help with finding a Ray teaching

[insanezenmistress]

I have been taking some notes "just in case anyone asks me for a reason"....esp my Pastor. I have only a few major topics outlined.


          Jesus is Saviour of the WHOLE world.

           Hell is not a sulfur pit.

          Judgement happens for belivers in the NOW.

          And, God produces Change, by Judgment.


OK...........but the other day the pastor started in ont hat Jesus was roaming around hell while he was dead bisiness.

             And i felt i needed to make a notes page about that, But can not, for all my researching, find one useable scrap of teaching. and i KNOW Ray has had a few sentences on the matter.

         But even after asking i think, " is it very important to growing in Christ that i keep THAT arguement?  Anyway if I can find it then i can make the desision about wether i need to keep it as a little proof of beliefe in my notes.


thank you.
  Justine

[Dennis Vogel]

I know Ray has spoken on this a few times, perhaps someone else knows where it is.

But you are chasing the wind if you think you can change anyone's mind if it's not his time to understand, especially a pastor.

Dennis

[insanezenmistress]

yeah, i sorta came to terms with that, even as i was closeing.

that perhaps there is a reason i cant get my hands on it.


            all the same i want it...(lol)

but form a different point of veiw. I feel my mission in life is jsut to be a livign witness, and speak truth and, the important arguements i have already, that other thing is something of theology, which even if i find out what Christ was doing while he was dead, does not change the fact that he is ALIVE and lives with me in my life, judgeing me now, and that , not over which theology i can defend. But rather He judges according to the liveing i am doing.

So if someone does help me gather the resource material, i will leave it pretty much here, to look into another time when i am so lead.


thank you.
Justine

[DuluthGA]

Hi Justine, by going to the main page of Ray's Email's Section then entering in the word 'prison' in the search box... that brought forth:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4646.0.html
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4662.0.html

Going to the main page of General Discussion and doing the same search brought forth a couple threads although not teachings by Ray about it but there's some great postings and food for thought:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2066.0.html
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1339.0.html

You can use the CTRL + F word search function on any of Ray's works on BibleTruths or here on Da Forum.  Word search also accepts two or three words to narrow the search.

[Kat]

Hi Justine,

Here is an excerpt from the article 'Lazarus and the Rich Man'

http://bible-truths.com/lazarus.html ---------------------

WHERE DID CHRIST GO WHEN HE DIED?

Read I Cor. 15 again.

"Christ died for our sins," "He was buried," "He rose again the third day."

All right, let's be Scripturally exact.

SPIRIT: When Christ "died," where did His "spirit" go? Scripture -- Luke 23:46: "Father, into thy hands am I committing My spirit."
Comment: Do other Scriptures verify this truth that at death man's spirit returns to God Who gave it? Yes.
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return to the God Who gave it" (Ecc. 12:7).
BODY: Where did Christ's "body" go at death? Matt. 27:59-60:
"And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and laid it in his own new tomb ... "
Comment: Do other Scriptures verify this truth that dead bodies are normally buried or entombed? Yes.
" ... David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." (Acts 2:29)
Do dead bodies normally begin to decay and stink after a few days? Yes.
"Martha ... Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days." (John 11:39).
Would Christ's body have started to decay had not God miraculously prevented it? Yes.
" ... nor was His flesh acquainted with decay." (Acts 2:3).
Was Christ (Himself) said to be where His body was? Yes. 
"They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre ... " (Acts 20:2).
Comment:
Do other Scriptures verify this truth that the "person" or "personality" if you will, or whatever you want the pronoun "He" to represent, is where the body is? Yes.
" ... David ... he is buried ... " (Acts 2:29) It's "his spirit" and "his soul" but it's "he" that is said to be buried with the body.
It was "The Son of man" who was entombed in the earth (Mat. 12:40 & I Cor. 15:3-5). "Christ [he] died ... [he] was buried ... [he] rose again ...
SOUL:
When Christ died, where did His soul go? "For Thou wilt not be forsaking my soul in the unseen [hades]" ( Acts 2:27). 
Comment:
Do other Scriptures verify this truth that at death the soul goes to the unseen (hades)? Yes. Psa. 49:15 " ... redeem my soul from the power of the grave [Heb. sheol]."



DEATH IS LIKE SLEEP

I have heard many jeer the idea that souls "sleep" in death. Although the phrase "soul sleep" itself is unscriptural, the idea that the dead are "sleeping" is most Scriptural.

"And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers..." (Deut. 31:16).

"And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou [David] shalt sleep with thy fathers. (II Sam. 7:12).

"David slept with his fathers..." (I Ki. 2:10).

"Solomon slept with his fathers..." I Ki. 11:43).

Job said, "...for now shall I sleep in the dust..." (Job 7:21).

Get this one: David said

"...lest I sleep the sleep of DEATH..." (Psa. 13:3).

"For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep [are dead]" (ICor.. 11:30).

"Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep ... the dead shall be raised..." ( I Cor. 15:51-52).

"...the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep" (I Thes. 4:14).

"...My daughter is even now dead ... the maid is not dead, but sleepeth." (Mat. 9:18 & 24).

"For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption." (Acts 13:36).

It is said even of our own Lord:

"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruit of them that slept" (I Cor. 15:20), etc., etc.

Now I believe all of these Scriptures. Either Abraham is dead, buried and sleeping with his fathers, just as Moses, David, etc., or these Scriptures can't be trusted.

By the way, where do we read of "heaven" in this parable? There is not the slightest hint of the word heaven in this parable! Abraham's "bosom" is no more heaven than my bosom is heaven.

Interestingly, not only did all these patriarchs go to sleep, but they went to sleep with their fathers, and many of their fathers were idolaters!

So there we have a dozen Scriptures stating that God likens death to sleep. In what way is being conscious and tortured in the flames of Hell analogous to "sleep?" God says death is "sleep." Now in what way is conscious torture in Hell fire analogous to "sleep?" In what way is a blissful life in Heaven analogous to "sleep?" Well, of course, it's not analogous at all. Yet God plainly says, many times, that death is "sleep" God awakens dead people out of sleep.

Therefore, the teaching that the dead Rich man and dead Lazarus are not asleep is wrong and unscriptural. It is only in the figurative language of a parable can it be said to be different.

Let me give you a Scripture that will "lay to rest" (pun intended) this issue once and for all. What happens after one dies:

"If a man die, shall he live again? All the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change comes. Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee; thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands." (Job 14:14-15).

When a person dies, he must: WAIT ... FOR APPOINTED TIME ... TILL CHANGE COMES ... GOD CALLS ... WE LIVE AGAIN...

When Jesus taught this parable there were no Greek Scriptures. So when this "rich man died" he went to Sheol [Heb. the unseen or imperceptible, the abode of the dead, the grave] It's the same sheol that Christ's soul went to at death:

Psalm 16:10--"For Thou will not leave my soul in the unseen [Sheol]."

This verse is quoted in the New Testament Greek:

Acts 2:27--"For Thou wilt not be forsaking my soul in the unseen [Gk. Hades]."

Sheol and Hades are synonymous. The Old Testament says Christ's soul went to "Sheol," the New says His soul went to "Hades."

We know that Christ was the "firstfruit" of them that slept (I Cor. 15:20, 42, 43, 52, 53, 55, I Thes. 4:16-18). The "dead in Christ" are now "ASLEEP" according to the Scriptures.
-----------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[DuluthGA]

Thank you Kat,

You are the definitive Resource Woman.   

[Ward]

Justine (& Everybody really...)

I hope that everybody that uses the forum has noticed the search function that is provided.  It works very well!  But if you want to search the pages of Bible-Truths.com itself, i.e. Ray's pages, there is a way:

Using Google to Search Ray's pages at Bible-Truths.com:

• Goto Google i.e. http://www.google.com
• Use the 'Web' search - see the upper left hand corner of the page. (This is the default search type. Skip this if you haven't selected another option. ex. News Video Images, etc)
• Click 'Advanced Search' located just to the right of the 'Search Button' (See resulting screen below)
• Enter your search terms in the 'Find Results' area
• Scroll down to 'Domain' option and...
  select 'Only' option
  in the 'return results from the site or domain' box enter bible-truths.com
• Then click 'Google Search' button to perform the requested search
  
• Shortcut - Skip going to the 'Advanced Search' area by adding 'site:bible-truths.com' (without the quotes) to your search criteria during a normal google search.

Once you get your results you will notice that they will all be from Bible-Truths.com or www.forums.bible-truths.com.  If you click on the title of each result, you will be taken to the appropriate page at Bible-Truths.com. Use 'Ctrl-F' to find your search criteria.

BUT... Notice that at the end of each hit there are usually two additional links, Cached and Similar pages.  Use the 'Cached' link and the resulting page will come from Google's copy of the page with the search terms hi-lighted.

I haven't seen this info provided by anybody here before.  Hope that I didn't just miss it.  Remember, this works when searching other sites, too.

Hope this helps somebody out there,
\/\/ard

[skydreamers]

Ward, that is too cool!  Thank you for showing us that....I've been looking for a way to do that but couldn't figure out how....awesome!

Peace and love,
Diana

[DuluthGA]

ZOW!  Looks interesting... Thanks Ward... will try it tomorrow when I'm not on my last leg. 

Nitey nite,
Janice

[Robin]

Thank you Ward!

[Kat]

Hi Ward,

Thanks for the info 
I'll post it in 'Forum Indexes & Info.'

mercy, peace and love
Kat