Free will

[Abed]

Amen and Thank you

God richly bless you all

[Phil3:10]

I personally do not feel our choices have much to do with GOD'S will.  HE places us where we are, brings the influences into our lives, determines our life span, elects and calls us and is in total, complete, unincumbered
control of everything. HE knows the beginning and the end, HE IS, HE WAS, and HE WILL FOREVER BE.
I just think HIM that HE has touched my life and I have quit trying to be holy and to only do what HE has asked us to do in the 1st and 2nd Greatest Commandments. I fail, HE forgive, I ask and HE answers. I may not understand but he is patient. HE desires that we seek him with all we have within us. Lets just do that and CHRIST will take care of all the rest.
Phil3:10

[gmik]

Welcome Abed!

Your post cleared up some things for me!!! I had never thought about the fact that my "free will" action could actually thwart the omniscience of God and then so how could He BE God!!!!

I know I have believed in free will since reading Ray, but some things seem foggy and that was one of them!!!!  Much clearer to me now!!!

Sonofone,  God Bless your humility.

Great thread and posts by all.  Thanks to all.

Gosh, I had a bad typo!!

[Fedex Guy]

Just a point on free will. Christian leaders claim we have free will. I often hear "God doesn't send anyone to hell, they choose to go there by rejecting Christ"

Anyway, it was God who put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden, right? Now, some claim he did that so we would have free will. In other words, we need the possibility to sin and disobey God in order to have free will or else we would be just robots. However, every Christian I know is sure that there is no sin, nor temptation to sin, in heaven. Does that mean God really wants us to be robots? Will we be robots in heaven?

Not looking for an answer here, just pointing out an inconsistency of logic.

[rjsurfs]

Hi FedEx Guy,

This is definitely one of the harder learnings to understand and accept when coming out of Babylon.  No one would... or chooses to go to hell. 

What stood out to me in your post was

every Christian I know...

I'm sure that is true and your experience.  Christianity will not let go of this idol of the heart... this supposition that man has the power to thwart the very will of God.

We make choices... just not uncaused choices.  Our choices are driven by circumstances... controlled by God who is All in All.

Ray spends pages and pages (4 parts) within the Lake of Fire series exposing this myth of free will.  Please take time to read it... read it twice.

I found no basis for believing in free will upon reading Ray's paper... it is simply not scriptural.  But yes, it is taught universally in the church of man.  Ray gives much scriptural testimony to just who is in control in his Lake of Fire series... but, no we are not robots.  The Good News is actually good.  I encourage you to read it and be blessed.

This section begins in part XV of the Lake of Fire series here:
http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html

Bobby

[psalmsinger]

After Ray's teaching on the Sabbath, I tend to think that in God's work of the first 6 days, He also planned His interventions (such as the tower of Babel, Jesus birth, death, and resurrection, numerous etc.'s) to reveal Himself to individuals, groups, and even nations.  God changes not, He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.  His plan is perfect and doesn't need to be changed to accommodate our bad choices.  He is resting still and doing His good works on His Sabbath.  That's why it is revealed in the new testament to enter into His Rest.  Jesus is our Sabbath.  I really loved that teaching.......it added more icing to the cake! Thank you Lord for sending us teachers of the truth!  Hallelujah!!!

Rest in the Lord,

Barbara

[willieH]

willieH: Hi sonofone... Peace 

Though (after reading thru the thread) I realize you have come to know that man does NOT have "free will" (since your first post on this thread)...

In study, I have found that one of the BLATANT identifying notes of MOST FALSEHOOD's, is the ABSENCE of mention in the Word... Teachings such as "The TRINTY", "the RAPTURE", "FREE WILL", "ETERNAL SEPARATION from God", "going to Heaven",  etc...

Even though most of this is covered by others here, ...I thought I'd go ahead and post this answer anyway... 

Music man here is a question for your consideration or to any who will read this post for that matter. Is it possible for man to prevent Gods will? I'll give my response so that you know where I am coming from. My answer is yes.

I think this is wrong bro... How can CLAY ascend to "think" that it might transcend or dictate the shaping of itself, by the POTTER???  And note that shaping, whether negative or positive, as emerging from, and dictated BY the CLAY?

If this is so, then I would ask, HOW is GOD then, working ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL? (Eph 1:11)

If man's "will" is able to thwart GOD's "WILL" even ONCE, ...then that particular working would be noted as after the counsel of MAN's "will",  And would negate the statement made in Eph 1:11...

What it amounts to, is  that what appeared to be "thwarting",  was simply a part of the COUNSEL of GOD's WILL, which (as the carnal would see it as) appeared to be the will of the man, THWARTING the WILL of GOD...   

The Apostles were even shadowed to the PURPOSE which CHRIST both lived and placed before them... They later found out that EVERYTHING came down, as it was APPOINTED to be... And even though they didnt (at first) understand, later... the light was revealed to them... this same process happens to us as well...

As the JEWS viewed the Death of CHRIST...

They saw this as THEIR decision or "choice" (that CHRIST be killed and  thereby SILENCE Him)... but in the end, THEIR "supposed will" or "decision" only FUFILLED the WILL of GOD, which was... that the Lamb be slain to SAVE the WORLD... and their MURDER of the SAVIOR, only "turned up the VOLUME!"

Men are only "choosing" according to the DECLARATION of GOD... GOD's WORD has already (in ETERNITY), noted the course of man, its beginning, middle, and end... and that COURSE cannot be altered one iota, otherwise, the SCRIPTURES are broken...

The WORD, is the WAY (course/route), the TRUTH, and the LIFE...AND, ...CREATOR... and cannot be altered by those "created" who "walk" the course/route of this life, which is already (Eternally) noted... (Is 46-10-11 / Eph 1:11 / Rom 9:16-21)

As the bible says all we like sheep have gone astray and turned to our own way.What way is this ?

The reason the sheep are gone astray, is that GOD concluded it to be so: (Rom 11:32) GOD is taking "our choices" and working them together for GOOD... even the "bad ones"

I have said before that JUDAS is possibly the 2nd most important man ever... for if he had not done what he DID, ...we would STILL be without a SAVIOR...  Was it really JUDAS' "choice"?  Did it really "EMERGE" from him?

NO... He was chosen to DO what he DID, from the foundation of the WORLD...

One word about the "ROBOT" thing... if it turns out that this is all we are (living "robots")... how many are going to wish GOD to give them death or non-existence, because of it ("robothood")?  

...willieH 

[gmik]

Good Stuff here.  This is meat of the Word.  Thanks all posters.  This helps so much!

[Deborah-Leigh]

WELCOME to the Forum WillieH!

It appears that you have a firm grasp on the teachings of the Myth of Free Will. To add to what you have observed from LOF 15 A Ray teaches quote : To the question, "...who has resisted His will?" the answer is: EVERYONE! But when properly translated, to the question, "who has resisted His purpose?" the answer is: ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!

God has a will and God has a plan and purpose to reach that will. And no small part of reaching His desired will is to set men against His will, just as He did with Pharaoh. But no one has ever hindered God's plan and purpose in reaching that goal and stated will. God's will, will be done in His time.http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html

And then from LOF 2 this quote exposes and reveals the idol of the heart that keeps the eyes blind and ears deaf to the great Sovereignty of God : God follows His own spiritual laws. "Free will" sounds like a marvelous and magical thing -- it is rather, however, the god of stupidity. It is the height of man's foolishness and human wisdom. It is both ungodly and unscriptural! It is an affront to the Sovereignty of God. Man and Satan are not deities that can operate independently of the Creator! The theory is a hoax, a farce, a sham. Its only reality is as an IDOL OF THE HEART which will be burned out of every son whom God scourges.http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html

Faith surely can only be present in the absence of the illusion of having free will.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[willieH]

WELCOME to the Forum WillieH!

It appears that you have a firm grasp on the teachings of the Myth of Free Will. To add to what you have observed from LOF 15 A Ray teaches quote : To the question, "...who has resisted His will?" the answer is: EVERYONE! But when properly translated, to the question, "who has resisted His purpose?" the answer is: ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!

God has a will and God has a plan and purpose to reach that will. And no small part of reaching His desired will is to set men against His will, just as He did with Pharaoh. But no one has ever hindered God's plan and purpose in reaching that goal and stated will. God's will, will be done in His time.http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html

And then from LOF 2 this quote exposes and reveals the idol of the heart that keeps the eyes blind and ears deaf to the great Sovereignty of God : God follows His own spiritual laws. "Free will" sounds like a marvelous and magical thing -- it is rather, however, the god of stupidity. It is the height of man's foolishness and human wisdom. It is both ungodly and unscriptural! It is an affront to the Sovereignty of God. Man and Satan are not deities that can operate independently of the Creator! The theory is a hoax, a farce, a sham. Its only reality is as an IDOL OF THE HEART which will be burned out of every son whom God scourges.http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html

Faith surely can only be present in the absence of the illusion of having free will.

Peace to you

Arcturus

I can dig it, me new bratha! 

I find many of Ray's teachings spot-on! 

I always look forward to new installments on his site...    Some of my favorite "L Ray" comments are:

"Oh really?"  ...and,

"Am I going to fast for anyone?" 

...willieH 

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Willie,

It is great to have you here and I have to say your post was right on the money.

His Peace to you,

Joe

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Joe! 

Hi Willie,

It is great to have you here and I have to say your post was right on the money.

His Peace to you,

Joe

Thanks for the warm welcome Joe... I look forward to participating here in discussion! 

...willieH 

[Deborah-Leigh]

Yes the "Oh REALLY" one is a real classic! and Wrong again Pale Face LOL...That is so cute!

Peace to you

Arcturus

[willieH]

Yes the "Oh REALLY" one is a real classic! and Wrong again Pale Face LOL...That is so cute!

Peace to you

Arcturus

peaCe...

In  JESUS...willieH 

[Deborah-Leigh]

AMEN BRO'  and Thank you!