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Author Topic: Free will  (Read 6088 times)

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sonofone

  • Guest
Free will
« on: September 10, 2007, 12:57:54 PM »

I have a question concerning free ill after reading Rays teaching. What about the flood and the tower of babal? This seems to suggest that God had to step in and change the course of man because man was out of control. Ray also mentioned about a law of perfect performace,and a law of mistakes I am interested in getting feedback on this as well thanks.
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lilitalienboi16

  • Guest
Re: Free will
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2007, 07:30:21 PM »

I have a question concerning free ill after reading Rays teaching. What about the flood and the tower of babal? This seems to suggest that God had to step in and change the course of man because man was out of control. Ray also mentioned about a law of perfect performace,and a law of mistakes I am interested in getting feedback on this as well thanks.

Re-read and listen to the audio's. Your questions are answered.

Love to you,

Alex
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musicman

  • Guest
Re: Free will
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2007, 09:45:44 PM »

Look, even if God were to stay out of the way and let things happen as they may (if this were even possible), we still wouldn't have a free will.  Because, free will is also a scientific and psychological impossibility.  If churchy says look, it was your free will to scratch your nose just then?  I would say no.  It itched and that caused me to decide to scratch my nose.  Then I suppose churchy would ask, why did you will your nose to itch? 
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gmik

  • Guest
Re: Free will
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2007, 11:32:02 PM »

 ;D ;D

Good one Musicman :D
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GODSown1

  • Guest
Re: Free will
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2007, 02:55:24 AM »

:D :D Amen! lil bo Alex,
                                & Amen 2 d@ musicman :), GODBLESS! uZ! all..
        muchLOVE!! Pera
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sonofone

  • Guest
Re: Free will
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2007, 11:48:35 AM »

Music man here is a question for your consideration or to any who will read this post for that matter. Is it possible for man to prevent Gods will? I'll give my response so that you know where I am coming from. My answer is yes. I believe that man has free will in that he can choose or make choices even as Ray agrees. I do not believe that man can make choices that lead to righteousness.As the bible says all we like sheep have gone astray and turned to our own way.What way is this ? The way of sin or missing the mark which causes and leads to death. I believe this is the only choice man can make.The problem with man is explained perfectly by Paul in the book of Romans ch 5 vs12-14,ch 7 vs 15-25. There exist, rather before the fall of man if you will, or afterwards,the law of sin which works in us. There is a duality if you will that goes back to the fruit of our ancestors;good and evil. Here Paul explains how it works.So then with this law at work it is impossible for us to please God,consequently in our current state we can not enjoy the plans that God has for us. Thus we resist or prevent his will for us in this life. Even those who were destroyed in the flood and many afterwards who were destroyed for disobedience sake so stopped the will of God for themselves in there lives that God had to remove them from the face of the earth.Call it a mercy kill if you will. Often times when a horse breaks it's leg it is put to death because it is next to impossible to heal the break which in turn would cause a slow painful death.God in his mercy puts an end to our miserable existence through death.So what am I saying?Man has power to thwart the plan of God?Emphatically NO. For the creature was made subject to vanity,NOT WILLINGLY,but by reason of HIM who hath subjected the same in hope.Man forces God to go from plan A-Z at every turn or whim of mans will? not exactly.In eternity God is already every thing that he says he is. He is the lord and changes not. He is not like us in the dimension of time becoming God.He already is God. The same statement can be applied to man When God said let us make man in our image it was done. What we fail to do is realize what is happening in the context of time. Time is temporal, it was created for us. Time is the vehicle used by God to fulfill the statement let us make man. Time shows us in slow motion just how we went from man to God in slow motion.So in the element of time we see and experience God in a limited way. What may appear to be God resorting to plan b-z is only showing the process or steps necessary to make man in his image. God is not changing,neither is he changing his mind as it sometimes clearly appears he is.We are merely experiencing God in phases as it relates to time. We can not experience the fullness of God in this carnal body or mind so we see through a glass darkly. God has not resorted to plan B's and C's based on the whims or free will of man.However in the unfolding of Gods plan for us he has shown us in the space of time the steps that were necessary to take, to bring us where he wants us to be. 
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Free will
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2007, 12:07:02 PM »


Hi sonofone,

To your question;

Quote
Is it possible for man to prevent Gods will?

God's plan for this human race is exactly as He desires it to be to the most minute detail.  He controls all things.

Rom 8:28  And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

Phi 2:13  for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

We do make choices, but there are causes behind every choice, man always does exactly as God wants it to be.  He is sovereign.

Pro 16:9  A man's heart plans his way, but Jehovah directs his steps.

I found this session in Ray's part 2 of the Lake of fire series.  I thought it might help with your question.

http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html ------------------

If people could only see that God is not a carnal-minded human as themselves. He is GOD -- The Great Creator, Sustainer, and Saviour of all -- GOD! God has a plan, a procedure, and a purpose for this creation. Precious few have even a basic understanding of what it is. Nothing in creation is out of control from Godís perspective. Nothing ever surprises God or catches Him off guard. God does not view the activity of His creation from His celestial vantage point unaware of what people will do next. God knows all in advance. God doesnít just know what "will" happen in the future, He causes all that will happen in the future. God IS the future. God is the Alpha and the Omega -- He IS the beginning; He IS the end, and nothing can be different from what God says MUST BE.

We have got to get away from the "God allows certain things" mentality and syndrome. God CREATES, God DESTROYS, God HEALS, God KILLS, God CAUSES, God BRINGS ABOUT. God SAVES. God does not "allow" things that He has not foreordained to be! This popular doctrine among the religions of the world is utter unscriptural foolishness. The teaching suggests that man does things that God had no previous knowledge of, does not approve of, wishes would have never happened, but nonetheless, He "allows" them. Certainly He "allows" them in as much as He does not "disallow" them, but this still begs the question as to their true origin. God is the Creator, not Satan.

"For OF Him, and THROUGH Him, and TO Him, are all things: to Whom be glory for ever.  Amen" (KJV Rom. 11:36).

"Seeing that OUT of Him and THROUGH Him and FOR Him is all..." (Concordant Version).

Does this also include EVIL?

"That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me, I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, AND CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do ALL THESE THINGS" (Isaiah 45:6-7).

There are many many things in life that are very hard to accept and deal with in our weakened spiritual state. I cannot, after all this time, get the images of the Twin Towers collapsing on thousands of people, out of my mind. Or maybe even worse, the men, women and children in the four planes that knew they were destined to a violent disintegration in fire! I get teary-eyed every time I think of it. It is extremely traumatic to contemplate. And now another shuttle disaster! One at the hands of evil terrorists; the other an accident, fate, providence? But what is gained by trying to take all of these things out of the realm of Godís responsibility? God and God only has the "ability-to-respond." Man is not running Godís creation, God is. How can any doubt it?

We all have our own personal financial, health, social, mental, and spiritual trials in addition to thousands of other problems in our home, community, state, nation and world which can easily overwhelm us if we are not well grounded. Do we think all these things just invented themselves and brought themselves into existence? I tell you No; these are all the design of an all-wise God.

People freely admit that God knows every sparrow that falls, the individual names of one hundred billion billion stars, and the number of hairs on five and one half billion peopleís head at any given second of the day, but that He is, nonetheless, just not concerned with the smaller details of your life.
-------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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sonofone

  • Guest
Re: Free will
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2007, 01:56:59 PM »

Thank you Kat for your response to my second question. I would like to get feedback to my original question as well. I still have received no response to that question as of yet. Let me say that when you say.Gods plan for this human race is exactly as he desires it to be to the most minute detail. he controls all things. You have to realize the ramifications of that statement. First off let me say quickly that I agree with this statement.I further agree that God is not blindsided by mans choices or that unbeknownst to God that man has become a runaway train.To the contrary God has caused or allowed it to happen. God in his choosing could have placed man in the garden allowed him to eat from the tree of life Jesus, and not from the tree of carnality or good and evil. How then could Jesus have come. I believe as Ray does that Adam was mot made perfect and then failed. He was made imperfect if you will in that he already had a will or a nature that was contrary to the will of God. If this were not the case it would have been impossible for him to fall regardless of the temptation. Jesus like Adam was tested at all points yet without sin. He too was tempted of the devil yet he never surrendered to the will or carnal nature of man.Notice the promise to Eve was the same to Jesus,that he would make him as God.gen 3 vs 5,matthew 4vs8-9.In both cases the devil wanted to throw them off course. what course? The course of becoming, in the sense of Adam, and the course of being, as it relates to Jesus, God.And so Adam in his choosing resisted that perfect will of God; however Jesus in his resisting the devil caused satan to flee. Thus becoming our pathway and example to get to our ultimate end. That is why we must be born again. For if we remain in the old man Adam we die and literally stop the will of God for our lives,yet in Christ we live.So what then of the ramifications I mentioned earlier? God has allowed everything that has happened to mankind in his choosing.That is to say everyone who God killed or allowed to die at the hands of another from the very first murder to the very present one all of it is to Gods charge. God has caused or allowed evil to reign so that salvation could only be found in and through his son. So then we have to see that when God said let us make man in our image,he was not talking about the body. Afterall God is spirit, the body was and is the vehicle necessary to walk out this making God was referring to. And we have to further admit that the process of election was also included in this statement. God chooses who he will save.romans 8 vs28-31Conversley God chooses who he will reject. and so free will or not God is greater than our free will.
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ciy

  • Guest
Re: Free will
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2007, 02:21:36 PM »

Son of One

You say that no one has answered your first question. 

God caused the flood exactly the way it happened and God caused the people to build the Tower of Babel exactly the way it happened.  It is all for His good purpose and not for our purpose or our carnal understanding.  It is to show us that many are called and few are chosen.  So trust God and live.

Man has zero, zilch free will.  He does not even chose his flavor of chewing gum.  God causes that choice.
There are no little decisions and no big decisions they are all the same.

Hope this helps.
CIY
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insanezenmistress

  • Guest
Re: Free will
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2007, 02:48:34 PM »

  ok

     out of left feild lady is back.  I have having trouble following. I belvie Son of one is asking about something else. As if he isn't getting his thogouht out right. he has no disagreement with "the paper" of the argument but somthing is not settleing.

   thats my interp. and baised on that interp the only form of words or advice i am getting is loosely as follows.

       i have a sin i struggle with offitan  :o no really i do....me and god fight ALL THE time about it.  I am like, "well god ya know.......IF YOU WANTED ME CLEAN........and he smiles and says i want you to learn, i want you to try...or some other silly teacher to student kind of answer.

But i have had things like this occur, where i get a warning about something "dont do that today" and ignore it and then something "bad" happens related to that thing.   As if i had trouble with speeding, and god keeps working on my obedience in that area, then one day he tells me REALLY dont speed...and my disobedience leads to a ticket that day.

whats my point....good question.......my point is that god does not go to plan b and give me a ticket. but as far as i am concerned it seems that way , since in my little mind  my ticket was the result of not listening that day. The other days must have been grace, and Who knows how many days are grace now that i learned my lesson about speeding.


He works things out , i think even our little wills are part of his lesson plan. Ultimately it is all god's doing but we do not live in the Ultimate at this time.  While i get my tickets or see his mercy by slwoing down jsut when we tells me to the thing i am learning ( that leads to the ultimate) is surrender and how to obey his voice from my immeditate experience.

[/i]
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sonofone

  • Guest
Re: Free will
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2007, 03:35:03 PM »

Hi ciy and insane I wrote a reply but it did not post so here it goes again. First off thanks for the response,I really appreciate it. This is how I learn and grow. Iron sharpens Iron. If I have a rebuttal it is only to seek further clarity in the end we may have to agree to disagree and thats fine. Ciy if your statement is true about the flood and tower of Babel do we then disregard what God has said concerning them both in Gen 5 vs 5-7 and Gen 11 vs 5-9. All of which suggest that man has a will that opposes God which in fact causes God to react or curtail so that his good and perfect will is accomplished. Insane I received your pm and have responded,so hope to hear from you soon.
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ciy

  • Guest
Re: Free will
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2007, 04:25:21 PM »

Son of One

As you know, we do not disregard any of God's word.  It is all extremely important to our experience in this age.

Yes God made us flesh that rebells against God.  We have God given pride that must be purged out of us, but until it is we want to be God.  We make God in our image and, as in Bablyon today, we try to work our way to God with our hands.  It is all God's plan.  We have no say so in it except to submit in our minds and hearts to it.

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Romans 8:20

God's ways are not our ways.
CIY
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GODSown1

  • Guest
Re: Free will
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2007, 08:23:40 PM »

All I have 2 say & Totally cum 2 believe is,
                                                         "GOD is Most assuredly in no 'doudtly'?? :) in CONTROL!", Hardowt!!, scripture backing!! Read Kats lol! :), GODS!!!! Will!!! be Done always! has, always! Will, GODBLESS! & may HIS most Precious! & Glorious! PEACE b upon U ALL!!!...
                                                          muchLOVE!! Pera
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sonofone

  • Guest
Re: Free will
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2007, 11:35:18 PM »

It only took me two months from the time I wrote this to see that man has no freewill. ;)Delivering this baby,was very hard indeed LOL.Thanks all for bearing with me.I'm still studying and lurking,talk to you soon.
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ciy

  • Guest
Re: Free will
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2007, 12:29:12 AM »

Great to hear that you are still growing in the knowledge of God, Sonofone.
Keep on seeking and believing the truth.  It is meat and it will nourish your bones.

CIY
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Craig

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  • Posts: 4282
  • There are two kinds of cops.The quick and the dead
Re: Free will
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2007, 12:50:45 AM »

Good for you, you were a good 5 months quicker than me.

Craig
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psalmsinger

  • Guest
Re: Free will
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2007, 08:22:27 AM »

Making choices reminds me of studying the Probabilty in math once upon a time:)  Wikipedia:  Probability is the likelihood that something is the case or will happen. Probability theory is used extensively in areas such as statistics, mathematics, science and philosophy to draw conclusions about the likelihood of potential events and the underlying mechanics of complex systems.  Humans spend entire careers gathering statistics and information to determine risk factors and outcomes in every type of situation in order to make decisions regarding every facet of living.  God takes no risks in His creation.  He knows the expected outcome, He is the creator, He is also the God and creator of probability and charts the perfect outcome of every creation. What a Mind God has!


Rest in the Lord,

Barbara
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Abed

  • Guest
Re: Free will
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2007, 02:28:59 PM »

Sonofone,
The Soverignty of God is book ended and there's no room for debate. If one's actions determines God's sovereignty, then His Omnipotence seizes to exist. For a man's actions to influence God's will is to essentially say God changes His mind because that person's actions determined God's ultimate will.  Like Ray said in his writings, God causes all that will happen in the future. God IS the future. God is the Alpha and the Omega -- He IS the beginning; He IS the end, and NOTHING can be different from what God says MUST BE. Sometimes outcome of things portray God changed as a result of perhaps what we did, that's relative speaking but in the absolute spiritual sense, God does not change. Infact this could be a touchy subject since we are all carnal. For instance, wat happens if we ask people to pray for us on a particular matter? If the outcome is favourable, does that mean our prayers or and or the intercessory prayers changed God's mind? Spiritually speaking I dont think so because like Ray said, God put the circumstances in motion by what we prayed for and the inspiration came from HIM alone that's why the folks that prayed on that matter WERE able to pray. Simply and essentially ALL IS OF GOD. God never changes and no one can change any circumstance that God has not already  forordained and that's my belief in a nutsell  (Eph 1:11) Isaiah 46:10
You see if my actions can thwart the will of the Most High God, then He ceases to be Omnipotent. But God forbid..   The sovereignty of God is the truth and that's only spiritually discerned I believe
This could be a tough subject to grasp without the aid of the Holy Spirit so let's all continue to pray for understanding and spiritual discernment

Regards to you and God bless

Abed
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sonofone

  • Guest
Re: Free will
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2007, 03:23:25 PM »

Sonofone,
The Soverignty of God is book ended and there's no room for debate. If one's actions determines God's sovereignty, then His Omnipotence seizes to exist. For a man's actions to influence God's will is to essentially say God changes His mind because that person's actions determined God's ultimate will.  Like Ray said in his writings, God causes all that will happen in the future. God IS the future. God is the Alpha and the Omega -- He IS the beginning; He IS the end, and NOTHING can be different from what God says MUST BE. Sometimes outcome of things portray God changed as a result of perhaps what we did, that's relative speaking but in the absolute spiritual sense, God does not change. Infact this could be a touchy subject since we are all carnal. For instance, wat happens if we ask people to pray for us on a particular matter? If the outcome is favourable, does that mean our prayers or and or the intercessory prayers changed God's mind? Spiritually speaking I dont think so because like Ray said, God put the circumstances in motion by what we prayed for and the inspiration came from HIM alone that's why the folks that prayed on that matter WERE able to pray. Simply and essentially ALL IS OF GOD. God never changes and no one can change any circumstance that God has not already  forordained and that's my belief in a nutsell  (Eph 1:11) Isaiah 46:10
You see if my actions can thwart the will of the Most High God, then He ceases to be Omnipotent. But God forbid..   The sovereignty of God is the truth and that's only spiritually discerned I believe
This could be a tough subject to grasp without the aid of the Holy Spirit so let's all continue to pray for understanding and spiritual discernment

Regards to you and God bless

Abed

Cheer up Abed,God has indeed answered prayer on my behalf,clearly showing me the folly of my original post. I now accept that man has no freewill.It took some time,but the baby has been delivered.
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Free will
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2007, 03:49:44 PM »

Hello Abed

Welcome to the Forum.

Your grasp of the topic is well articulated.

I too believe that the myth of Free Will is so vast a Truth  so encouragement into the direction of belief is so precious.

This thread is most informative and is for me uplifting to see you sonofone reaching deeper insights.

Peace be to you

Arcturus :)
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