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Author Topic: Jesus Church?  (Read 8167 times)

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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Jesus Church?
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2007, 02:47:33 PM »

 

The inspiration came from a book one of the members loaned me called; The Kingdom of God is a PARTY, by Tony Campolo.  As you may imagine, I am not going to teach with authority concerning doctrine.  The folks would listen and even participate in the discussion, but the doctrines wouldn't remain with them because they would just filter them out automatically through the traditions they have always known.  It is my hope however that they will come away with less fear of the future in their minds.


Hi Bob,

I did a quick search on the book you mentioned, I could not get past the first paragraph where Tony Campolo states;


"The Kingdom is a Party"

In Chapter 14 of Deuteronomy, beginning at the 22nd verse, we read about tithing. According to Jewish law, every year all Jewish families came to Jerusalem. They brought with them one-tenth of all the money they earned that past year. (Tony's version)

Now for the actual Scripture;

Deu 14:22  Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
 
Deu 14:23  And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.

Does anyone see money mentioned, I am sorry but I can not see this mixing of truth with lies as a good thing, if someone wants to belong to a social club maybe it would be better to join one that does not misrepresent God's Word or His plan and purpose.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

P.S. That was just the first 2 sentences of the very first paragraph!




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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Jesus Church?
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2007, 02:49:21 PM »

Joe this seems to be a perfect response to another question I have going called Peter Walked On Water.Thanks!

Fantastic, I always love a 2 for 1 deal!  :D

You are very welcome,

Joe
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: Jesus Church?
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2007, 04:14:31 PM »

I do think that when we create hypothetical situations predicated on what we will do of our own mind and reasoning rather than the faith He will provide an answer at the time the situation arises is carnal thinking, I am not trying to sidestep anything but the result of our own efforts will always produce spiritual failure.

Hi Joe,

You have nailed it here. It is God whom provides answers when we need them; it is man who through lack of patience tries to prempt the outcome of an event that may never occur. All that one needs ever do is to pray for the wisdom to know what to do, the courage to do it, and the strength to see it through. If one truly believes that God will provide all we need when it is needed, one needs not worry or fear anything.

However, it is indeed a blurry line of what a true believer should do. I expect no one would hesistate grabbing a child as it stepped in front of a car; likewise calling for an ambulance at the scene of an accident. You bring up a very good point and I quote: "do we take up arms against terrorists, do we become vigilante's in our cities and neighborhoods?"

By all means I do not believe that one should turn a blind eye and ignore obvious signs of terriorism, and then learn that a school of 5,000 children were killed with napalm. What is the difference between helping prevent a child from being run over and 5,000 from being poisoned? I think very little, unless one feels afraid to draw attention to ones self.

Of course this is all hyperthectical and is pointless even in discussion; however, I do feel that we are to treat others as we would like others to treat us, as you stated. Coming full circle, what any of us will do in a situtation might depend soley on ones faith in God to see one through.

Psa 23:4  Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou [art] with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

Thanks Joe :)

Love in Christ,
Darren
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DuluthGA

  • Guest
Re: Jesus Church?
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2007, 04:34:51 PM »

"I have to admit while reading certain responses that suggest I need only read more of Rays materials to get my answers, works on my carnal nature. In other words THEMS FIGHTING WORDS TO ME!!!"

Sorry, Sonofone, it was not my intent to irritate you.  I thought I was giving very worthwhile advice.

Janice
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Jesus Church?
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2007, 04:48:44 PM »


By all means I do not believe that one should turn a blind eye and ignore obvious signs of terriorism, and then learn that a school of 5,000 children were killed with napalm. What is the difference between helping prevent a child from being run over and 5,000 from being poisoned? I think very little, unless one feels afraid to draw attention to ones self.

Of course this is all hyperthectical and is pointless even in discussion; however, I do feel that we are to treat others as we would like others to treat us, as you stated. Coming full circle, what any of us will do in a situtation might depend soley on ones faith in God to see one through.

Psa 23:4  Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou [art] with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

Thanks Joe :)

Love in Christ,
Darren

You are very welcome Darren,

Yes, if we have His Spirit within us then we will want to treat others as He would, worrying about what may or may not happen tomorrow is not something we are commanded to do, just the opposite in fact. Look at Matthew 6:33 & 34,
(the Amplified Version is translated clearer than the KJV here);

Matthew 6

33But seek (aim at and strive after) first of all His kingdom and His righteousness His way of doing and being right, and then all these things taken together will be given you besides.

34So do not worry or be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will have worries and anxieties of its own. Sufficient for each day is its own trouble.

His Peace to you,

Joe




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ez2u

  • Guest
Re: Jesus Church?
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2007, 06:22:56 PM »

Hi sonofone  thanks for posting this it has really help me to see clearer on several topics.  I knew coming out of Babylon was a spiritual working too but as I began to read this post I realize that if you are a drug addict you don't hang with the old neighborhood.  It will drag you back down.  Now I know that was extreme but.... this is important work.  The other thing is  I would like to share is that when I first started reading and participating in the discussions, even though a lot of The Word was scattered in my brain This was different  it was condense and right on track, it isn't just my mind thinking a little here and a little there about these new thoughts but people with vision.To be honest I felt like I would have a mentally breakdown.  Things inside my mind was moving pretty fast my brain was too.  A stirring began to go on and I was not happy with what I have been seeing in my daily life coming up.  I have seen wrong here, thats normal but I have seen a lot of compassion here in helping me through  as my mind begin to adjust to  this bigger picture and a lot of people who know the truth, "Praise God" and speak it!!!  What I am trying to say it a bit of an adjustment coming into this forum even when you know The Word.  love peggy
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sonofone

  • Guest
Re: Jesus Church?
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2007, 07:00:05 PM »

Duluth, I started to pm you but decided it might actually be helpful for everyone to hear what I was going to tell you. It is rarely intentional when we slight another person. Just the other day my Wife and I were discussing how we often offend or slight people while being completely oblivious to it. Women can probably relate to this more than men. A missed compliment, being the second person to tell your wife happy birthday.In this case saying something with one intention,that is received another way. To be sure when I here something that appears to be offensive, I get offended. I do however leave room for the fact that I could be misinterpreting the intent. This is the reason why I check my carnal nature,before I respond in anger.As I said in my post which you reference I thank all of you for every response to my post. You help me grow,and keep me sharp.I hope that the fact that our responses can sometimes fall on a persons ear with the wrong intent does not stop us from posting what we believe is good information,at least not on my behalf. Post on please. If I truly have or sense that a problem might exist between myself and someone posting I would most likely pm you to get clarity so that the original post can keep moving. Thanks
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ciy

  • Guest
Re: Jesus Church?
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2007, 07:13:57 PM »

Maybe these verses will help us all see clearer just how important it is to forsake the world and seek the truth. 

16Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
   17And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
   18And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
   19And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
   20And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
   21So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
   22And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
   23And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
   24For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.
   25And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
   26If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.


Our God is a jealous God.  We can all list reasons not to leave Bablyon in order to seek the fullness of God, but when it comes down to it there is no excuse.  A large part of the bible is God trying to get His people to worship only Him and not to go a-whoring after other religions, but even today we have a hard time giving up those "leeks and onions" of Egypt.
CIY

« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 07:28:12 PM by ciy »
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sonofone

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Re: Jesus Church?
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2007, 07:21:28 PM »

I've been thinking about a scripture hear the last couple of days and believe it fits in with this discussion.Matthew 16 vs 18-19 Jesus said that the GATES OF HELL WOULD NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT! i IMMEDIATELY THOUGHT ABOUT THE SCRIPTURE OVER IN Matthew 23 vs 11. I believes the gates are the current Church leaders which teach doctrines that blind the minds of those seeking God, Jesus said that they would not prevail against his church. What do you think?
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indianabob

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  • Posts: 1866
Re: Jesus Church?
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2007, 02:38:15 AM »

 

The inspiration came from a book one of the members loaned me called; The Kingdom of God is a PARTY, by Tony Campolo.  As you may imagine, I am not going to teach with authority concerning doctrine.  The folks would listen and even participate in the discussion, but the doctrines wouldn't remain with them because they would just filter them out automatically through the traditions they have always known.  It is my hope however that they will come away with less fear of the future in their minds.


Hi Bob,

I did a quick search on the book you mentioned, I could not get past the first paragraph where Tony Campolo states;


"The Kingdom is a Party"

In Chapter 14 of Deuteronomy, beginning at the 22nd verse, we read about tithing. According to Jewish law, every year all Jewish families came to Jerusalem. They brought with them one-tenth of all the money they earned that past year. (Tony's version)

Now for the actual Scripture;

Deu 14:22  Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
 
Deu 14:23  And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.

Does anyone see money mentioned, I am sorry but I can not see this mixing of truth with lies as a good thing, if someone wants to belong to a social club maybe it would be better to join one that does not misrepresent God's Word or His plan and purpose.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

P.S. That was just the first 2 sentences of the very first paragraph!


= = = =
12:30  9/14/07

Dear Friend Joe,

I repent of not being more clear and detailed in my short letter to encourage JavaJoe and Gregor to be patient while separating themselves from error and yet maintaining good relations with the community in which they live.  I know that you agree with what I had in mind, but didn't explain clearly, because I have read your thoughtful, gracious advice to others on a similar topic that doesn't come readily to mind.

I will begin my humble defense with the statement that I am in no way recommending the mentioned book or its author. My reason for mentioning it is that the member who lent me the book will hopefully be considering an additional aspect of God's love that the author didn't mention and they will be pleased to know that I did read the book out of love and respect for their thoughtfulness. 

Keep in mind please, that this is a house church bible study that is maintained with about ten retired persons who have no where else to go and I am just visiting the infirm, the lonely, the uncalled to try to bring a little cheer and to exercise my own compassion for others.  They do not believe in the trinity, they don't teach tithing as compulsory only as from the heart and they are all above 65 years of age. In fact Ferris Zechiel will be 100 next birthday.

Next please allow me to mention that verses 25 -26 do instruct the traveling celebrant to turn the produce into money and to share it graciously with all who are in need and in attendance at the 'party'.  It is not intended as an offering to God or the temple, it is to be spent lavishly on oneself, ones friends and the needy.   This celebration is a fore taste of the joy we will find in the Kingdom and was an inspiration to the Jews of Jesus time.

Lastly, I agree completely and wholeheartedly that we should not mix truth with lies.  I am working on becoming more Christlike as are all of us in BT and the forum, but I am just learning how to handle this responsibility and I can see no responsible and loving way to just walk away from people who have shown me only love and respect.

I can reassure you that I will not lie to them or as much as it is in my control, let them believe a lie because of my conduct or speaking.  But Joe, I have to live in this community and with these folks on a daily basis and I can find no Bible example in which Jesus commanded us to abandon our family in need regardless of their error or blatant sin.

Friend Joe, what would you have me do?

Inquiring minds and hearts want to know.

I love you and I appreciate the good intention of your response. 

Please keep up the good work.  Bob Breyfogle


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javajoe

  • Guest
Re: Jesus Church?
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2007, 11:32:51 AM »

Beautiful post JavaJoe. the best thing about your post in my opinion is your spirit. Thats what I listen for when I read post on this forum. I sense your heart for God and your willingness to expose yourself to these people on this forum to check your spirit. I don't think anybody on here can rightfully have a problem with this. I think we should all throw ourselves in or on this fire so that God can Burn off anything that is not of or like him. Thank you Brother.

Hi Sonofone,

Thank you for your kind words.  People on this forum are going to find out that I like speaking my mind, carnal though it may be.  But, I am learning a lot - though I feel like a beginner, so forgive  me as I struggle along.  :)
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javajoe

  • Guest
Re: Jesus Church?
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2007, 11:48:19 AM »

Thanks Bob and Joe for your responses!

You definitely gave me something to think about.  God gives us the  heart and faith to do what He calls us to do anyway, so I don't need to worry about what others may or may not do, or what they may even think.  It's all part of growing.

In Christ,

JavaJoe
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Jesus Church?
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2007, 12:48:08 PM »

 

The inspiration came from a book one of the members loaned me called; The Kingdom of God is a PARTY, by Tony Campolo.  As you may imagine, I am not going to teach with authority concerning doctrine.  The folks would listen and even participate in the discussion, but the doctrines wouldn't remain with them because they would just filter them out automatically through the traditions they have always known.  It is my hope however that they will come away with less fear of the future in their minds.


Hi Bob,

I did a quick search on the book you mentioned, I could not get past the first paragraph where Tony Campolo states;


"The Kingdom is a Party"

In Chapter 14 of Deuteronomy, beginning at the 22nd verse, we read about tithing. According to Jewish law, every year all Jewish families came to Jerusalem. They brought with them one-tenth of all the money they earned that past year. (Tony's version)

Now for the actual Scripture;

Deu 14:22  Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
 
Deu 14:23  And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.

Does anyone see money mentioned, I am sorry but I can not see this mixing of truth with lies as a good thing, if someone wants to belong to a social club maybe it would be better to join one that does not misrepresent God's Word or His plan and purpose.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

P.S. That was just the first 2 sentences of the very first paragraph!


= = = =
12:30  9/14/07

Dear Friend Joe,

I repent of not being more clear and detailed in my short letter to encourage JavaJoe and Gregor to be patient while separating themselves from error and yet maintaining good relations with the community in which they live.  I know that you agree with what I had in mind, but didn't explain clearly, because I have read your thoughtful, gracious advice to others on a similar topic that doesn't come readily to mind.

I will begin my humble defense with the statement that I am in no way recommending the mentioned book or its author. My reason for mentioning it is that the member who lent me the book will hopefully be considering an additional aspect of God's love that the author didn't mention and they will be pleased to know that I did read the book out of love and respect for their thoughtfulness. 

Keep in mind please, that this is a house church bible study that is maintained with about ten retired persons who have no where else to go and I am just visiting the infirm, the lonely, the uncalled to try to bring a little cheer and to exercise my own compassion for others.  They do not believe in the trinity, they don't teach tithing as compulsory only as from the heart and they are all above 65 years of age. In fact Ferris Zechiel will be 100 next birthday.

Next please allow me to mention that verses 25 -26 do instruct the traveling celebrant to turn the produce into money and to share it graciously with all who are in need and in attendance at the 'party'.  It is not intended as an offering to God or the temple, it is to be spent lavishly on oneself, ones friends and the needy.   This celebration is a fore taste of the joy we will find in the Kingdom and was an inspiration to the Jews of Jesus time.

Lastly, I agree completely and wholeheartedly that we should not mix truth with lies.  I am working on becoming more Christlike as are all of us in BT and the forum, but I am just learning how to handle this responsibility and I can see no responsible and loving way to just walk away from people who have shown me only love and respect.

I can reassure you that I will not lie to them or as much as it is in my control, let them believe a lie because of my conduct or speaking.  But Joe, I have to live in this community and with these folks on a daily basis and I can find no Bible example in which Jesus commanded us to abandon our family in need regardless of their error or blatant sin.

Friend Joe, what would you have me do?

Inquiring minds and hearts want to know.

I love you and I appreciate the good intention of your response. 

Please keep up the good work.  Bob Breyfogle



Dear Bob,

Thank you for the kind and thoughtful response, please do not think my intent was to denigrate or condemn your noble desire to share good news with these folks who need and will appreciate your fellowship. My post was meant to throw caution signs to other members and guests that much of what Mr. Campolo teaches is not Scripturally sound doctrine.

The quote I addressed was indeed part truth but a bigger untruth was slipped in as Israel did not bring one tenth of the money they made the past year. You are right some currency was accumulated through the selling of commodities that they were to tithe, I am sure you can see the difference.

I think that making the point about what was to be tithed and how some of these things were sold to raise money would not take away from the joyful message you are hoping to bring, in fact if some of them were to believe they were required to give away 10% of their wealth (or Social Security or pension checks) to Mr. Campolo or another preacher or church it could in fact have quite the opposite effect. "Oh my, I have not given my 10% where shall that put me? Will I be invited to the party or invited to fire and brimstone for eternity?"

What I have found to be the most incredible thing about church teachings is how they miss the progression that is to be the life of a believer:

1. Blissful ignorance
2. The love and joy of the beginning of knowledge in and of the Lord
3. Falling away, complacency
4. Coming back to our first love
5. Trials, tribulations, suffering (but having joy for being counted worthy, being chosen, for His sake)
6. Enduring to the end, finishing the race
7. Resurrection to the true life as a Son or Daughter of God (that is when the real party begins!)

Instead they teach that the worldly things that our carnal nature desires are actually to be prayed for rather than to die to, seeking the prosperity of this world will keep us tethered to our carnal beast instead of slaying and cutting the ties to the beast and his world.

Bob, I think you can use the outline of the message of this book while still not compromising the truth, it will be a party, it will be better than any of us can imagine, all will be saved never again to be separated! But not in this earthly life but in the next spiritual life.

Lastly, I totally agree that providing comfort and peace to all men and women in need regardless of what their beliefs are is the Christ like thing to do, I will be praying for you and your Brothers and Sisters at this home church and the presentation you will be giving.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
 

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indianabob

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Re: Jesus Church?
« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2007, 01:08:57 PM »

Friend Joe,

Well said and thank you.

Regards, Bob
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Gregor

  • Guest
Re: Jesus Church?
« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2007, 03:25:17 PM »

Joe,
You said:
"Instead they teach that the worldly things that our carnal nature desires are actually to be prayed for rather than to die to, seeking the prosperity of this world will keep us tethered to our carnal beast instead of slaying and cutting the ties to the beast and his world."

Perhaps you've touched on why Jesus, after his ressurection, (John 20:17) told Mary not to cling to him??
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