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Author Topic: Greater Works Than These  (Read 4710 times)

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hillsbororiver

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Greater Works Than These
« on: September 14, 2007, 01:25:59 PM »

I am sure that most of us have read the following verses (and others) where Jesus tells His disciples that they will be doing "greater works than these." What could be greater than raising the dead? What on earth could they or we do that was greater than that?

Joh 5:20  For the Father loveth the Son, and showeth him all things that himself doeth: and he will show him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
 
Joh 14:12  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also;  and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Do you suppose Jesus was prophesying of the next age? When His elect will actually be involved in and bringing in the Fall Harvest? Is this a promise of the great work to be entrusted to those who endure and finish the race?

Rom 9:23  And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

2Co 1:7  And our hope of you is steadfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.

All your comments are welcome and encouraged!

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

 
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Gregor

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Re: Greater Works Than These
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2007, 01:36:26 PM »

Perhaps the "greater" applies to the fact that God is using us (indwelling spirit) to perform the works, not that the works are any greater. It is no harder for God to raise the dead, than to cure the common cold. But what is great is that he chooses to live inside us, carnal flesh, and that we can learn to hear and respond to his voice.
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Greater Works Than These
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2007, 01:58:11 PM »

Hi Gregor,

A great point in regard to the things done in this age, with the "earnest" of His Spirit within us, what about when we receive the full inheritance at the resurrection becoming true Sons and Daughters, not raising the dead to a temporal earthly life but to immortality harvesting those who must first pass through the Lake of Fire before entering the Kingdom.


Eph 1:14  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Php 3:21  Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Ray speaks of this in more than a few articles, it is incredible stuff!

His Peace to you,

Joe

 
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Gregor

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Re: Greater Works Than These
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2007, 02:32:33 PM »

A+ Joe,
The things of this world will pass away(not so great) but the things of the spirit are eternal (very great). Flesh profits nothing. Spirit gives life! It is great that we have received the spirit, adoption, by which we cry Abba, Father. ;D
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Kat

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Re: Greater Works Than These
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2007, 02:47:30 PM »


Hi Joe,

I think what you are saying makes a lot of sense.

Joh 14:12  "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in Me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.
v. 13  Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
v. 14  If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.

When the Elect are at one with Christ and the father, in the kingdom, I believe that is when, "Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son."  So when we are perfectly at one with God, then we will always know exactly what to ask, so whatever we ask He will do.  I think many great things will be accomplished with the fullness of His Spirit working in the Elect in the kingdom.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Robin

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Re: Greater Works Than These
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2007, 04:53:19 PM »

I believe God can work though any believer as he chooses, when he chooses, if he chooses to confirm his word with signs and wonders. I've seen miracles in my own life that confirmed the word of God or rather were caused by the word of God because I was able to believe the word. Nothing near the miracles that accompanied the apostles when they first began proclaiming the word of God. There are also false miracles and false signs meant to deceive. We see a lot more of that today I think. I think it's because there are so few who believe the truth and the word of God.

1 Corinthians 12:28
And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.

Galatians 3:4-6
4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
 
Mark 6:4-6
4Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor." 5He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6And he was amazed at their lack of faith.

Matthew 24:24
For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.

Mark 16
19After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.


1 Corinthians 2:3-5
3I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, 5so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.


1 Thessalonians 1:4-6
 4For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake. 6You became imitators of us and of the Lord; in spite of severe suffering, you welcomed the message with the joy given by the Holy Spirit.


Acts 19:10-12
10This went on for two years, so that all the Jews and Greeks who lived in the province of Asia heard the word of the Lord.
11God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, 12so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.

Romans 15
18I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done— 19by the power of signs and miracles, through the power of the Spirit. So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ. 20It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else's foundation.

2 Corinthians 12:11-13
 11I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the "super-apostles," even though I am nothing. 12The things that mark an apostle—signs, wonders and miracles—were done among you with great perseverance. 13How were you inferior to the other churches, except that I was never a burden to you? Forgive me this wrong!

Hebrews 2
3how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.


« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 04:55:36 PM by M.G. »
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Greater Works Than These
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2007, 05:31:28 PM »

THE WORLD IS GROANING FOR IT KNOWS NOT WHAT

"For the earnest expectation of the creation waits FOR THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD" (Rom. 8:19).

Notice this verse in a few other translations:

"For the EAGER outlook of creation ARDENTLY awaits the revealing of the Sons of God" (The Emphasized New Testament).

"For the LONGING of the creation LOOKS EAGERLY for the time when [the glory of] the sons of God shall be revealed" (The Epistles of Paul by Conybeare).

"All creation is YEARNING, LONGING to see the manifestation of the sons of God" (The New Testament in Modern Speech).

Or the creation waits with EAGER LONGING for the revealing of the sons of God" (The Revised Standard Version).

"THE WHOLE WORLD IS ON TIPTOE to see the wonderful sight of the sons of God coming into their own" (Phillips’ Translation).

To be sure, it is GOD Who is telling us that the whole creation is groaning in earnest expectation. It is groaning for it knows not what, but GOD KNOWS! In other words, God is telling US, who are growing in spiritual truths, what it is that the whole world and indeed the whole creation is in desperate need of—the saving power of the Sons of God. We ARE the BODY OF CHRIST! What Christ does, he DOES THROUGH US!

WHY? Why are they waiting for the manifestation of the Sons of God? Of what value will these Sons be to them? We can see why the Sons themselves would want to be manifested as such with God their Father and Elder Brother Jesus Christ, but why would all the wicked humanity of the entire "CREATION" be "waiting in EARNEST expectation?" What in the world is taking place here?

The church teaches that after all the Sons and Daughters of God are in their glory, the rest of the world will be tortured eternally by real fire in a terrorist hellhole of hopeless doom (never mind the fact that God says "there will be NO MORE DOOM") (Rev. 22:3, Concordant Literal New Testament).

Seriously, when all the Sons and Daughters of God are manifested IN THEIR GLORY, why would the ENTIRE CREATION be awaiting this event with almost uncontrollable bated breath, excitement, and anticipation? WHY? What is it that the churches have never told you? What is God going to do with all these glorified Sons and Daughters?

You have heard enough lies, now let’s read God’s Truth. Here is one of the most profound and all-encompassing Scriptures in the entirety of the Bible:

"For the earnest expectation of the creature [creation] waits for THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD. For the creature [creation] was MADE subject to VANITY [‘…surely, EVERY MAN IS VANITY’-- Psalm 39:11], NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [GOD] Who has subjected the same in HOPE. Because the creature [creation] itself also shall be DELIVERED from the bondage of corruption [corruption includes DEATH] into THE GLORIOUS LIBERTY OF THE CHILDREN OF GOD. For we know that THE WHOLE CREATION GROANS AND TRAVAILS IN PAIN together until now" (Rom. 8:19-22).

WOW! Let me point out a few marvelous things in this verse. Notice the chronological order of things in this Scripture and see how it contradicts the terrible teaching of orthodox doctrine:

First the Sons of God are manifested or shown to be what they really are—SPIRITUAL SONS OF GOD (and DAUGHTERS—II Cor. 6:18)! No longer flesh and blood. No longer subject to the pulls of a carnal mind, but True Sons in the very IMAGE OF GOD and His Son, Jesus Christ.

But what happens next? What happens to all the rest of humanity who are not sons and daughters and are not saved? What will happen to them? Just why, pray tell, are they eagerly awaiting the manifestation of these Sons and Daughters? Of what value is the salvation and manifestation of the few chosen saints to those left behind who are not saved?

The Church teaches the world that the rest of humanity will be tortured for all eternity in the lake of fire. Is that true? Is that the purpose of the lake of fire is?

Next we read what the condition of the rest of humanity is, how they got that way, and what is the solution to the problem.

"For the creature [creation] was made subject to VANITY, not willingly, but by reason of Him who has subjected the same in hope" (Rom. 8:20).

God MADE man subject to vanity. God did not ask man’s permission to do this. God did it for His own wise purpose. But God is not a fiend that takes pleasure in the failures of weak humanity. God did not make man in a condition of vanity so that most of humanity would fail of the ideal, and God would then torture most of his creation eternally, when it was He Who created them weak and subjected them to every form of vanity in the first place. God created the whole creation subject to vanity. It is, therefore, God’s responsibility to get man out of this mess.

God supernaturally made a way for the "manifested Sons of God" to conquer the flesh and the carnal mind and be formed into the very image of God with the very mind of Christ! They will be no longer subject to vanity when they are manifested. They will be no longer subject to "the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION." They will be FREE!

And it is they who will then FREE the rest of humanity from their bondage! What was the purpose for this subjection to vanity? So that they will eternally fail and God would eternally torture them for their failure? No! Let’s read it:

God has, "subjected the same IN HOPE" (Verse 20). Wait a minute, am I saying that all of humanity, who fail to be in the first resurrection and become the manifest Sons and Daughters of God, will nonetheless still have "hope?" Is there really hope for all the lost and unsaved? How can this be? Aren’t they going to be subjected to the "lake of fire?" Yes, but there is "hope" in the lake of fire. In fact, the lake of fire is their ONLY HOPE! They will not be eternally tortured just because they did not attain to the first resurrection, but will rather be "DELIVERED!" Let’s read it:

HOPE AND BLESSED ASSURANCE IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT

"And as it is appointed unto men ONCE TO DIE, but after this THE JUDGMENT" (Heb. 9:27).

So all creation spoken of in Rom. 8 will ultimately die. And "after" death comes "judgment." Who is in charge of this judgment and when will it take place?

"Because He [God] has appointed A DAY, in which He will judge the world [how?] IN RIGHTEOUSNESS [eternal torture is NOT righteousness] by THAT MAN Whom He has ordained [‘For the Father judges no man, but has committed ALL judgment unto the Son,’ John 5:22]; whereof He has given ASSURANCE unto ALL MEN [Gee, could this ‘assurance to ALL men … in the WORLD" be the same as the ‘hope for all creatures in ALL CREATION’ that we just read about in Rom. 8:20? And just how can there be hope and assurance for all these lost, unrepentant, unbelievers of the world? Read on…], in that He has raised Him [Jesus] from the dead" (Acts 17:31).

Notice the reason given that THE WHOLE WORLD, or the WHOLE INHABITED EARTH as some translations have it, is given "assurance." It is because Jesus Christ ROSE FROM THE DEAD! Paul plainly tells us that if Christ has not been raised from the dead, then even WE are still in our sins:

"And if Christ be NOT raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep [died] in Christ ARE PERISHED" (I Cor. 15:17-18).

And so it is because of Christ’s resurrection that we have HOPE and ASSURANCE for a future life with GOD! And now you also have Scriptural proof that the ENTIRE CREATION which was SUBJECTED TO VANITY and CORRUPTION, NOT WILLINGLY, has "HOPE" in the same risen Christ. And the whole inhabited earth, in that day of judgment, ALSO has full ASSURANCE because Jesus Christ was raised from the dead! Do you even begin to comprehend what you are now reading in God’s Word? God’s day of judgment is a time of "hope" and "assurance."

We read that all judgment has been given unto the Son, Jesus Christ. But Jesus is not the only Judge in that day. Here is where the manifested Sons and Daughters of God come into their most important role in the salvation of all mankind, all creation, and the entirety of the creation in both the heavens and the earth:

http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html
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Falconn003

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Re: Greater Works Than These
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2007, 09:17:31 PM »

Most certain the greater works is refering to the quantity of works that will be done at the manifestation of the Sons of God rather than the quality of works being done.

Where 1 Jesus the Son of God does a number of miracles .......rasing the dead,  healing, cleansing, the blind to see, forgiveness...ect.  The 1444,000 elect Jesus like Sons of God will do a many miracles, too countless and high in numerical value to keep a log of.

Rodger





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Falconn003

  • Guest
Re: Greater Works Than These
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2007, 10:55:02 AM »

hey Joe

You ask

What could be greater than raising the dead? What on earth could they or we do that was greater than that?

Answer : Not let anyone DIE.    ;)  ;D

Rodger

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Sue Creamer

  • Guest
Re: Greater Works Than These
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2007, 11:00:35 AM »

Rodger,

Ha ha ha...that got a chuckle out of me on a Monday morning!!!


Sue Ann

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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Greater Works Than These
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2007, 11:00:35 AM »

LOL!  ;D

That is the truth Rodger, and the plan of God will not fail, He will not lose even one when all is said and done.

His Peace to you,

Joe
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Falconn003

  • Guest
Re: Greater Works Than These
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2007, 11:02:41 AM »

Joe And Sue Ann

AMen and a good day to you and your love ones....good morning by the way :)

Rodger
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: Greater Works Than These
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2007, 11:37:20 AM »

What could be greater than raising the dead? What on earth could they or we do that was greater than that?

Hi Joe, great question. I know Rodger has already answered with removing death and don't get me wrong, it's an awesome accomplishment. But the one thing that I feel is far greater than raising the dead is the fact that God will remove all signs of mans carnal nature; the enmity that man has for God and just about everyone else. Just think, no hatred, bigotry, jealousy, back-stabbing, etc. Nothing but Love, joy, peace, happiness, contentment for everything and everyone but mostly for God.

That God will be all in all.

Well that's my take on it :)

Love in Christ,
Darren
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Greater Works Than These
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2007, 12:08:08 PM »

I agree Darren,

The removal of our sinful nature will result in a life so wonderful that neither Isaiah or Paul could even imagine it or put it into words!


Isa 64:4  For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.
 
1Co 2:9  But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Sin and death are tied together tightly, that is exactly what Christ eventually saves all from, and the elect get to participate in this greatest event in the history of the world.

Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1Jo 2:2  And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Ray writes;

The church teaches that after all the Sons and Daughters of God are in their glory, the rest of the world will be tortured eternally by real fire in a terrorist hellhole of hopeless doom (never mind the fact that God says "there will be NO MORE DOOM") (Rev. 22:3, Concordant Literal New Testament).

Seriously, when all the Sons and Daughters of God are manifested IN THEIR GLORY, why would the ENTIRE CREATION be awaiting this event with almost uncontrollable bated breath, excitement, and anticipation? WHY? What is it that the churches have never told you? What is God going to do with all these glorified Sons and Daughters?

You have heard enough lies, now let’s read God’s Truth. Here is one of the most profound and all-encompassing Scriptures in the entirety of the Bible:

"For the earnest expectation of the creature [creation] waits for THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD. For the creature [creation] was MADE subject to VANITY [‘…surely, EVERY MAN IS VANITY’-- Psalm 39:11], NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [GOD] Who has subjected the same in HOPE. Because the creature [creation] itself also shall be DELIVERED from the bondage of corruption [corruption includes DEATH] into THE GLORIOUS LIBERTY OF THE CHILDREN OF GOD. For we know that THE WHOLE CREATION GROANS AND TRAVAILS IN PAIN together until now" (Rom. 8:19-22).

It is an awesome yet humbling thing to contemplate.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Greater Works Than These
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2007, 01:25:51 PM »

I was just now rereading the "Free Will" series and came across this portion which I believe is a good fit here;

So Rodger & Darren you are both right!



FREE INDEED

In the last installment we read John 6:36:

"If the Son therefore shall MAKE you free, ye shall be free indeed."

I said that this verse has nothing to do with free will. But it certainly does have to do with freedom. But freedom from what? From what is it that Jesus frees us? Why free from what we were in bondage to before He freed us, of course.

"Because the creature itself also shall be delivered [freed] from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God" (Rom. 8:21).

The whole creation will be delivered from this bondage one day. But until then, only those destined to become the manifest sons of God receive this deliverance.

Here is the same thought in slightly different words:

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free [here is this ‘cause and effect’ thing again] from the law of sin and death" (Rom. 8:2).

No one can "freely" change his will from hating and disobeying God on one day to loving and obeying God on the next. No, it takes a supernatural miracle from God to accomplish this. God must Personally remove and free [here is the cause] us from being under the "Law of sin and death" to being under the "Law of the Spirit of life in Christ."

Does man accomplish this by his own will? Not unless you want to make a liar out of Jesus. Jesus says that He "frees us," so how can we say that we freely free ourselves?

Read it all here;

Installment XV - Part B

The Myth of Free-Will Exposed

ONLY THE SPIRIT CAN CAUSE THE CARNAL MIND TO REPENT

http://bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html

His Peace to you,

Joe
« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 01:27:26 PM by hillsbororiver »
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Falconn003

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Re: Greater Works Than These
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2007, 03:53:54 PM »

Joe

Not a matter of being rite , matter of Turth of God's Spirit in us all.

 ;) ;D

God bless
Rodger
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Beloved

  • Guest
Re: Greater Works Than These
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2007, 04:30:02 PM »

(Joh 14:12 CLV)  Verily, verily, I am saying to you, he who is believing in Me, the works which I am doing he also will be doing, and greater than these will he be doing, for I am going to the Father."

(Joh 14:13 CLV)  And whatever you should be requesting in My name, this I will be doing, that the Father should be glorified in the Son
."

How sad the the present day church can only see the carnal aspects of these verses and want their physical healings and wealth etc.

What an honor the "few" elect will have ....to be able to glorify God by assisting in the salvation of the "many".  It is so fantastic that it almost incomprehensible.

God came in the flesh as Jesus, He died and was resurrected spiritually and now lives through the flesh of the few and in time will resurrect All and then bring All into the spiritual.

God has not yet given them eyes to see past their nose. Mankind is locked into its physical realm. It is awesome to think what will be needed to take them the rest of the way.

We only know that God will be righteous and do everything perfectly.

beloved
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Greater Works Than These
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2007, 07:14:44 PM »

Joe

Not a matter of being rite , matter of Turth of God's Spirit in us all.

 ;) ;D

God bless
Rodger

Right again!  :D (Sorry Rodger, I could not resist)

Your observation is true Brother.

Beloved,

It is incomprehensible, the great work that lies ahead accomplishing all this while being in unison with Christ not only as a far reaching goal but to actually be like Him in perfection, no more doubts, no more conjecture, no more failing. To be a part of that glorious harvest.

As to the churches it is difficult, no it is impossible to understand that what we see, hear, smell, touch and taste is not to be sought after, they pray for the very things we are commanded to put away from the core of our hearts. Yes we need physical things to journey through this world but these things and this world are not the things we should be focused on and concerned about.


Mat 6:33  But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Mat 16:25  For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

As they sell the worldly manner of prosperity to their sheep they are teaching total and complete heresy, people buy into this philosophy with their tithes and offerings in the hope of worldly as well as heavenly gain, but for most (not all), this hope for gain or increase is centered on this world with the other part being a sort of insurance policy against an eternity in hell.

1Jn 2:15  Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

 
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Greater Works Than These
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2007, 12:30:53 PM »

Hi again Rodger,

This came to mind after reading your post;


Heb 2:15  And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

His Peace to you,

Joe

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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Greater Works Than These
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2007, 05:12:24 PM »

Hello Rodger


A buffet of food for thought....

A symphony of heavenly delights is showing through this thread!

What an evocative and beautiful insight to ponder that Christ is not only where two or more gather in His Name but is the Tree of LIFE in the midst of HIS LIVING CHURCH.  HE is ever present all seeing and all knowing and SO CLOSE.

It is wonderful and very constructive when exchange in insights produces visibility of the nearness and dearness of Jesus Christ. A gift....a tantalising gift of hope that feeds our joy and anticipation of His return.

Beloved I enjoyed what you communicated quote : What an honor the "few" elect will have

~This triggered the awareness of these words in the Scriptures : "Cor 2 : 10 Yet to us God has unveiled and revealed them by and through His Spirit, for the Spirit searches diligently, exploring and examining everything, even sounding the profound and bottomless things of God, the divine counsels and things hidden and beyond man's scrutiny.....13 And we are setting these truths forth in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, combining and interpreting spiritual truths with spiritual language to those who posses the Holy Spirit.

... symphony of heavenly delights of Truth at the buffet!

Peace

Arcturus :)

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