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Robin:
I saw this verse today and it is another verse that takes free will out of the picture.


Acts 13:47-49 NIV

47For this is what the Lord has commanded us:
   " 'I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
      that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.' "

 48When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

 49The word of the Lord spread through the whole region.


Acts 13:47-49 King James
47For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

 48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

 49And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.


ap·point·ed      –adjective
1. by, through, or as a result of an appointment (often in contrast with elected): an appointed official. 
2. predetermined; arranged; set: They met at the appointed time in the appointed place. 
3. provided with what is necessary; equipped; furnished: a beautifully appointed office.

or·dain
1.
   a.To invest with ministerial or priestly authority; confer holy orders on.
   b.To authorize as a rabbi.
2.To order by virtue of superior authority; decree or enact.
3.To prearrange unalterably; predestine: by fate ordained.

indianabob:
Good topic M.G.

I'm going to stick my neck out a little here and just ask.

It seems entirely reasonable that God would operate His Kingdom in this way, but
folks who are just learning or haven't studied God's plan carefully of even a little
may see this as unfair; IF we don't add that others WILL BE ordained in God's plan
and will enjoy the benefits and challenges that the presently ordained have.

I think that most folks have the mind set that it is NOW of NEVER in relation to God's calling.

Please comment, Thanks, indianabob

sonofone:
I am going to try to give my spin on this and let the chips fall where they may. What is Freewill ? I know that we admit here that man has a will, and that he is able to make choices. Where I think I have a hard time accepting if I understand what Ray teaches correctly, is that man is not able to choose without cause.Which I believe is another way of saying, man can only choose what the creator chooses him to choose. I submitt to a slightly different definition of free will. Simply stated the freedom that God gives people or in a stricter definition,Adam, to make decisions, to reject God's will. If this whole life that we live was simply about God's choosing or his will,without man having the ability to choose against his will what need is there for us to be here? What need is there for Jesus,? What need is there for the plan of salvation? What cause would there be for God to be angry, jealous,? What cause or need would there be for God's wrath, or judgement? As I said in another post I think we confuse or get confused with understanding eternity as it relates to time.When God said let us make man in our image,in eternity it was done; however in the element of time it had to be walked out and worked out. Part of that working out was Adam choosing to disobey God.We have to all be in agreement that Adam disobeyed God. The tree of life, (Jesus) was in the middle of the garden, just as the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,(carnal nature).We know that Adam chose the latter.Can we also agree that Adam was made or created in innocence unlike us? This is to say that prior to this choosing, the carnal nature of man which we are born in, had not yet been activated. Gen 3 vs 4-7. After they ate there eyes were opened. A change in their nature occurred, after their choosing.Which leads me back to my understanding of the definition of free will.The freedom that God gave Adam to make a choice to reject his will or to disobey his command. Notice what God says of man and what he does in regards of this in Gen 3 vs 22-24. Can you see that if God had not cut him off from the garden that he could have made a choice that would have been in opposition to the will of God. This is the first time but certainly not the last that God interrupts or overides the will of man. Notice the type and shadow in verse 24. The cherubim with the swords that guarded the tree of life. There remained no way that sinful flesh could access the tree of life,except by passing through the sword. Even now this is true. You cannot access God in your sinful nature without passing through the word or the sword. Hebrews 4 vs 12-13. The sword cuts through or off our carnal or sinful nature as we press through to access the tree of life.Free will existed for Adam, he could have chosen to eat from the tree of life, which was right there in the middle of the garden. God did not make Adam choose as he did. Adam chose. That's why judgement followed.What judge would sentence a man to death or punishment knowing he was not guilty of committing the crime? How could God being Just behave unjustly?He subjects us to death and judgements and punishments and sufferings because we did only as he willed us to do? God forbid we were and are guilty.Notice I make no assertion that Adam was created perfectly the n malfunctioned as Rays arguments points out. If he were already perfect he would have been unable to choose as he did. However I do contend that he was responsible for his choice, because as clearly stated the tree of life was there for the choosing.  The fact that God appoints, chooses, elects,or, ordains,does not disallow or nullify the freewill of man.If you look at it in the natural, in the rearing of my child,I override his will.I sometimes have to snatch him from danger, make him clean his room. The fact that I impose my will over his does not mean he has no free will.

Kat:
Hi sonofone,

I think what you are saying is we have a limited free will?  I believe you think in order for it to be fair to be held guilty, then we have to make the wrong choices on our own. 
Ray does go into this many times.  Here is and email on our be accountable.

http://bible-truths.com/email4.htm#account ---------------

There are a couple of reasons why God holds one accountable (not responsible--God takes the responsibility) for his sins even if he couldn't have done otherwise.

People who sin and have no desire to please God, do not believe in the first place that they do not have a free will regarding their sins.   They believe that they ARE in control of their own destiny. See the example of that I use of the Assyrian king in the latter part of my letter to James Kennedy.  The king took credit for conquering all the nations around him. He though HE was the mighty one. He thought HE planned and did these mighty acts by HIMSELF.  God informs us that the king was merely a pawn (or an ax) in God's own hand doing the conquering.  Our pride and vanity will be conquered by God.

We actually DO commit the sins that we commit. Whether we could have done otherwise is immaterial in as much as committing the sin makes us SINNERS.  Think of sin as DIRT.  It matters not HOW we got dirty--God is going to give EVERYONE A BATH LIKE IT OR NOT. God is God and He can and will do as HE pleases. And God pleases to put us through an experience of sin and death before He glorifies us with all the powers of the universe.

Sincerely,

Ray
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This is a segment of Ray's Bible study on ‘FREE WILL’ IS AN OXYMORON.'

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5154.0.html ------------

Gen 2:15  And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
v. 16  And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat:
v. 17  But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, YOU SHALL NOT eat of it:  for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die.

Did Adam know that God said, you shouldn’t eat this?  He knew that!  Does Adam have a free will?  Ask any minister, of course he does, did Eve have a free will, absolutely they say. 

Gen 3:1  Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, You shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Gen 3:2  And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

So did she know what was right, because of what she was told?  Yes, she just acknowledged that, did she not.  Did she just acknowledge that she knew what they were suppose to do and what they were not suppose to do.  Did she have that knowledge?  YES!  Does she have a will that is totally free and can not be influenced by any outside circumstances, cause, factor, divine or otherwise?  Well theology would tell us yes she does have that.

Gen 3:3  But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (She knew that)
v. 4  And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
v. 5  For God doth know that in the day you eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
v. 6  And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food,  and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat…”

But she did that by her own free will, there was nothing that influenced her to do that?  Are you Crazy!  Are you reading a different Bible from me?  Satan tricked her.  Her will was no more free than my cat’s. 

v. 6   And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food….she took of the fruit thereof and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.”

Now they say, ‘well they were deceived.’  No.  No, because Paul told Timothy, Adam was not deceived, Eve was deceived, but Adam was not deceived. (1Tim. 2:14)  So you can’t even say, ’well he was deceived, that was the problem, he had free will, but he was deceived.’  He was not deceived, the Bible say he was not deceived.  So if he had a will, and it was free, he knew right from wrong, God told him, his wife knew it.  Now he is confronted with his wife wants him to eat and could he eat, knowing that God said “Don’t eat.”  Does he have this freedom of will, to either do it or not do it?  He DOES eat it.  And every human being that has ever lived sins, and is also partaking of the tree.  Everyone. 
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Now I want to make a distinction.  You hear about this term free will all the time.  But in religious circles you hear about free moral agency.  What they mean is, that free will is free moral agency.  It’s not only the ability to make uncaused choices, but it is also the ability to choose the right choices.  Not just to make a choice that’s not caused, but to make the right choice which is morally, ethically, spiritually right and correct, you see. 
Here’s the thing, they think you have a kind of barometer that God put inside of you that has the ability to choose the good things of God.  That will make, you know, brownie points for you, as opposed to doing bad things that will bring punishment and judgment upon you, ok.
That’s what we mean by free ’moral’ agency.  You are an agent of morality and you have the ability to choose proper and good morality without any cause whatsoever.  Of course it is total nonsense.  But I just wanted to show you what they mean by free moral agency.

Free will means more to them than just the ability to make uncaused choices. But to make the right morally correct choices.  Now if this is so, then why do we need the Spirit of God?  Why would we need the Spirit of God if we have this ability already?  You see how it short changes God, short changes the Spirit, and it short changes what He’s doing for us and teaching us.   And all that He’s doing it makes it all useless and worthless, because they think you already possess all these abilities. That’s why they call it free moral agency.

John 16:13  "Howbeit when the Spirit of truth, is come, he(it) shall guide you into all the truth..."

I changed the he to ‘it‘, because the Spirit of God is not a he, it’s an it.
Now if we need the Spirit of God to guide you into all truth and by that we also have to include the truth about what’s good and bad, right and wrong, morally proper and what’s immoral, you see.  If we have to have the Spirit of God to do it in us, to cause, see it’s got to be a cause there.  If this spirit of God comes in you, but doesn’t do anything - remember we read that free will is the ability to formulate free causes without anything interfering or working in your behalf.  Well now, if the Spirit of God comes in you and doesn’t do ANYTHING, what good is it?  What earthly or heavenly good is it? 

I mean let’s think about that, what good is it?  But then if we say the Holy Spirit inspires you to do what’s right, well wait a minute we just threw free will out the window.  If you need the Spirit of God to cause you to see the right and choose the right, you just threw free moral agency out the window.  You don't need something to do something, if you can do it without it.  You don’t need a jack, to jack up your car to change a flat tire.  If you could change a flat tire without a jack .  Did you get that? 

What is it that comes into our lives to lead us into truth and goodness?  The Spirit of God!  But if we’ve got free moral agency, which they say gives you the ability - that’s why they gave it the stupid name ‘free morality,’  because it means you are the agent of uncaused goodness and morality.  In other words, a man is basically good if he wants to be. 
Well why doesn’t it ever work?  Why is it that NO man seeks out God?  All have sinned, why if we‘ve got this thing?  Listen, if you have free will, at least it ought to be a 50-50 proposition, right.  You ought to have at least a 50% chance of doing right, as oppose to wrong, right.  At least 50-50 would have to fair, right.  No, it’s so lopsided, it’s 100-0.  You have to be taught , you have to be shown or God has to intervene in your life in some way or you will not be a good person.
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Well here is the truth in one verse.

Phi 2:12  Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

People like to quote that and say, ‘you got to do it yourself, it’s your own free will.’  No no no no no.  The reason you do it with fear and trembling is the next verse.

Phi 2:13  For(because) it is God which works in you BOTH(2 things) to will and to do of His good pleasure.

That’s God, not your free will!  God does that! 
We throw out God and we take on ourselves this little demigod called free will.  Therefore we despise the sovereignty of God.  We despise the Word of God and you are not going to grow spiritually.  You got to know who and what God is in relationship to who and what you are, are you will never grow spiritually. 

If you don’t see that you could have been Hitler, just as easy as Hitler was Hitler, you don’t understand who and what you are.  You don’t understand the scriptures, you don’t understand the plan of God, you don’t understand anything. 
God makes vessels of dishonor(Roms 9:21).  But you say, ‘Oh I though Hitler had free willed himself into being that monster.’  Circumstances, his own lust, there is no other way.  There is no other way he could have turned out. 

If God is determined that you and I will obey Him from here on out, guess what?  There’s no other alternative.  We will do it!  But the only thing is, He doesn’t tell us for sure that we are one.  Christ knows those that are His (John 10:14).  We don’t.  Philippians 2:13, God will do it, He works in you to will and to do.  But then verse 12, with fear and trembling.  Why?  We don’t know for sure we are one. 
Paul said less I become a castaway (1 Cor 9: 27).  But you say, ’how could Paul become a castaway?’  He said it could happen.  He said I don’t take it for granted, it could happen you know, unless I be a castaway, so I’m going to endure to the END. 
Isn’t that what Christ said, he who endures to the end (Matt 24:13), all the way to the end.  The runner who stumbles and falls 2 feet before the finish line, does not win the race.
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Audio is available at this links.

http://bible-truths.com/audio/freewill1.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/freewill2.mp3

mercy, peace and love
Kat

sonofone:
Did I understand Ray to say that Satan tricked Eve? I do have a problem with your analogy when it relates to Gods holding us accountable. Firstly the King of Assyria is an example of God interupting the will of man which is only evidenced after Adams choosing which I stated in my original post. You can find a myriad of examples to this point beginning with God kicking Adam out of the garden so that he could not stretch forth his hand and eat from the tree of life, The flood , the tower of babel, Pharaoh ,the working of salvation,IE election,or chosen, The blindness that he causes on Israel, etc..Secondly,your analogy if sin being,as dirt.Saying that it is of no consequence how or why we got dirty,it is only a matter that we are now dirty and require a bath.If I use this analogy,It leaves the question I asked, concerning God's judgment,and anger toward us unanswered. Why the anger? When I get my son dressed for the day I expect him to get dirty, so that when he does I do as you said God would do I wash them. No punishment needed, no anger toward him no judgment. But watch the difference when I judge he could have done better, Now I hold him accountable, I become angry, I judge, I punish, i instruct.You can not escape the fact that God holds us accountable, and judges us because a reasonable expectation exist that he could have chose differently. Without admitting this essential fact. I feel that we make God unjust.

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