> General Discussions
appointed/ordained
Gregor:
Rom 7:7-14 explains the situation in Gen. 2:16,17. Understanding this allows us to tie all of Rom 7 & 8 together. When God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good & evil, the command which was meant to bring life, produced death. By partaking in the knowledge, not only does sin appear exeedingly sinful, but we also then recognize our dependancy on God for life.
Gregor:
And what is sin? It is anything apart from faith. What is faith? It is more than just believing something, it is an understanding. Heb. 11:1 and 11:6 work together: NKJV vs.1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for (vs,6 God is a rewarder), the evidence of things not seen (vs.6 that God is, the "I Am"). It is impossible to please God without faith. Faith comes by hearing God, and through our obedience to his instruction is how we both please him and reap the rewards of his counsel. If I tell my small child, do "x" and give him specifics as to how to do it, and why to do it, and what will happen when it is done, and then the child does "y" and says "but I was just..." and acting on their own understanding, you will see how God would consider this wrong. If you don't follow the instructions, you will do it wrong. This is why God sent Jesus, to make propitiation for our sins and reconcile us to God, apart from whom there is no life, only death. Rom 7:8 "But sin, taking opportunity by the command produced in me all manner of evil desire..." is the same thing Eve experienced prior to partaking of the "fruit". It is out of our own hearts that desires come, even though the cause comes from God. This is why God takes full responsibility as our creators. The word also tells us to be angry and sin not. Anger is not a sin. Anger is the emotion which defends our boundaries and protects us from harm. Sin is deceitful, it appears "good" but truely results in death.
indianabob:
Well said Kat,
I appreciate that moderators can have difficulty in responding to a lengthy well thought out premise that MAY contain some basic error. You have dealt with this issue thus far and I have benefited. Thanks.
Based just on my first impressions of Sonophone's letter I would recall the following from my history.
I think this became an important issue for me while I still believed, in 1975, that after being called, once I had made some type of irrevocable decision, something like the unpardonable sin, that I was then condemned forever and even God couldn't correct my error or bad choice. "Sorry, I gave you your chance, too late now".
I used to believe and some folks still do I think, that I myself had to repent of my error or at least go to God and beg to be restored to His favor, otherwise God would just leave me in my unpardonable sin and eventually, in His great mercy, annihilate me. Even then I didn't believe in 'hell fire' for eternity; just permanently.
I think that the above thinking is why BT's understanding is so essential to understanding the character and mercy of God. Not only can God fix me, no matter what I do, God has planned this from the beginning. Any other belief leaves a great gulf permanently between me and God and God is not that way.
Yes I have choices, but none of my choices can ever remove me from God's mercy. So therefore I don't really have the 'free will' that would be defined by most other folks in the world's institutions.
Please feel free to add understanding and correction to the above.
Thanks, indianabob
Thanks again for your detailed explanation using Ray's comments.
hillsbororiver:
Hi Folks,
The way I understand this is everything that happens is God's plan, we were born with pride and lust in our hearts, we love to sin, we are slaves to our weaknesses and we enjoy the act of sinning, we start right from our birth to succumb to our carnal desires. What God has ordained is that once the Lord opens our eyes (He does it in a variety of ways) we begin to see the self destruction that is sin, He blesses us with the faith we need to start to despise the things we once held dear or at least justified. We want to slay the beast within.
Along this difficult road we stumble, and we stumble often, learning the futility of our own will and effort and how utterly and totally dependent we are on Him, we learn that the only real happiness and fulfilment comes with doing it His way. Even knowing this is not enough, He is forcing us to live it, yes we make choices but these choices are limited to the circumstances we find ourselves in, who orchestrates those circumstances?
If a piece of clay had a brain, a spinal chord, and nerve endings how would it feel being kneaded in the potter's hands, put on the potter's wheel, being dried in the kiln, being coated and then once again into the fire so the colors become vivid and become one with the clay, if this clay had a mind would it not think it was experiencing some painful, strange, even bizarre journey, one that might make no sense at all, until of course the finished product was finally revealed to it, then this once soft mushy piece of clay would see what a beautiful and glorious vessel it had been transformed into, never, ever wanting to return to its former state.
We are presently experiencing the act of being created, much like this lump of clay we do not particularly enjoy being kneaded, formed, dried, painted and kiln fired but how well worth it all when we see and experience the end result.
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
Lam 4:2 The precious sons of Zion, comparable to fine gold, how are they esteemed as earthen pitchers, the work of the hands of the potter!
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
P.S. Isa 28:21 For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.
dawnnnny:
Hi everyone - reading this thread made me think of the one part of Ray's writings about Eve that BLEW ME AWAY. I always thought they were created perfect and without sin. But when I read this part of the LOF series, I was shocked. To me it means that God created us, including our hearts, and therefore that is where the responsibility for His creation comes in. We are accountable, yes - but He takes responsibility, which is why the whole universal reconciliation fits in perfectly - because God is perfect. Anyway, I thought I'd copy this part below for anyone who hasn't read it yet. Its never fails to amaze me how little I know, or that how much of what I thought I knew was .... wrong ;) ;)
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE NOT SPIRITUAL
It is believed by most that the Ten Commandments, if followed by everyone, would eliminate all of the problems of the world. Did you know that it is possible to keep ALL of the ten commandments without having the spirit of God or without being spiritually converted? 'Tis true. Here are the commandments:
1. You shall have none other gods before Me,
2. You shall not make you any graven image…,"
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain…,"
4. Keep the Sabbath day to sanctify it…,"
5. Honor your father and your mother…,"
6. You shall not kill [murder],
7. Neither shall you commit adultery,
8. Neither shall you steal
9. Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbor,
10. Neither shall you covet…
Yes, even unaided by the Holy Spirit of God it is possible to keep these commandments of God. And the proof of this is simple: The penalty for breaking any of these commandments was death, and yet, most in Israel were not stoned to death for breaking these commandments. All of these commandments are referred to as "carnal commandments" in the New Testament (Heb. 7:16). They do not require a converted spiritual heart to keep and obey.
There was ONE commandment, however, that was of a spiritual nature. It had to do with the desires and inclination of the heart. It was the 10th commandment:
"Neither shall you desire [covet] your neighbor’s wife… house… field… manservant… maidservant… ox… a@@… or any thing that is your neighbor’s" (Deut. 5:7-21).
However, was anyone ever stoned in ancient Israel for coveting any thing that belonged to his neighbor? No. Never. One could "covet" anything he wanted all day long, just so long as he didn’t break any of the other nine commandments!
One could "covet" his neighbor’s wife, just as long as he didn’t commit adultery with her—for that he would be stoned to death.
One could "covet" his neighbor’s ox, just so long as he didn’t steal it—for that he would be stoned to death.
Oh "coveting" was a sin all right, but since it cannot be detected by man unless it eventuates into stealing or the like, no penalty was enforced on such an one. However, to Paul, it was this commandment that proved to him that his heart was not right with God even though he performed all the visible and outward duties of the law:
"…for I had not known [Gk: ‘would not have known’] lust, except the law had said, "Thou shalt not covet" (Rom. 7:7).
So lusting and coveting that which is not legal, is a sin, but it carried no penalty in Ancient Israel. But before a man ever steals, or ever commits adultery with another man’s wife, he first covets, and that is a sin and the precursor to additional sins. But is it man's will that does the coveting? Can man's will, will NOT to covet? Is man's "will" the problem? No, no, it is NOT.
SIN BEGINS IN THE HEART
Man’s mind is not the birthplace of sin. And certainly man’s will is not the originator of sin. God did NOT say: "O that there were such a WILL in them..." (Deut. 5:29). If we will just believe, our Lord tells us plainly where sin originates:
"And Jesus said, Are ye [all of you] also yet without understanding?
Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever enters in at the mouth goes into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth FROM THE HEART; and they defile the man.
For out of THE HEART proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashed hands defiles not a man" (Matt. 15:16-20).
Need I remind any that all of the above thoughts and deeds are sin?
So what pray tell does all this stuff have to do with Mother Eve’s sin in the garden? A lot—everything. The Apostle John classifies all sins into just three categories under one heading.
LOVE NOT THE WORLD—THREE CATEGORIES OF SIN
"Love NOT the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father IS NOT IN HIM. For [for means ‘because’] ALL that is in the world,
1. the lust of the FLESH,
2. the lust of the EYES,
3. and the pride of LIFE,
is not of the Father, but is of the world.
And the world passes away, and the lust thereof: but he that does the will of God abides for ever" (I John 2:15-17).
Notice that "…ALL that is in the world…"—all the sins of the world, have their origin in one of these three categories of sin that proceeds "out of THE HEART." Not out of the "will" or out of the "mind," but "out of THE HEART." The "will" and the "mind" are subject to the "heart," and not the other way around. The heart is not subject to the will, neither is the heart subject to the mind, but rather both of these are subject to the birthplace of all human functions—the HEART!
Simply and unarguably, Jesus states as a fact, that all evil thoughts and sins proceed OUT OF THE HEART.
Now, with all that said, let’s prove once and for all that Mother Eve and Adam were (1) NOT spiritually perfect in any way shape or form, BEFORE they actually ate of the forbidden fruit, and (2) neither did they sin and then partake of the forbidden fruit through the operation of something called "free will."
"And when the woman saw that the tree was GOOD FOR FOOD… Gen. 3:6:
1. "…lust of the FLESH…" (I John 2:15)
and that it was PLEASANT TO THE EYES… Gen. 3:6:
2. "…lust of the EYES…" (I John 2:15)
and a tree to be DESIRED TO MAKE ONE WISE Gen. 3:6:
3. "…the PRIDE OF LIFE" (I John 2;15)
Eve committed EVERY CATEGORY OF SIN THERE IS IN THE WORLD, before… BEFORE she actually ate of the forbidden fruit.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version