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Author Topic: What If?  (Read 6022 times)

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  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
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What If?
« on: April 24, 2006, 09:35:35 AM »

Dear L. Ray,

I have read many of your articles of which I am not unfamiliar with but am thankful to be reminded.  I wanted to bring some things to your attention in one of your email responses.  But before I do this I want to just express from the outset that my intent in no way is to be attacking, I have been on my own for 7 years since the Lord called me, often wondering why He was not leading me into a church.  Many of the truths that you have shared on your website, though I did not learn them from your site directly, were what kept me away, believing that we live in the time when the Lord is saying “Come out of her my people.â€?  But isolation has often times caused me to doubt whether I was hearing the Lord right in this.  

Today I was reading Jesus words in Matthew 5:3 where he says “Blessed are the poor in spirit…�

I decided to look up the different bible dictionaries on my e-sword for the word translated ‘poor’ and it said “a beggarâ€?.  I got excited as I thought ‘Ooh, this is me, I am a beggar in spirit (of the Lord, not man.’

I share this with you, not at all to boast but to express with what spirit I write this email to you, one of lowliness of heart and mind.  I lean not on my own understanding but look to Jesus to give me that much needed understanding.

With this being said I will get to your email response to another reader.  It is called “Todayâ€? you will be with Me in Paradise ?  I agree with all of the points that you made from numbers 2-7.  But everything in me was saying that your presentation in number 1 could still be scripturally incorrect.  The thought of writing to you was very scary for me due to your referring to it as heretical doctrine of men.  But then I felt I couldn’t just ignore it because if what comes to my mind, is true (scripturally) and of the Lord, I am sure that not only would you want to know but also the Lord would want you to know.

There were many verses that came to me as I was reading that left me concluding that it is still not out of the realm of possibility that Jesus did mean “Today you will be with Me in Paradise� without robbing your points from 2-7 of their validity.

These are the verses that came to my mind:

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven .  John 3:13

I and my Father are one.  John 10:30

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God .  Joh 3:5

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.  Joh 3:6

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day , and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,  Rev 1:10

Number 2. of your writing seems to assume that ‘Christ’ which is ‘spirit’ and born of the ‘spirit’ went with his dead body to the tomb, rather than up to the Father when he commited his ‘spirit’ into his hands.  I don’t think ‘Christ’ (spirit) went to the tomb but the ‘Son of Man’ (his body and soul) did.  If it is true that Christ was one with his body and soul than yes your presentation adds up but this is not resonating with me at all as being the case.  The spirit of ‘Christ’ entered his body (Son of Man), thus resurrecting his body and soul.  Was it not his body and soul that were to be presented to the Father in heaven and not His Spirit (No.3).&n bsp; And lastly the 40 days with his disciples, you seem to be limiting his spirit to his physical body, and thus making him absent from heaven, but in John 3:13, before Jesus died on the cross he says to his disciples that he is in heaven while in a fleshly body.  Paul also in many places comments on how he is present with various believers in spirit though absent from them in body.  

There are many more verses that keep flooding to my mind that suggest that it was Jesus soul that died along with his body (and was risen) and not his Spirit (which is Christ).  One such example is Psalms 16:10 which says

For thou wilt not leave my soul (& body) in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One (Spirit which is Christ) to see corruption.  Psa 16:10

 But for now I want to humbly propose to you, “Is it out of the realm of possibility that our Lord as he was on the cross, granted this repentant thief access to Himself through His Spirit.â€?  I know you might feel that this is asking a lot but remember that once Jesus died the veil of his flesh was rent and access to the Holy of Holies was now open.  As I understand Jesus death happened sooner than was common amongst crucified victims thus nessitating they spear his side.  I am not at all proposing an immortal soul, but a new life no longer in the soul but in the Spirit which truly is Christ.  Also I am not proposing that there are souls or spirits living independently of Christ, roaming the earth at their pleasure, but their life as is ours are hid with Christ in the Spirit.  And at the ressurection of the elect His Spirit (and their spirit Rom 8:16) will enter their dead bodies.

Well, I don’t know whether you will receive this as food for thought or whether you will conclude that I am another baffling heretic.  I certainly hope that the former is true but I am open to more discussion if needs be.  But can I ask you to please be gentle with me as I am not very thick skinned.  I desire the truth as I am sure by your writings that you do to.  May the Lord bless us both in our search for him.

Yours sincerely


Dear Suz:

You are confused because you are not accepting the teachings of ALL of the Scriptures. Christ's spirit did not go with Him to the tomb, and NEITHER did His soul (as you suggest I teach?)

Christ's spirit returned to God, but JESUS DIED and JESUS was placed in a tomb, and JESUS WAS DEAD.

Scripture teaches that His "soul" went to "the unseen" (Gk: 'hades'). Hades is not the "tomb" anymore than sheol in the Old Testament was a "tomb." Read my series on "HELL."

The thief was not converted, nor born aggain, nor regenerated; he merely believed that Jesus was the Christ. Jesus didn't promise him a part in His kingdom, yet that is what the thief requested. Jesus did not grant him his request. We must always read ALL THE WORDS IN A SCRIPTURE.

I will write on this one day and explain it, but it will take ten pages.

God be with you,



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What If?
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2006, 09:40:29 AM »

Dear Ray

What started out as an email for you turned into an exciting Bible study for me.  I truly didn’t know all these things until I was shown.  And to think I was almost tempted to pass this opportunity by to be taught of the Lord as I wrote to you.  It truly is more blessed to give than to receive, for in giving you do receive.

I thought you might like to see where this study has taken me so far, unless that is that you have concluded against my hope that I am a heretic.  Whatever the case may be, may our Lord’s will be done.

This is what I have written so far.

After writing this email to Ray, I was left feeling that the Lord was accomplishing a 3 fold purpose in it.  Firstly He opened my understanding to many scriptures that divided soul and spirit in a way I had never known until writing the email to Ray.  Secondly, he desired to open Rays understanding to these truths as well, thus having mercy on us and showing us both a more excellent way.  Praise you Lord for you lovingkindness toward us your children.

My purpose for continuing to write is that I felt the door was still open to understanding many other scriptures in light of this revelation and I wanted to note down before the light in me was turned off again.

The first verse that comes to mind is 1 Corinthians 15:45 which says:

 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit .  1Co 15:45

Wow, were not both Adams (First and Last, living Soul and quickening Spirit) in Christ Jesus.  Lets now look to the time after Christ’s ressurrection where we see that He had an appointment in Heaven as shown in His words, “I have not yet ascended to the Fatherâ€?.  Let us ask the question “Who was it that had not ascended to the Father?  Was it Christ (The Last Adam, a quickening spirit)?  No!  For He ascended to the Father when he commited His Spirit (which is Christ, the Last Adam, Son of God) into the Father’s hands.  It was Jesus body (The First Adam, living soul, Son of Man) whom had not yet ascended to the Father just as it is written in Psalms 16:10:

For thou wilt not leave my soul (First Adam, living Soul, Son of Man) in hell (the grave); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One (Last Adam, quickening Spirit which is Christ, Son of God) to see corruption(the pit).  Psa 16:10

Another verse that comes to to mind is 1 Corinthians 15:22 which says:

For as in Adam (First Adam, living Soul, Son of Man) all die (I am crucified with Christ), even so in Christ (Last Adam, a quickening Spirit, Son of God) shall all be made alive.  1Co 15:22

What has just now come to mind again is that theif whom was crucified with Christ .  He was also made alive IN Christ(Last Adam, a quickening Spirit, Son of God).  The theif’s soul (as did Jesus’s for 3 days) went to the grave, and will be ressurrected at the last trump.

What this all seems to be leading to is that we can be made alive (have our consciousness) IN the Spirit, just like John (Rev 1:10) and many others in the scriptures.  Lets just look at this following verse which says:

He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.  Mat 10:39

I looked up this verse in the Strong’s and it appears that it should read something like this:
He that finds his soul (First Adam, living Soul, Son of Man life) shall perish (in the grave): and he that destroys his soul (First Adam, living Soul, Son of Man life) on account of Me 1752, 1700 (Last Adam, a quickening spirit which is Christ, Son of God) shall find it.  Mat 10:39

 It seems to be that this theif is a picture given to us of those whose soul (First Adam, living Soul, Son of Man life) is crucified as his was, and Jesus says to such ones “Today you shall be with me (Last Adam, a quickening Spirit, Son of God) in paradise.â€?

I would go so far as to say that this seems to be the first death (to soul) and the second death which will not affect us is the grave because our life at this point will not be in the First Adam’s living Soul but in the Last Adam’s quickening Spirit.  This would suggest that the first death has to be accomplished now and our life hid with Christ in God as it is written:

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.  Col 3:3

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord .  Rom 6:11

Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead , and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.  Rom 6:13

Dear Ray, I am sure that my study is not over (Praise the Lord) and as I continue to understand more I will certainly share it with you, that is unless you would prefer me not to.  And this is not at all to suggest that you (by His guidance) could not know it apart from me.  The question is are you willing?  Only the Lord knows your heart, so I will continue by faith to share, taking you at your word that you stand for “Exposing those who Contradictâ€? the Lord and His Truth.

May he bless you with eyes to see.

Yours sincerely my brother


Dear Suz:

Not that I can't learn from others, I can, but it would take me hours to try and sort out and scripturally explain all of the contradictions and failure to make distinctions in different words which mean different things.  Jesus Christ did NOT go to His Father in Heaven on the day that He died. The spirit in Christ that kept Him alive in His body went back to His Father--JESUS DID NOT GO BACK TO HIS FATHER.  Jesus died and was burried in a tomb. The angels told the women that "JESUS" left the tomb, not just "the body of Jesus."

God be with you,


PS  I am sorry, but I cannot carry on one-on-one correspondences with individuals involving lengthy topics and multiple emails. Hope you understand.
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