> General Discussions

Unanswered questions?

<< < (2/3) > >>

sonofone:
Thanks everyone for your thoughtful responses. If anyone has any answers to my specific questions I anxiously await your response. Thanks

GODSown1:
simple az!,
              GODS WiLL!, GOD has a Plan & purpose 4 each! & every1! of us, GOD does, not uS!, GODBLESS! U & I Pray! HE brings U understanding az 2 Open ur eyes & ears Wider :)...
              muchLOVE!! Pera

skydreamers:

--- Quote from: sonofone on September 10, 2007, 09:57:54 AM ---I have a question concerning free ill after reading Rays teaching. What about the flood and the tower of babal? This seems to suggest that God had to step in and change the course of man because man was out of control.

--- End quote ---

Hi sonofone,

This is a deep question.  The most profound thing I believe I have learned in the last few years is that the bible is so much more than a document of literal historical events.  These things all happened, no doubt, but I believe they happened in direct accordance with God's will.  When you see the spiritual types it leaves no doubt in my mind.  All these things happened for "our admonition upon whom the end of the ages have come".  (1Co 10:11) 

Is it not profound that there were only 8 in the Ark, when 8 signifies new beginnings?  And it also strongly points to the theme of "many called, few chosen". 

There is so much to this story but when you begin to pay attention to all the words, as Ray teaches, and seek to find what they signify than you begin to realize that it could have played itself out in no other way.

Genesis 6:17
For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life under heaven. Everything that is on the earth shall die.

1 Corinthians 5:5
you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

It seems to me the destruction of the flesh is necessary.  Everything that is of the earth....."earthy", "fleshly", "carnal", must be destroyed...in order to make way for the new birth into the spirit:

1 Corinthians 15:47-50
47  The first man was out of earth, earthy; the second Man was the Lord from Heaven.
48  Such the earthy man, such also the earthy ones. And such the heavenly Man, such also the heavenly ones.
49  And according as we bore the image of the earthy man, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
50  And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

Genesis 7:6
Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters came upon the earth.

Is it not profound that Noah was 600 years old when the waters came to destroy all flesh?  Six being the pinnacle number of man in his flesh before he moves to the 7 of completion and then the 8 of new beginnings.  (The number of mankind is 666...3 sixes to signify a process)

Genesis 7:7
And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons' wives with him went into the ark to escape the waters of the flood.

The Elect are not:

1 Thessalonians 5:9
destined for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

The Elect who endure to the end and overcome the world (thru Jesus) :

Revelation 2:11
will not be hurt by the second death.

And so on and so on.....everything means something other than just what it says: numbers, colors, objects, people, events etc all symbolize something spiritual in the plan of God.

Of course, I know I don't understand all of it, but what I'm trying to show you is that all of this is specifically in the plan of God and when you study deeper, pray harder, and meditate longer you begin to see the depths of the message God is sending to His Elect throughout these generations.

To say that God had to "step in" because "man was going out of control" suggests that God is having to resort to Plan B, or He's operating things by the seat of his pants and almost anything can happen outside of God's will if man continues to run amok. 

Either God is Sovereign and in control of all things, or He is not.

I believe everything is precisely and exquisitely worked out by God.  Even that which seems evil, because God sees the beginning from the end and He alone knows what His ultimate intentions are, but we can have confidence that they are good.

Genesis 50:20
you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive

Romans 11:32
For God has made all people prisoners of disobedience, so that he might show mercy to them all.


I believe the story of Noah and the flood is just another type/pattern/shadow/clue of the same theme woven throughout the bible.......God's plan to save the many through the few.

This plan has never changed.

Hope that explains somewhat how I can be confident that God is not forced to intervene according to man's actions, but rather is working out His perfect plan through the ages according to His will and purpose.

Peace to you,
Diana

hillsbororiver:
Hi sonophone,

Actually I saw many answers to your questions but perhaps they were not worded or phrased in the manner you were seeking, often analogies must be used to present ideas and thoughts, sometimes these analogies need to be meditated on to get a clearer understanding.

This piece I cut and pasted from Ray (LOF Part 3) goes into depth in regard to "Punishment vs. Chastisement" Ray makes a solid case in showing that too much emphasis is put on "punish," this word has been the result of many mis translations in the KJV and other versions.

This "correcting" which can be painful, strange and even bizarre is part of the creation of God as He transforms His mortal creatures into immortal Sons and Daughters, this "strange work" (Isa 28:21) has been questioned throughout the ages and Paul sums it up here;

Rom 9:20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?


PUNISHING VS. CHASTENING

While considering all of the hellfire and brimstone material disseminated by Christian teachers, preachers, writers, and educators around the world, just how many hundreds of times do you suppose the word "punishment" is used in the entire New Testament with regards to sinners? Hundreds? Would you believe less than fifty? Would you believe less than ten? Would you believe ONCE? That’s right, the answer is one time.

"Of how much more punishment [Gk: timoria], suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Heb. 10:29).

I can assure you that those who have committed the above crime towards the Lord are few indeed. Most of humanity that will be judged in the lake of fire have NEVER EVEN HEARD of Jesus Christ, let alone, "trodden under foot the Son of God, and counted the blood of the covenant, an UNHOLY thing, and done DESPITE unto the Spirit of grace." Most have never even heard of such sins, let along committed them.

This is a most powerful Scripture to be sure, but it does not speak of "eternal" punishment, and it is the ONLY SCRIPTURE IN THE ENTIRETY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT that uses the word "punishment" with reference to punishing sinners!

There are three other places in the KJV that the word "punish" or "punished" is used correctly. They are Acts 4:21; 22:5; and 26:11 where it Saul (later Paul) is punishing not sinners, but members of the church, the followers of Christ.

II Thes. 1:9 should be translated, "eonian extermination" and not "punished ... everlasting."

II Peter 2:4 & 9 should both be "chastening" as it is the same Greek word kolazo and not timoria which means punish.

The KJV uses "punished" in verse nine, which should be "chasten," and ironically it doesn’t even translate the Greek word kolazo (chasten) in verse four -- the KJV translators left it out completely. I suppose the translators thought that it was redundant to say, "chastening judging." But then again, they didn’t bother to look at II Cor. 2:6 which should read "rebuke" (another Greek word, epitimia), not "punish."

And lastly, I Pet. 2:14 should read "vengeance" ( still another Greek word, kdikesise), and not punishment.

So in the case of "punishment" we have but ONE Scripture to deal with, and we will deal with it.

This next fact doesn’t necessarily "prove" anything, it’s just the way my mind works. Jesus Christ said:

"O generation of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the ABUNDANCE of the heart the MOUTH SPEAKS" (Mat. 12:34).

I think we all understand that statement: What is heaviest and most dominant on out heart is what we talk about the most.

Now then, my observation. We learned of the one time that punishment is used in reference to sinners. Would you all be interested in knowing how many times the opposite of punishment is used? Okay, the word "mercy" (-ies, -iful) is found in the Bible over THREE HUNDRED AND THIRTY times! Could it be that the "abundance of God’s heart" consists of many more MERCIES than it does of vengeance and punishment?

Where do you suppose we find nearly a hundred of these occurrences? That’s right, in the writings of King David. No wonder blind Bartimaeus ...

"began to cry out, and say, Jesus, thou Son OF DAVID, have MERCY on me" (Mk. 10:47).

God promised to give His Son "... the sure MERCIES OF DAVID" (Acts 13:34). You see, David’s heart spoke such an abundance about God’s mercies, that God said of him:

"... I have found DAVID the son of Jesse, a man AFTER MINE OWN HEART which shall fulfill all my will" (Acts 13:22).

Three hundred and thirty to ONE! Probably doesn’t mean a thing. Just an observation.

By the way, even among those who love the doctrine of eternal torment, no Scripture in the Old Testament has ever been brought forth which even vaguely defends their theory.

PUNISHMENT AND THE GOSPEL

For all those who have never heard the real Gospel of God, here it is:

"How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that brings good tidings, that publish peace; that brings GOOD TIDINGS [that means gospel] of GOOD [not evil tidings of a Lord who administers infinite acts of eternal terrorism], that publishes SALVATION [not DAMNATION] ... The LORD hath made bare His holy arm in the eyes of ALL THE NATIONS [that’s the whole world], and ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH [that’s everyone] SHALL SEE THE SALVATION OF OUR GOD" (Isa. 52:7 & 10).

I am wondering if most of my readers have ever even heard of this verse or knew that it is in their Bibles.

Now I am aware of the many Scriptures that speak of death, destruction, and perishing of wicked people. And we won’t forget the one Scripture with regards to punishment. All those Scriptures are true. They are not, however, God’s final judgment on the wicked. The final judgments of God will bring salvation to all and there are no scriptures that contradict those saving declarations of Almighty God. God has declared it; He has spoken it; His Word has gone forth: He has willed --

"Who WILL have ALL men to be SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (I Tim. 2:4).

Here then is a declaration of God from His own inspired Word. It is found in all Bibles and in all languages on earth for all too see and believe. But the Church of Babylon has tried to destroy this declaration and make it of no effect in the minds of millions and millions of people around the world. They teach that this verse and declaration of Almighty God WILL NEVER EVER HAPPEN! Well, be it known, that they LIE!

Here’s what God says about His own words and His own declarations.

"So shall MY WORD BE that GOES FORTH OUT OF MY MOUTH [as in I Tim. 2:4 and a hundred Scriptures like it]; it shall NOT return unto me void [unfruitful, negated, ineffective, ineffectual, inoperative, invalid, null, worthless, vain, unsuccessful], but it SHALL ACCOMPLISH THAT WHICH I PLEASE, AND IT SHALL PROSPER [bear fruit, benefit, do well, flourish, increase, multiply, progress, make good] in the thing whereto I sent it" (Isaiah 55:11).

Oh, the audacity and blasphemy of those who proudly teach that God cannot and will not ever accomplish His own will, save five percent! Does Isaiah 55:11 sound like only a FIVE PERCENT gospel that Christendom is preaching around the world for TEN PERCENT of your money? Like those who crucified our Lord, they know not what they say, and God will forgive them too. But for those who are ready to learn and believe, let’s see how God answers such utter foolishness:

Remember the former things of old:
For I am God, and there is none else;
I AM GOD, and there is none like Me,
"Telling from the BEGINNING, the HEREAFTER,
And from AFORETIME, what has NOT YET been done,
Saying, ‘ALL MY COUNSEL SHALL BE CONFIRMED,
And ALL MY DESIRE WILL I DO.
Calling from the sunrise, a bird of prey,
From a land far off, the man of My counsel.
Indeed, I SPEAK! INDEED, I WILL BRING IT ABOUT!
I formed. Indeed, I WILL DO IT" (Isaiah 46:9-11).

Nothing can hinder God’s words or declarations. Even the things that are perceived to be hindrances to God’s will (such as the lake of fire and the second death), are not hindrances at all, but rather are the very instruments for the accomplishment of His will. God has a ONE HUNDRED PERCENT GOSPEL, AND IT’S FREE!

Read the entire article here;

http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

hillsbororiver:
In regard to The Flood, here are a couple references made by Ray, Diana was right on the money with "many called, few chosen," The Flood was a shadow of things to come at the Resurrection; It is the church that teaches God has to backtrack and change His plan when in fact He has been and will continue to execute His plan perfectly.

First the physical then the spiritual.......

Ray,

Another question. What does the flood symbolize / shadow? My husband has been taught that it shows how we are saved / salvation process, but pretty much the whole world died, so I'm thinking that can't be it.

Plus aside from what it foreshadows, what will happen to all those wicked people that perished? Will they be saved too? How do we know this?

Thanks, as always,

Margaret

[Ray Replies]

Dear Margaret:

Everything in the Bible for-shadows Christ in some way. All of humanity save Noah and his family were BAPTIZED INTO LITERAL WATER AND DROWNED TO DEATH.

How does this for-shadow Christ?

Once again, the WHOLE WORLD will die and rise in Judgment at the great white throne of Rev. 20. But what about the "few"--Noah and his family? What do they picture?

Of the "many who are called but FEW chosen," it is the "FEW" who are SPIRITUALLY BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST'S DEATH, which then GIVES US LIFE!  Unless a seed DIE, it cannot give life. We must DIE to our old man in order to become a NEW CREATURE in Christ.

The lake of fire is God's final act of saving grace. All humanity not saved before the lake of fire, will be saved THROUGH THE SPIRITUAL AND DIVINE LAKE OF FIRE OF GOD'S SPIRIT. That is the purpose for the lake of fire--TO SAVE THE WORLD (See Phil. 2:9-11, Isa. 26:9, I Tim. 2:4, 4:10, etc., etc.).

God be with you,

Ray

And....

Dear readers it is always, just the FEW who will be in Christ in His glory in the first resurrection. All of the rest, ALL of them, will come up in the Second Resurrection, and white throne judgment with its "lake of fire and second death."

I feel it necessary to show you just how sobering our Lord’s statement to the churches really is. Not many escaped the flood that came on the world in Noah’s day because the thoughts of men were only evil continually,

"…while the ark was a preparing, wherein FEW, that is, eight souls were saved…" (I Pet. 3:20).

Are things better now? NO, Paul said things would get worse AND WORSE.

"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and FEW there be that find it" (Matt. 7:14).

"So the last shall be first, and the first last: and many be called, but FEW chosen" (Matt. 20:16).

"For many are called, but FEW are chosen" (Matt. 22:14).

From LOF Part 8 http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page