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Author Topic: Eve deceived?  (Read 5054 times)

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sonofone

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Eve deceived?
« on: September 20, 2007, 09:26:27 PM »

For those of you avid Ray readers I apologize up front for asking questions that may have already been covered by Ray. I try to read as much of it as I can in my available time, so here goes. Eve was deceived by the serpent not Adam. When the bible says she gave to Adam who was there with her,what's that say about Adam? And if we are compared to Adam or better yet Christ the second Adam. What did Adam do by eating the fruit Eve gave her?
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Eve deceived?
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2007, 10:43:48 PM »

Hi sonofone,

There is a segment of last yrs Mobile conference (2nd & 3rd audio) where Ray spoke about Adam and Eve, here is an excerpt form that transcript, there is a lot more details on the audio.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.msg27966.html#msg27966 ----------------

Now a interesting thing.  It says in Tim. 2:14, that when Eve took the forbidden fruit she was deceived, the serpent had deceived her.  But Adam was not deceived.  Well if she was deceived, and she ate the fruit.  Why did Adam eat it?  He wasn’t deceived, so why did he eat it?  Why didn’t he say you dumb female, you stupid wife of mine.  How could you do such a dumb thing.  No, no he did not.  She gave him some and he ate it too. 
Why, would he do that?  He knew.  Because God told him first, and He told him specifically.  And we know Eve knew because she said to the serpent, “God has said.”  But first He said it to Adam before he created Eve.  You can eat of every tree but of this tree you can not and the day you eat there of you will DIE. (Gen. 2:16-17)
In the Hebrew, ‘to die you shall be dying.”  You will begin to die, you will be mortal and just die.  You will be mortal and come to old age and die.  So he knew that, he knew that when Eve ate it she was going to die.  He longed for that woman so long and now she is going to die.  He loved her so much, he said if she is going to die, I’m going to die with her, and he ate the fruit.  He knew full well he would die, and he said I’m going with her.  I’m not going to let her go alone, you see.  So he was willing to die for that woman.
You see any spiritual connections?

Eph 5:25  Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it [He died],
v. 26  that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word,
v. 27  that He might present it to Himself as the glorious church, without spot or wrinkle or any such things, but that it should be holy and without blemish.
v. 28  So men ought to love their wives as their own bodies.

The first woman came from the body of man.

v. 28 “He who loves his wife loves himself.
v. 29  For no man ever yet hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, even as the Lord loves the church.
v. 30  For we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones.”

Adam said to the woman, she is flesh of my flesh, bone of my bone, she came out of me.

So we are members of His body, flesh of his flesh and it says;

Gen 2:24 For this cause, will a man leave his father and his mother, and cleave unto his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

When a man and a woman are united ........They are one flesh, in that relationship, you see.  And that is why you’re not suppose to fornicate with prostitutes.  Because when you’re joined to a prostitute you’re one flesh too, and that’s an abomination.  You cling to your wife, not your wife and your girl friend and the local whore.  Your wife, because your one flesh, you see.
This is a great mystery it says.  But I’m speaking concerning Christ and His church.  The relationship of Christ with the church, it typified by the relationship of a loving husband and a loving wife in sexual intercourse.  When they are so emotionally intertwined with one another, that they are literally one flesh.  This is the relationship we’re going to have with God.  Christ refers to the church as the Bride of Christ. 
The bride is going to be all decorated, by that we mean, made spotless and sure and clean, character wise.  A fitting Bride for the creator of the universe.

Paul taught the church in Ephesians, this mystery of a man and a woman coming together.  You know after a man longs for a woman for so long, and I’m saying years..........that’s what I believe.
But for years and finally he, “at last” there you are.  There you are, the one I’ve been dreaming of.  This was a big deal.
They don’t make it a big deal out of it in the King James.  Because Adam says, “This is flesh of my flesh.”  NO, exclamation point, “at last!”  finally!  This is it!  Yes!  My woman! 
Emphatically the emotion is expressed in that word ‘now.’ 
Seven other translations got it right. 
Doesn’t that convey something of joy in the heart of God.

When Paul comes along and says this very thing we’re talking about, he’s talking about Christ and the church.
You see it’s a great spiritual lesson, this union of a husband and a wife, what it should be.  How a husband should love a wife and how a wife should love a husband.  I mean really love each other dearly.
This is how Christ loves the church, and died for it.
Just as the husband and wife become one flesh, God wants to be that intimate with humanity, like one flesh.

John 10:30  “I and the Father are one!”

They’re not the same person, but ‘one,’ there’s a difference.
But one, same spirit, same mind, same attitude, same character, same power, same strength, same wisdom, same purpose, they are one.
And that’s what God wants us to be with Him, that close, one.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Audio 2 & 3,
http://bible-truths.com/audio/9-2-06MobileConf.2.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/9-2-06MobileConf.3.mp3

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: September 20, 2007, 10:48:25 PM by Kat »
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sonofone

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Re: Eve deceived?
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2007, 11:28:22 PM »

This info and link is priceless. your timeliness is in your response is greatly appreciated. Thanks
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Gregor

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Re: Eve deceived?
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2007, 03:00:30 PM »

Greetings,
Rom 5:14 NKJV, "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come."

I found this verse and it made me wonder what was the likeness of the transgression of Adam which was different from "even those who had not sinned according to..."? Even those who believed and didn't test God were subject to death. I'm not sure that I agree that Adam loved his wife so much that he was willing to lay down his life for her, (as christ did for us, his bride). Here's why:

Read John 10:1-18. (Seriously, read it, lots to ponder!) Notice vs.11,12 NKJV, "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives his life for the sheep. But he who is a hireling and not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them."

Gen. 2:15 "Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend (dress) and keep(protect) it." Adam was definately not fulfilling his purpose, and was a bad shepherd.

John 14:15,16, "If you love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever." (Unlike Adam and Eve)

John 15:9-17, "As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My comandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy man remain in you, and that your joy may be full. This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends. Your are my friends if you do whatever I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name he may give you. These things I command you, that you love one another."

I'm wondering if Adam himself wasn't testing God, kinda like a little kid watching their younger sibling, "try it first" to see what would happen. When Eve ate and didn't instantly die, maybe Adam then took the "hook". Then when they were exposed (undressed), Adam still showed a lack of love for Eve saying, "The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate." (Gen.3:12) blaming her. In any case, I'm convinced Adam's transgression was against God, by not believing him, not loving him, and not keeping his commandments. And I think that no one is able to truely LOVE, unless they first know God. In the flesh it's called lust. And just like with Judas, ungodly sorrow leads to death, not repentance.

G.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 03:38:41 PM by Gregor »
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chuckt

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Re: Eve deceived?
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2007, 03:49:38 PM »

Job 31:33  If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom:

if
I-mcovered
as·human
transgressions-of·me
to·to-bury-of
in·lap-of·me
depravity-of·me


Ps 89:47
Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain


Shav' TWOT - 2338a
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
shawv      Noun Masculine 
 
 Definition
emptiness, vanity, falsehood
emptiness, nothingness, vanity emptiness of speech, lying worthlessness (of conduct) 


 
Ro 8:20
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 


Mataiotes 4:523,571
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
mat-ah-yot'-ace      Noun Feminine 
 
 Definition
what is devoid of truth and appropriateness perverseness, depravity frailty, want of vigour 



adam was always naked, once he realized he was naked he tried to hide.

the worse thing we can do when God reveals our nakedness is to hide.

the best thing to do is turn to HIM and be clothed, clothed in CHRIST.


God bless

chuckt

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Gregor

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Re: Eve deceived?
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2007, 04:14:54 PM »

Thanks Chuckt!
Good insight. Adam was unrepentant. Instead of acknowledging his own sin and repenting, he became like the serpent, the accuser of the brethren, and tried to cover himself. Yikes. I'm amazed at how similar we all are. Thanks and Praise be to God for the hope of His salvation through Jesus Christ and the guarantee of His Spirit. ;D
In His Grace,
G.
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chuckt

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Re: Eve deceived?
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2007, 04:38:37 PM »

Thanks Chuckt!
Good insight. Adam was unrepentant. Instead of acknowledging his own sin and repenting, he became like the serpent, the accuser of the brethren, and tried to cover himself. Yikes. I'm amazed at how similar we all are. Thanks and Praise be to God for the hope of His salvation through Jesus Christ and the guarantee of His Spirit. ;D
In His Grace,
G.

greetings friend.

not only did he try and hide but he also blamed the woman instead of stepping up and covering HER.

LOVE covers sin.

Pro 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Pro 17:9 He that covereth a transgression seeketh love; but he that repeateth a matter separateth [very] friends.

this is really a good topic and one can see all kinds of stuff here.

1Cr 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.


clay was never ment to live forever.


peace and love
chuckt


« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 04:39:46 PM by chuckt »
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Kat

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Re: Eve deceived?
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2007, 05:12:46 PM »

Hi Gregor,

Gen 2:15  And Jehovah God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to work it and keep it.

I think this verse is specifically talking about the garden.  But I don't know that Adam failed to protect Eve.  I assume you mean he did not protect her from eating the apple.  But that was all in the plan of God, so it was the way things were destined to happen.

Quote
I'm convinced Adam's transgression was against God, by not believing him, not loving him, and not keeping his commandments. And I think that no one is able to truely LOVE, unless they first know God. In the flesh it's called lust.

All sin is ultimately aganist God, as He is the cause of all things.  Carnal humans indeed can not believe, love or keep the spirit of the commandments.

Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

But to say that man can not love his wife without knowing God.  That would only include those few given God's spirit now, that know God.  

1John 2:3  Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

1John 3:24  Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

So do you mean to say that the vast majority of humans, husbands and wives, do not have real love for one another?  I think there is more than just lust in many marriages.  I believe to have God's spirit helps us have a greater degee of love for all mankind and for our mates.  But I do believe I have experienced and seen in other marriages love beyond lust, even though being carnal minded.

Adam was a type and shadow of Christ, so it would seem, what Ray said would fit with Adam's love for Eve, is like Christ's love for His church.

Rom 5:14 "...who is a type of Him who was to come."

Eph 5:25  Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her,

Before God gave Moses the law there was still sin and death, even though the law was not specifically stated.  All those who live between Adam and Moses still sinned one way or another, even though they didn't have the law yet.  But Adam had been given the commandment not to eat the fruit directly from God.

Rom 5:12  Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--
v. 13  for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
v. 14  Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. (NIV)

Just some thoughts  :)

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 05:40:51 PM by Kat »
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Redbird

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Re: Eve deceived?
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2007, 06:01:59 PM »

Quote
Thanks Chuckt!
Good insight. Adam was unrepentant. Instead of acknowledging his own sin and repenting, he became like the serpent, the accuser of the brethren, and tried to cover himself. Yikes. I'm amazed at how similar we all are. Thanks and Praise be to God for the hope of His salvation through Jesus Christ and the guarantee of His Spirit.
In His Grace,
G.


greetings friend.

not only did he try and hide but he also blamed the woman instead of stepping up and covering HER.

LOVE covers sin.

Pro 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Pro 17:9 He that covereth a transgression seeketh love; but he that repeateth a matter separateth [very] friends.

this is really a good topic and one can see all kinds of stuff here.

1Cr 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.


clay was never ment to live forever.


peace and love
chuckt

Wow Guys!  Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Genesis 5: 1 THIS is the book of the generations of Adam.  In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;  2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

No mention of Eve here.  Guess the Lord's got her covered!  :)
Peace and Love, Lisa

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sonofone

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Re: Eve deceived?
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2007, 07:05:19 PM »

Same topic different question. Before the fall of Adam and Eve did there exist a husband wife relationship? I yhink not,at least not in the sense of one being the head and the other subserviant. This may seem like a superficial question, but it does have ramifications.
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Eve deceived?
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2007, 07:31:35 PM »


Hi sonofone,

Quote
Before the fall of Adam and Eve did there exist a husband wife relationship?

Gen 2:25  And they were both naked, the man and his wife; and they were not ashamed.

This scripture indicates that Eve was indeed considered Adam's wife, therefore the scripture states they were married.  And though there was not an actual fall, from where did they fall?  But as it says, "they were naked.... and not ashamed," it was before they ate the fruit and was thrown out of the garden.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Gregor

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Re: Eve deceived?
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2007, 09:01:56 PM »

Greetings,

In Gen. 3:16 God definately establishes the marriage heirarchy, saying to the woman, "your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you." This is after they both partook. So prior to this, Adam and Eve must have had equal liberty within the garden. Perhaps Adam took his command over the garden to the next level - not of his own will, but according to the sovereign plan of God.
Rom 8:20
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope
 
As for the reference to Gen. 2:15:

Hebrew word for dress: Strongs 5647 a-bad: prim. root - to serve, till, enslave - be, keep in bondage, bondman, bond-service, husbandman, labor, bring to pass, serve or servant, worshipper.
It is a very unique word, only used sparringly, mostly in reference to worshippers of Baal and different than the word used describing God's work (never servile) in the garden. Baal, Strongs 1168 same as 1167 from 1166: Having dominion over, a master, married, husband. 

Hebrew word for keep: Strongs 8104 shamar: prim. root - to hedge about (as with thorns) ie. guard, protect, attend to, - beware, be circumspect, take heed (to self), keep (-er, self), mark, look narrowly, observe, preserve, regard, save (self), sure, (that lay) wait (for), watch (-man)

See a pattern? I think Adam lusted after his wife, made an idol of her in his heart, because he could look upon her, touch and feel her, unlike God who is spirit, not flesh. Adam must have felt like a god, ruling the garden, having dominion over the animals. Pride of Life??

I don't know if the carnal mind is able to really know love, for God is Love. Love does not seek its own pleasure. Everything we do in our carnal mind is in response to the pay-off we get. We may think we "love" someone, romanticize it, whatever, but ultimately when it comes down to "love" between a man and a woman the bottem line is rooted in the flesh. Jesus says, Matt.19:11,12 "All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given: For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother's womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it." King David said, 2 Sam. 1:26 "I am distressed for you, my brother Jonathan; You have been very pleasant to me; your love to me was wonderful, surpassing the love of women." 1 Sam.18:1 shows their love was the same as the commandment Jesus gives to love your neighbor as yourself. First you must learn to love yourself, and that can only come from God, otherwise it is vanity. It is the marriage which makes the bed holy. Both physically and spiritually. Eph. 5:32 tells us this is a great mystery, so I will continue to look into it. I've got to go cause my wife's a callin'. We'll talk again soon. All the best,
G.


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sonofone

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Re: Eve deceived?
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2007, 12:52:49 AM »

Equal liberty. I was thinking this was true as well. If there is no male or female in Christ I believe this must have been the way it started off with respect to Adam & Eve. As the scriptures state after the fall her desire was to be to her husband.Wouldn't tis change the way we view there relationship prior to the fall. Adam would not have been responsible for her.She would have been just as responsible for herself. The biggest issue I have with this is Eve is totally divorced from this great fall as it concerns mankind. Adam is the one responsible for sinful mans condition. The bible says that he was not deceived? So why wasn't Eves choice the cause for our sinful condition?
« Last Edit: September 22, 2007, 12:58:11 AM by sonofone »
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Akira329

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Re: Eve deceived?
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2007, 01:32:54 AM »

Hey Everybody!
One of my first post in discussion!!!

It would seem to me that Adam did not love his wife the way christ loved the church.
Scripture speaks abundance about the condition of men and his carnel mind, is Adam not included in this number.
I thought Adam failed and Christ succeeded? If he did love, then which type: agape or phileo?
my brain is mush right now, help my understanding Lord

I look forward to everyones response, I need to be more involved in conversation around here!

Antaiwan
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"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
-Albert Einstein
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
- Jesus

hillsbororiver

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Re: Eve deceived?
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2007, 11:48:17 AM »

Hello Antaiwan (and everyone),

Great to see you posting here, it was a real pleasure meeting you at the Nashville Conference, are you coming to Mobile? I know I am looking forward to it.

This Adam and Eve topic is extremely interesting and I believe another example of the depth and multiple lessons/types/shadows and layers contained within so much of Scripture. Adam and Eve, natural carnal man's love/lust for a woman, many of us men I am sure have made reckless "damn the torpedos" decisions in regard to a woman we desired, was that inspired by a true and pure love? Or was it something else?

I can also see this as representing the called (but not chosen) and their love for their church/denomination and the comfort it provides them, the covering (being "saved") they imagine it provides. Within it there is a feeling they have what they really need and are in need of nothing more. Adam and Eve had to come to a point where their nakedness was revealed to them as those in the Judgement will;


Rev 3:17  Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable and poor and blind, and naked:

Didn't Adam lose his first love (God) to remain with the woman and the physical satisfaction she provided, did he not lose sight of the Creator instead focusing on the creation?

We see also the Lord providing skins to cover their nakedness, the first sacrifice that typified the ultimate covering/sacrifice for the sins of mankind, Jesus on the cross?


Gen 3:21  Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

We can also look at this as Adam not trusting God to save Eve and reconcile her to Him, so in a carnal display of love (without faith) he (Adam) demonstrated that he believed that his love for Eve was in fact superior to God's love for them both. Don't many of us have this within us as well? Or at least used to? Has there been times when looking at the state of this world that we think somehow we ourselves could have done it better, without all the pain, suffering and tribulation?
 
Job 4:17  Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

It is true though that man can and does good things for his own even in a carnal state, this physical existence does at times still provide opportunities for selflessness and generousity that we fulfil, but it is limited in scope only to be shared with very few, those we are especially fond of. We often do not excell in the command to love all men as we love ourselves, but often are quite good at loving our family, friends and those who we perceive to be in agreement with us or are agreeable to us.

Mat 7:11  If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

There are so many possible lessons here in this tiny portion of Genesis, it makes me even more in awe of our God. Many times through the years I have read and reread some very well written books that always seemed to bring out more and more detail through every read. The Word of God blows them all out of the water, it is not even close, as His Spirit opens our hearts and eyes we could spend a very long lifetime studying the Scriptures and still only barely scratch the surface of the Wisdom contained within it's pages.

I am not promoting or attempting to teach any of these postulations, my purpose in writing this was to demonstrate how my mind works when reading His Word and all the layers and textures of examples/types/shadows/truths that are in this miracle we call the Scriptures!
 

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe





 
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sonofone

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Re: Eve deceived?
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2007, 12:31:07 PM »

Archaeologist both fascinate& bore me. I love the things that they discover;however the tedious work involved disinterest me. I like to consider myself an archeologist of scripture or truth.AGAIN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS LIKE TREASURE HIDDEN IN A FIELD, WHICH HEN A MAN HATH FOUND, HE HIDETH,AND FOR JOY OF IT GOETH AND SELLETH ALL THAT HE HAS AND BUYETH THE FIELD. Christendom does not believe that the treasure,or the pearl is hidden. They don't believe that you have to excavate to find the truth. I do believe the opposite is true with all of my heart. So I agree with you Joe. Happy digging to one and all.
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Kat

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Re: Eve deceived?
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2007, 12:42:43 PM »



Hi Joe,

Thanks for sharing  :)
That just added another layer to my understanding.

sonofone, archeologist of the truth, I like that.

Pro 25:2  It is the glory of God to conceal a matter,
       But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Gregor

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Re: Eve deceived?
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2007, 03:43:45 AM »

Here's another tid-bit. Rom.4:17 says that God calls those things which are not, as though they were. In light of this, Gen.2:4,5 NKJV, " This (referring to Gen. chapter 1) is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created (planned), in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens(Gen.1:1), before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground;" Gen.3:23, "therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken." It is evident that the "fall" of man was included in God's purpose from the beginning. God is sovereign.
G.
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Akira329

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Re: Eve deceived?
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2007, 09:03:53 PM »

Hey Joe!!
Thanks for that comment you made, it helps in my understanding!!

I really do hope to see you guys in Mobile, I can hardly wait!!

Antaiwan
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"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
-Albert Einstein
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
- Jesus

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Eve deceived?
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2007, 09:47:46 PM »

Hi Antaiwan,

You are welcome Brother, looking forward to seeing you in Mobile too!

Peace,

Joe
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