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Force
Deborah-Leigh:
Contradiction
« on: Yesterday at 04:12:36 PM »
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L. Ray Smith,
You say in your newest article, “God forces no one to do His will”. I find this contradicts Scripture as well as your own writings.
You write in the Myth of Free Will (part A):
“The disciples all said that they would remain loyal. But Jesus said that they would all be offended because of Him. Was there a reason for God causing the disciples to will loyalty to Jesus and then in the same night to will to deny Jesus? Does God do anything in vain without a reason? This was all part of their conversion process. God totally humiliated them by proving to them that their own will was not free to do what they wanted, but that
"…it is God [not man] which works in you BOTH TO WILL [God causes us ‘to will’] and TO DO [God causes us ‘to do’] of His good pleasure" to bring about His intentions (Phil. 2:13).”
Here is another good example:
“Now we are aware that God is working all together for the good of those who are loving God, who are called according to the purpose’ that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren.’ Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls also, and whom He calls, these He justifies also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also.’” (Romans 8:29-30)
God is clearly in charge of every step of someone coming to Christ, enduring with Christ, and overcoming with Christ. Even if a man were to deny God after his calling, that would not be out of God’s Will.
“Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things.” (Isaiah 45:7)
I was looking up the definition of "force" and it has a quality of trying to influence someone or some thing to do something, not always with the results hoped for. So if you're using it in this sense, then perhaps this statement makes more sense (with more clarifying), seeing that God doesn't need to "force" us to do anything. However, if you're using it in the sense of "we're not robots", then I feel there is error. If I am wrong in my reading of the Scriptures, I hope God will have me come to see my error.
~Nicholas
Dear Nicholas: I am afraid you have done what hundreds before you have done, and that is to mis-quote my statements or take something out of context. You suggest that what I said and meant in the quotation above attributed to me is that God does not "force" anyone to do His will. You then define "force" as any "a quality of trying to influence." That is not the main definition of "force" with regards to persuading others that my dictionaries present. Here is how force is used in respect to trying to cause others to do what we want: "force, the use of physical power OR VIOLENCE to COMPEL or restrain."
That's a far cry from your definition of "a quality of trying to influence." From what dictionary did you find that definition? I don't think that my American Heritage College Dictionary could be that far off! Here's Webster's: "to achieve or win by strength in struggle or VIOLENCE." I believe my use of the word "force" is accurate, regardless of what some alternate definition of this word might suggest.
Notice carefully what I said that you did NOT quote:
"Some erroneously believe that if God were Sovereign and man had no free will, then God would force us to live righteously and godly; He would force us to love Him; He would FORCE US AGAINST OUR WILL to do His will; and such utter nonsense. God forces no one to do His will. Which of the apostles was forced to do the will of God against his will? The unscriptural arguments against the Sovereignty are but smoke and mirrors of the theologians.'
Notice: "He would FORCE US AGAINST OUR WILL to do His will." Why did you not include that most revealing statement of mine found in the very same paragraph? I believe that God "inspires" me to write the things that I do for bible-truths.com. I do NOT, however, believe that God "FORCES ME AGAINST MY WILL" to write the things that I do. Sorry if you cannot see this distinction.
My statements are clear and Scriptural. Hope this helps your understanding.
God be with you,
Ray
This latest email responce from Ray probed my understanding and produced a wonderful realization.
We know that the stated will of Peter was to even die if necessary with Jesus. When the chips were down, he denied even knowing Jesus. Why? Because God changed the circumstances surrounding Peter. Did this require force on Gods part. No. Was Peter FORCED by God to deny Jesus? NO! His circumstances simply showed that human will is no means by which we can follow Jesus.
We know that Peter believed emphatically that he would follow Jesus to death if necessary. God simply changed the circumstances and Peter responded out of his own heart condition, fears and weakness of heart that proved that Peter was not able to follow Jesus to death. Only after the Spirit of Christ strengthend him and became his strength did Peter become converted and enabled to follow Christ. That took the POWER of God not FORCE.Some can easily slip into the deception that the power of God is force.
It is all very well being bold in a comfort zone but in front of the firing squad that is where we reveal our real heart condition. God tests us. He does not force us. God's Power is not force it is Divine influence on our hearts by Grace....
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
Craig:
Good observation.
There is no doubt in my mind that if the same circumstances would have happened to Peter later in life he would have had a different answer.
Craig
Deborah-Leigh:
Amen to that Craig!
YellowStone:
Hi Arcturus :)
I am responding to what you wrote on the basis of clariification for others who are new.
--- Quote ---This latest email responce from Ray probed my understanding and produced a wonderful realization.
We know that the stated will of Peter was to even die if necessary with Jesus. When the chips were down, he denied even knowing Jesus. Why? Because God changed the circumstances surrounding Peter. Did this require force on Gods part. No. Was Peter FORCED by God to deny Jesus? NO! His circumstances simply showed that human will is no means by which we can follow Jesus.
We know that Peter believed emphatically that he would follow Jesus to death if necessary. God simply changed the circumstances and Peter responded out of his own heart condition, fears and weakness of heart that proved that Peter was not able to follow Jesus to death. Only after the Spirit of Christ strengthend him and became his strength did Peter become converted and enabled to follow Christ. That took the POWER of God not FORCE.Some can easily slip into the deception that the power of God is force.
It is all very well being bold in a comfort zone but in front of the firing squad that is where we reveal our real heart condition. God tests us. He does not force us. God's Power is not force it is Divine influence on our hearts by Grace....
Peace be to you
Arcturus
--- End quote ---
God did not change necessarily the circumstances that Peter faced in order for Peter to fall short of his bold claims. God simply knew that Peter was not Spiritually strong enough to stand firm when the time came that he should. I believe this is what you meant. :)
Certainly, Peter could not have known the fear of death prior to that night and God knew that. Just like He knows what each and everyone of us will do at any given time in any situation.
I posted this, because I do not believe that God changes plans on the fly; rather that He has had everything planned to the tiniest detail before the advent of time.
If I am mistaken, then please correct me. :)
Love in Christ our Saviour,
Darren
Gregor:
--- Quote from: YellowStone on September 26, 2007, 10:26:46 PM ---
God did not change necessarily the circumstances that Peter faced in order for Peter to fall short of his bold claims. God simply knew that Peter was not Spiritually strong enough to stand firm when the time came that he should. I believe this is what you meant. :)
Certainly, Peter could not have known the fear of death prior to that night and God knew that.
--- End quote ---
Greetings Darren,
I agree that God did have all this planned out. It is a fulfillment of scriptures:
Matt.26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.
Mark.14:27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.
John.16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
But this one I THINK applies specifically to Peter:
Luke.1:51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
I think Peter was a pretty brave and proud guy. He was a fisherman. He must have faced death before at sea. He was the one to volunteer to walk to Jesus on the water. He was quick to draw the sword in Jesus' defense in the garden. I think God wanted to prune the pride out of him. Any thoughts???
G.
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