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Author Topic: Two for One  (Read 6365 times)

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sonofone

  • Guest
Two for One
« on: October 10, 2007, 03:46:07 PM »

I had two questions for your consideration.Does it seem to you as it does for me that the four Gospels and the book of Acts would be better stated as transitional Gospels as opposed to New Testament Gospels.I say this because Jesus came to establish,and fulfill the Old Covenant while pointing to and in his death establishing the New Testament.The book of Acts it would seem begins the New Testament church however there was obviously a transition period for the church and the ushering in of the dispensation of Grace. Which it would seem did not come into effect all at one time.Which leads me two my second question.Did the dispensation of Grace cause God to deal with man in a different way? By this I mean did the fact that God was now allowing man time to grow in the faith thereby withholding immediate judgement also cause God to stop the flow or onslaught of signs and wonders including miracles.Tongues for instance was a sign to the unbeliever because men were able to speak with other identifiable languages which were not there own,yet that sign is now gone and appears left shortly after the Church was established.The last known record of God executing instant judgement was in the book of Acts when he killed Ananias and Sapphira's up until this time it was common for God to strike you down instantly,or command or allow men to kill you instantly if you sinned.This is not happening now not with God or man.So Is the dispensation of grace the cause for the two way silence of heaven?That is to say his silence in judgement,and miracles.
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Gregor

  • Guest
Re: Two for One
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2007, 07:42:28 PM »

Greetings,
It seems that words are very ambiguous and do cause confusion. I suppose it depends on how you want to look at it. Certainly, when we look at things in the time-space continuum from a human perspective, there are transitional periods. But when we look at things through God's eyes: Rom.4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were and 2Pet.3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

I would suggest that it is man's understanding that is slow on receiving the dispensation of Grace, and that it is already complete - we just need to wake up, catch up with God, if you know what I mean. I do not believe that God has stopped the flow of signs and wonders, but more likely that we, by our unbelief and ignorance (mostly due to the false teachings/doctrines of man) and personal corruption limit the flow. I am convinced that it is man who is changing, and not for the better, and that God remains the same. Perhaps God does still execute swift and instant judgement, only no one is writing it down for our admonition anymore. People drop dead all over the world, and write it off as a medical heart attack, whatever, when it could be the hand of God's judgement. Man continues to try and disprove the existence of God, and place himself in that position as God. Some healings still occur today, only they are written off as coincidence or not medically documented or not given the priority in the news. When we see things on tv, we question, we discredit, etc. and become like doubting Thomas who had to personally witness with his own eyes before he would believe. Blessed are those who live by faith, by the word of God, and not by sight. I don't personally experience this two way silence from Heaven you refer to. I feel like God is talking to me relentlessly, (I couldn't get away from Him no matter how hard I tried) and shows me personally all kinds of signs and wonders throughout my life. I pray that God will give you ears to hear and eyes to see. (I know he's already giving you that, but I just mean more of it ;) ) I hope this helps shed some light on your questions.
Your brother in Christ,
G.
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Word Student

  • Guest
Re: Two for One
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2007, 08:27:30 PM »

Often in our search for truth in understanding the past indoctrination we've received from Christendom raises many obstacles.

Our Father and the Lamb are very patient with us though and will provide as much insight as we are able to comprehend when we are able to receive it.  These "bursts" of insight may come in surprising and unexpected ways.

Your discussion raises good questions and will ultimately lead to your finding the understanding you seek.

Persist in your asking of questions and constantly ask our Father to provide wisdom and understanding through all whom He chooses.  Sometimes it is very hard to "let go" of what we have believed to be truth when we find contradictory true light in the word.

The truth of the Gospel and the Kingdom to come is simple and uncomplicated.  It has been made very complex and incomprehensible by the Adversary and his agents.

Our "blindness" is only temporary and will dissolve away, as Saul's did, with exposure to the light of the Word.



 

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sonofone

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Re: Two for One
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2007, 09:00:38 PM »

Hey, word student,welcome to the board and thanks for your post.Thanks to you to G,I appreciate your feedback,and will consider it in light of what I have suggested.Thanks again to both of you for your response.
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sonofone

  • Guest
Re: Two for One
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2007, 01:27:10 PM »

This post really hasn't gotten off the ground so far,does it appear to be irrelevant to what God is doing in our lives, or are we just of no opinion on this topic?I think it would help to get clarification on this issue for in my opinion it would have serious ramifications on how we view scriptures. For instance G you mentioned that God is not silent in your life and you contend that miracles do still happen only they go undocumented. I believe you are also of the opinion that God still passes instant judgement suggesting that not every death is naturally caused. I say that there is room for what you say without it dismissing what I am suggesting. I don't think that any reasonable person can disagree that Miracles,signs and wonders are not in existence to the extent that they were after the church got it's start so to speak,further it is impossible for any reasonable person to say that the four gospels did not show Jesus upholding the Old Testament,so why should it be considered a New Testament writing? The reason why I think we should make this distinction is because people will quote the words of Jesus as scriptural authority for the new covenant when in certain cases they should only be applied to the old covenant.Just look at how Jesus addressed the Syrophinecian woman. It was her faith and persistent faith at that that granted her what she was asking for. Jesus said he did not come but for the lost sheep of Israel,it was not right to give the children's bread to the dogs, These are obviously Old covenant or transitional doctrine teachings.If we can see this I think we can move away from viewing this bible in a static view and see it as a dynamic gospel or evolving or changing maturing gospel.Even Ray shows some of these distinctions as in the Apostles doing baptisms early in there ministry but moving away from it later in there ministry. I believe you guys are leaving a lot of meat on  this bone by ignoring this post.That is of  course your choice however.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2007, 01:50:47 PM by sonofone »
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Gregor

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Re: Two for One
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2007, 02:55:12 PM »

Greetings sonofone,

Just a few comments (Your words in blue, my response in black)

I think it would help to get clarification on this issue for in my opinion it would have serious ramifications on how we view scriptures.

If God has given you revelation on a truth, it will only have serious ramifications on how you view the scriptures. Not that you can't share this revelation (I encourage you to!) in hope that the spirit will open their eyes too, but remember that it is God who must do the eye opening. I can't tell you how many times in my life God has given me that "ah-ha" moment, where the lightbulb goes on and I finally see some truth ever-so-clear. Then, excitedly, I try to share it with others and they sit there looking at me like, "oh, yeah, ok" or "well duh" or with a blank, "so what?" stare or like I'm just crazy, and I then would feel stupid for even trying to explain the wonderful revelation I just received. Don't be discouraged when others don't share in the same excitement as you, or when they "just don't get it." Continue sharing your portion with others, but always take the revelation to heart (as very special) for it was given to you, yourself and see what serious ramifications happen in your walk/understanding.

I don't think that any reasonable person can disagree that Miracles,signs and wonders are not in existence to the extent that they were after the church got it's start so to speak,

I would have to disagree in part with what you say. I think we read of all the miracles, signs and wonders written in the bible (for our admonition), and then assume that they're not to that extent today. But that is limited to individual perspective. I'm convinced, as I've heard testimony of many miracles, signs/wonders, from people who smuggle bibles into communist china, or Russia, etc. or from missionaries, and just other normal people who've had God do something for them in the course of their normal everyday lives. You're driving your car, go to pull out from one street turning onto another. You look both ways - appears clear, and then start to pull out. Suddenly out of nowhere theres another vehicle that zooms by almost hitting you and potentially killing you. You say to yourself, "Oh my god, that was close. I could have died." Then you drive on, be it a little shaken at your "near death experience" and may never give it a second thought. But know forsure that it is by God's hand that you have your breath of life and very being. It is often by His divine intervention and grace that we have lived the life we live. Others will always have different stories - the key is in connecting with them. It should be interesting (Judgement Day) when our lives are exposed for all to see at just how many signs/wonders and miracles God has done. Unfortunately, often these things go completely unreported, unrecorded, and sometimes unrecognized for what they are and who's their source. But if everything Jesus ever did (and still does by His Spirit) were to be recorded, there wouldn't be room for it in a library.

further it is impossible for any reasonable person to say that the four gospels did not show Jesus upholding the Old Testament,so why should it be considered a New Testament writing?

Jesus is the "New Testament" and he is the "Old Testament", and he made a better covenant with us than the works of the Law ever could. His words on the cross, "It is finished" have always facinated me. What is that "IT" he speaks of?

Jesus said he did not come but for the lost sheep of Israel,it was not right to give the children's bread to the dogs, These are obviously Old covenant or transitional doctrine teachings.

Yes, and that was because the Jews were the ones who had to reject their own messiah that He might reconcile all man to Himself. Remember how Paul talks about their unbelief and disobedience is part of the plan, and for our benefit?? Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
[28] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
[29] For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
[30] For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
[31] Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
[32] For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
[33] O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

If we can see this I think we can move away from viewing this bible in a static view and see it as a dynamic gospel or evolving or changing maturing gospel.

If you see the entire Word of God (Scriptures both OT/NT) in light of the Word is Jesus then you will realize that: Heb.4:12 For the word of God is living, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Pretty serious ramifications, I agree!
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sonofone

  • Guest
Re: Two for One
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2007, 04:16:55 PM »

Thanks for responding G and as always you leave me with many things to digest and ponder.Thanks again
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Gregor

  • Guest
Re: Two for One
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2007, 07:20:26 PM »

Greetings sonofone,
Just thought I'd add a little more meat for you to chew on ;D:
1Cor.11:
[19] For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
[28] But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
[29] For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
[30] For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
[31] For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

I always appreciate your questions and input too.
Peace
G.
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sonofone

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Re: Two for One
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2007, 01:43:39 AM »

For the record G, I do believe in miracles,and that God is capable of passing judgement as the scripture you mentioned many sleep. What I am asking you to agree with or consider is how many church people take communion and live and not die? I just believe that it is obvious that God deals with the current church in a different way than he did during the old testament and the transition period. If we could get consensus on this I believe it would help heal our understanding of what God is doing and what he is requiring of us.
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indianabob

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Re: Two for One, OT to NT
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2007, 12:55:19 PM »

sonofone,

regarding the OT NT.
I'm sure that you are aware that the 'people of God' in the O.T. didn't have the indwelling holy spirit.  Their requirement was that they obey the leaders set over them by observing the written law.  It seems to me then, that they didn't obey out of love for God although perhaps from respect reverence and fear of consequences.  Isn't that the major difference between the OT and the New better covenant?

I would also note that many if not most people that we contact in churches are not the spiritual people of God in the best sense.  Most attend out of habit rather than a desire to please God based upon true knowledge.  So what kind of miracles should we expect and with what frequency?

From the perspective of a believer in the time of the apostles, was there a transition that was obvious to them.  The letters of the NT were some time in coming and the folks there had the same background that they had grown up with.  True, they now had the REAL Messiah and were thrilled about that and they had the teaching that the law would no longer be a confusing burden as administered by the priests, but their faith, it seems to me, was pretty basic and simple and based upon the promises in the OT along with the clarifications provided by Jesus through the apostles.  e.g. love your enemies

Comment?

Bob
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sonofone

  • Guest
Re: Two for One, OT to NT
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2007, 01:34:32 PM »

sonofone,

regarding the OT NT.
I'm sure that you are aware that the 'people of God' in the O.T. didn't have the indwelling holy spirit.  Their requirement was that they obey the leaders set over them by observing the written law.  It seems to me then, that they didn't obey out of love for God although perhaps from respect reverence and fear of consequences.  Isn't that the major difference between the OT and the New better covenant?

I would also note that many if not most people that we contact in churches are not the spiritual people of God in the best sense.  Most attend out of habit rather than a desire to please God based upon true knowledge.  So what kind of miracles should we expect and with what frequency?

From the perspective of a believer in the time of the apostles, was there a transition that was obvious to them.  The letters of the NT were some time in coming and the folks there had the same background that they had grown up with.  True, they now had the REAL Messiah and were thrilled about that and they had the teaching that the law would no longer be a confusing burden as administered by the priests, but their faith, it seems to me, was pretty basic and simple and based upon the promises in the OT along with the clarifications provided by Jesus through the apostles.  e.g. love your enemies

Comment?

Bob
SONOFONE: Bob if I understand your question [properly it is an interesting one indeed to me. That is  was there an obvious transition,concerning the apostles? Which is to say was it obvious to them? I have pondered such matters in my head for years. I have wondered things like did Paul and other writers of the Epistles believe that there letters which were sent to address specific issues in a specific space in time would one day be read,believed,followed misapplied for ages to come. In other words were they aware that they were writing the new testament? I will stop short for now on giving my opinion as there may be some teaching by Ray out there that I am unaware of so I'll yield the floor to one who might already have a response to this question. But if no response is available ,than I guess it's fair game at that time to give My take on it.
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Gregor

  • Guest
Re: Two for One
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2007, 02:49:07 PM »

Greetings,
Interesting question indeed. Since you started this post, sonofone, I've been thinking about it too. Were the apostles writing specifically to the converted Jews who were in Rome, Corinth, etc. or including the newly converted Gentiles? Did the Samaratin converts attend the churches of God? I wonder too about whether they knew their letters would be studied 2000 years later by people from the opposite side of the globe, a totally different race, upbringing, and perspective. The first epistle of John was written to "My little children", the second epistle written to "the elect lady, and her children," and the third written to "the beloved Gaius", all from "the elder, John." So we have totally different audiences, written in a different time/place/culture/etc but written to Jews. Then Jude was written to "those who are called and sanctified..." I wonder how the letters would read had the apostles  been  writing specifically to us converted Gentiles in our day and age. This also leads me to believe that many a false doctrine could easily be invented by a carnal mind trying to interpret the spiritual truth found in these letters. One thing is for certain, all this confusion just reaffirms the need for the Saviour and our faith in Him.
2John.1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
May we learn to discern the doctrine of Christ, and abide in it.
Peace.
G.
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Two for One
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2007, 04:31:51 PM »


I can not see how the Apostles could have foreseen what was to be in the future.  I believe that some of them may have though Christ could return to their own generation.  Even though I think they wrote what they did very carefully, with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.  But for them to think that 2000 years later Christ would not have returned yet and that their letters are being gone over with a fine tooth comb all these hundreds of years.  I don't think they realized that.

Here are a few emails that may be have some significance here.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3587.0.html ------

Hello Ray
What is your understanding of PRESENT TRUTH?
 
Reuben
 
When Peter wrote those words it was the truth that they THEN had.
For us it is the truth that we NOW have. Unfortunately the Church
LOST the truth that they then had, and NEVER LEARNED the truth
which we now have.
 
God be with me,
Ray

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2900.0.html ------

what about the Gospel writers? Were they supposed to have received revelation, even down to actual quotations of Jesus? Forgive my ignorance on the subject. Also, why do you think it took so long after Jesus' death before people started writing about him?
     
    Sincerely,
    Russ

    Dear Russ:
    Never been asked this question.
    I believe that they did write about Him and His sayings from the beginning. And I believe that is why they knew how to quote Jesus accurately. There may have been many letters and manuscripts recording what Jesus did here and what He said over there, etc.  Also, as time when on and those who did see and hear and know Jesus became fewer and fewer through death, it became necessary to put to ink and scroll as much as anyone could remember, along with those teachings that were actually written down, here and there and maybe almost everywhere.
    The gospel of John, of course, was written by the Apostole John, and so he knew everything first hand, but even he may have had to consult manuscripts which had earlier recorded the actual quotations, places, dates, etc..
    God be with you,
    Ray

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sonofone

  • Guest
Re: Two for One
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2007, 04:35:21 PM »


I can not see how the Apostles could have foreseen what was to be in the future.  I believe that some of them may have though Christ could return to their own generation.  Even though I think they wrote what they did very carefully, with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.  But for them to think that 2000 years later Christ would not have returned yet and that their letters are being gone over with a fine tooth comb all these hundreds of years.  I don't think they realized that.

Here are a few emails that may be have some significance here.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3587.0.html ------

Hello Ray
What is your understanding of PRESENT TRUTH?
 
Reuben
 
When Peter wrote those words it was the truth that they THEN had.
For us it is the truth that we NOW have. Unfortunately the Church
LOST the truth that they then had, and NEVER LEARNED the truth
which we now have.
 
God be with me,
Ray

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2900.0.html ------

what about the Gospel writers? Were they supposed to have received revelation, even down to actual quotations of Jesus? Forgive my ignorance on the subject. Also, why do you think it took so long after Jesus' death before people started writing about him?
     
    Sincerely,
    Russ

    Dear Russ:
    Never been asked this question.
    I believe that they did write about Him and His sayings from the beginning. And I believe that is why they knew how to quote Jesus accurately. There may have been many letters and manuscripts recording what Jesus did here and what He said over there, etc.  Also, as time when on and those who did see and hear and know Jesus became fewer and fewer through death, it became necessary to put to ink and scroll as much as anyone could remember, along with those teachings that were actually written down, here and there and maybe almost everywhere.
    The gospel of John, of course, was written by the Apostole John, and so he knew everything first hand, but even he may have had to consult manuscripts which had earlier recorded the actual quotations, places, dates, etc..
    God be with you,
    Ray


So Kat is this topic now fair game? as Ray has no specific teaching on this matter?
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Two for One
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2007, 05:54:12 PM »

Hello sonofone

My response in blue and your observations and questions in black font. Please note : Caps are used to identify what is accented in my mind and is not used to imply any superiority or highhandedness or looking down on your valuable contribution.


I had two questions for your consideration.Does it seem to you as it does for me that the four Gospels and the book of Acts would be better stated as transitional Gospels as opposed to New Testament Gospels.

Transitional? What for? Why?


I say this because Jesus came to establish,and fulfill the Old Covenant while pointing to and in his death establishing the New Testament.

This is why Jesus came.
Gal 3 : 8…the reason the Son of God was made manifest was to undo, destroy, loosen, and dissolve the works the devil has done.

Rom 8 : 3 For what the law could NOT DO, in that it was weak through the flesh, God SENDING HIS OWN SON in the likeness of sinful flesh and as a sin offering, condemned sin in the flesh. 4 that the righteousness of the law might be FULFILLED IN US who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.


The book of Acts it would seem begins the New Testament church

This is certainly the one of the views of Babylonian teachings that aspires to Cell Group Home Churches as a means by which they attempt to imitate the activities of Paul as he visited the homes of the brethren.

however there was obviously a transition period for the church and the ushering in of the dispensation of Grace.

I believe that this term “Dispensation of Grace” is another word used to effect disguises, smoke screens and side roads that lead away from the Truth.

Ray Smiths teachings show to me that in every generation there are those few chosen who have judgment now upon them and they will be gathered and resurrected in the first resurrection to life. The time line of God for me, is not dependent on mans time line in his history. Mans time line of history shows increasing wickedness and approaching is the day of judgment for all generations. For God we know that a day is as a thousand and visa versa.


Which it would seem did not come into effect all at one time.

Are you still speaking about GRACE? Are you saying that God’s GRACE did not come into effect all at one time? I don’t think this is accurate to say or even think this. God does not change. God’s Grace does not evolve. Man is being conformed to the image of Christ not God.

Which leads me two my second question.Did the dispensation of Grace cause God to deal with man in a different way?

God is CAUSE. Nothing CAUSES GOD. NOTHING. To build upon a man taught foundation for me, leads to doubts confusion and multiple strings attached to multiplying deceptions and illusions that appear solid true and credible to my own logic and limitations. I have discovered that my logic and limits are not Gods logic or limits. Gods thoughts ARE higher.

By this I mean did the fact that God was now allowing

God doesn’t allow…God CAUSES. Man is not a sovereign independent entity that is able to act outside of God’s Sovereignty. There is a valuable source of teaching that is offered via Ray on this topic of what God allows which if I am not mistaken is nothing but God causes everything!

man time to grow in the faith

Here the only parallel line of thinking I can find is that God is still making man into the image of His Son and that the work of God is still not completed. It is not up to man to grow in faith. This is a work of God.

thereby withholding immediate judgement

I believe that God does withhold immediate judgment for those He reserves for purging and purification in the White Throne Judgement. For me, That is why wickedness appears to be thriving in our world and it is. This is all as God has Planned.

also cause God to stop the flow or onslaught of signs and wonders including miracles.

As has been said, Gods signs and miracles are everywhere. Einstein said the following. One can live life in one of two ways only. 1 ) As if nothing is a miracle or  2) As if everything is a miracle…Quite a smart man God made Albert to be!
 
Tongues for instance was a sign to the unbeliever because men were able to speak with other identifiable languages which were not there own,yet that sign is now gone and appears left shortly after the Church was established.The last known record of God executing instant judgement was in the book of Acts when he killed Ananias and Sapphira's up until this time it was common for God to strike you down instantly,or command or allow men to kill you instantly if you sinned.This is not happening now

Are you so sure? Autopsy simply disguises the cause as being something other than God but hear what the Scriptures say : Rev 1 : 18 I am He that lives, and was dead; and behold I am alive for evermore. Amen and have the keys of Hades and of DEATH. (Who has the keys? That heart attack. That stroke or cancer?...)

 not with God or man.So Is the dispensation of grace the cause for the two way silence of heaven?

I do not believe that Heaven is silent I believe many are deaf and blind.

That is to say his silence in judgement,and miracles.

Or to say my dullness or deafness in judgement and/or my blindness or dullness to His miracles! :)

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: October 15, 2007, 05:55:46 PM by Arcturus »
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Two for One
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2007, 06:44:16 PM »


sonofone,

Quote
So Kat is this topic now fair game? as Ray has no specific teaching on this matter?

What do you mean?  If Ray doesn't teach on something, then anybody can teach it here?
This forum's purpose is not for us to teach our own understanding, but to mainly concentrate on studying and learning from what is already presented at BT.  I am aware that a good bit of teaching from others does go on here, but our focus should be on learning from the BT site and not teaching here.

Excerpt from forum http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3.0.html

THE IMPORTANT STUFF:

This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship, and secondarily to discuss and question what they learn on bible-truths.com.

If you seriously disagree with Ray, please email him directly.

If you come here to teach us, please take your teaching elsewhere.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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sonofone

  • Guest
Re: Two for One
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2007, 06:49:55 PM »

Wow Arcturus that was a total ripping apart of my post,which I actually found entertaining LOL I kept imagining you as a computer who could not compute information that has not already been programed into you. I mean you know disrespect,it is just laughable the way you dismantled every single part of it.I for now will not choose to rebuff what you have said,not because I can't because God knows I am more than capable of breaking down everything you said point by point,but rather because I fear it would yield no fruit.That is to say that it would be fruitless,it would not be or lead to a healthy, profitable discussion,only an agreement to agree to disagree. So to each his own if this is what you believe far be it from me to teach you otherwise.
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sonofone

  • Guest
Re: Two for One
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2007, 06:56:57 PM »


sonofone,

Quote
So Kat is this topic now fair game? as Ray has no specific teaching on this matter?

What do you mean?  If Ray doesn't teach on something, then anybody can teach it here?
This forum's purpose is not for us to teach our own understanding, but to mainly concentrate on studying and learning from what is already presented at BT.  I am aware that a good bit of teaching from others does go on here, but our focus should be on learning from the BT site and not teaching here.
SONOFONE: Kat that neither what I said or what I meant. I was responding to a question posed by Indiana Bob,and said that I to have thought about this but would reserve my opinion on the question in favor of what Ray may have already taught. I further stated that if Ray has not spoken to this question that I would consider it fair game for me to share my opinion,not teaching on this question,as that would not be offering anything contrary to what Ray teaches. So again before giving my OPINION,not Teaching, I asked you after seeing your post was it fair game for me to post my OPINION, on the topic. That is what I meant. Are we clear now ?
Excerpt from forum http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3.0.html

THE IMPORTANT STUFF:

This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship, and secondarily to discuss and question what they learn on bible-truths.com.

If you seriously disagree with Ray, please email him directly.

If you come here to teach us, please take your teaching elsewhere.

mercy, peace and love
Kat


See my response under your question
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Two for One
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2007, 09:50:11 PM »

The question has been brought up here on what the apostles may have thought about works they did in the name of Jesus and if they thought they would be alive at His return, actually we have scripture where Jesus responds to Peter when Peter displays his carnal nature by once again taking his eyes off of Christ while discussing what lay ahead.

Joh 21:21  Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?

Joh 21:22  Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
 
Joh 21:23  Then went this saying abroad  among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

Jesus made no promise that the apostles would be alive at His return, in fact the implication was made that they would not.

The apostles were well aware of the writings of "the men of old" and how these inspired writings survived through time into their age, would they have thought their own inspired (by His Spirit) writings could not stand the test of time and become irrelevant? They knew the ancient manuscripts from Moses on down survived and they also knew that the same God who Moses served was also their Master and quite capable of preserving His Word to suit His purpose.


2Pe 1:20  Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.
 
2Pe 1:21  For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

We also know that the Lord's chosen disciples saw and heard things from Jesus that were not written down;

Joh 21:25  And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

   
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rocky

  • Guest
Re: Two for One
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2007, 10:33:15 PM »

The question has been brought up here on what the apostles may have thought about works they did in the name of Jesus and if they thought they would be alive at His return, actually we have scripture where Jesus responds to Peter when Peter displays his carnal nature by once again taking his eyes off of Christ while discussing what lay ahead.

Joh 21:21  Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?

Joh 21:22  Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
 
Joh 21:23  Then went this saying abroad  among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

Jesus made no promise that the apostles would be alive at His return, in fact the implication was made that they would not.

The apostles were well aware of the writings of "the men of old" and how these inspired writings survived through time into their age, would they have thought their own inspired (by His Spirit) writings could not stand the test of time and become irrelevant? They knew the ancient manuscripts from Moses on down survived and they also knew that the same God who Moses served was also their Master and quite capable of preserving His Word to suit His purpose.


2Pe 1:20  Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.
 
2Pe 1:21  For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

We also know that the Lord's chosen disciples saw and heard things from Jesus that were not written down;

Joh 21:25  And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

   


I personally don't agree that the apostles didn't believe that Christ was coming soon, very soon. 

Matthew 16:27-28 (NKJV) "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. "Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

Rev 22:12  And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

The new testament is full of scripture of an imminent return of Christ.  A "short" period of time, "about to come".

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5624.msg45404.html#msg45404

Rom 16:20  And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

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