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Author Topic: Because of the Angels  (Read 3005 times)

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Gregor

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Because of the Angels
« on: October 12, 2007, 02:28:10 PM »

Greetings,

1Cor.11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

Any thoughts on what this phrase means or is refering to? Thanks in advance,
G.
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sonofone

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Re: Because of the Angels
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2007, 04:06:18 PM »

Hey G, This is a post that I would rather avoid to be honest with you,yet I always feel a sense of indebtedness to respond to a persons post when they are asking a question,because I too look for feedback when I post. As with all scriptures you have to read the entire passage in order to get the context,kind of like happening a person's conversation and only hearing the last tidbit of what they were saying thereby losing or missing there entire point. I am not suggesting that you are doing this G,just that we all find ourselves doing this from time to time when we isolate scriptures and take them out of there intended context and in my opinion end up falling into ditches,and booby traps. Having said that Isaiah 6 vs 2 reads Above it stood the seraphim's: each one had six wings,with two he COVERED his face,and with two he COVERED his feet,and with two he did fly.Ezekiel 1 vs 11 Thus were there faces and their wings were stretched upward two wings of every one were joined one to another,and two COVERED  there bodies. The angels veiled themselves with there wings in the presence of God as Paul was stating that the women or woman was to veil herself,or have a sign of authority over her head. Vs 16 seems to provide an answer to this question G where it speaks to this covering.But if a woman has long hair,it is her glory? for long hair is given to her as a covering.Vs 6 speaks to this as well saying that a woman should shave her head if she will not cover it,and if this is a shame to have her hair cut off then she should cover it or allow it to grow.There's more here G to ferret out but I'll stop here for now.Peace
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Gregor

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Re: Because of the Angels
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2007, 04:45:59 PM »

Thanks for the reply sonofone. I do understand the reference to the covering, as you mentioned, and I know it's talking about authority, but what gets me, specifically is the "because of the angels" phrase. I don't want to take a "snap-shot" out of an entire movie and make up something out of it. I'm looking for some perspectives (preferably with scriptural references) to understand what Paul is saying. It doesn't say: because of the serpent, because of man, because of demons, but rather it says angels. The word "because" generally implies the "reason" for what was just stated. What is this reason?? It's got me stumped. Are the angels mentioned here the angels that work with satan (supposedly the 1/3 that fell), or does a woman with no covering pose some temptation to the angels? Is it for their sake?
Anyone have any thoughts on this specific phrase "because of the angels?" Thanks. I'll be patient. If you don't have a scriptural reference, I'm open to hearing opinions too, as they sometimes lead to finding the scriptures.
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sonofone

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Re: Because of the Angels
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2007, 06:58:15 PM »

Thanks for the reply sonofone. I do understand the reference to the covering, as you mentioned, and I know it's talking about authority, but what gets me, specifically is the "because of the angels" phrase. I don't want to take a "snap-shot" out of an entire movie and make up something out of it. I'm looking for some perspectives (preferably with scriptural references) to understand what Paul is saying. It doesn't say: because of the serpent, because of man, because of demons, but rather it says angels. The word "because" generally implies the "reason" for what was just stated. What is this reason?? It's got me stumped. Are the angels mentioned here the angels that work with satan (supposedly the 1/3 that fell), or does a woman with no covering pose some temptation to the angels? Is it for their sake?
Anyone have any thoughts on this specific phrase "because of the angels?" Thanks. I'll be patient. If you don't have a scriptural reference, I'm open to hearing opinions too, as they sometimes lead to finding the scriptures.
I can see where you may be thinking about the sons of men that made children with the daughters of God. Some refer to this as fallen angels having copulation with women of the earth which I never understood how this could even be remotely possible.For how could they produce after our kind the bible says that we are made a little lower than the angels so are angels to be thought of as having sexual organs and lustful desires and the ability to have sex with humans? Any way I digress. I guess G, for that is all I can do at this point is refer to my original answer to this post and that is to say that all of us have to approach GOD WITH THE proper covering or humility,even in descending order,Jesus to God the Angels to God,the man and woman to Jesus and in marriage the man to the woman and the woman to the man.
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Gregor

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Re: Because of the Angels
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2007, 08:20:07 PM »

I'm not even going near the Gen.6 presumption by some that the angels would have sex with women. I guess temptation was the wrong word. Maybe I should have used the word target, seeing as Eve was deceived?? I don't know. Just trying to get some input. I'm not suggesting anything at this point, as I haven't formed any conclusions. Just wish others would give some input. Thanks again sonofone.
G.
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Gregor

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Re: Because of the Angels
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2007, 10:34:27 PM »

Greetings,
I think I've found my answer, at least in part:

Gal.1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal.4:14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

I guess "angel" is refering to anyone who would preach/teach false doctrine and deceive those who would be gulible and without proper spiritual covering. If everything in the bible, as taught by Ray,  is one big parable, then I suppose women would be a type, same as Eve, as touched upon in the thread "Types." So this leads me to my next question, what is the appropriate "covering," spiritually speaking?? Any takers?
G.
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sonofone

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Re: Because of the Angels
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2007, 03:53:21 AM »

Greetings,
I think I've found my answer, at least in part:

Gal.1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal.4:14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

I guess "angel" is refering to anyone who would preach/teach false doctrine and deceive those who would be gulible and without proper spiritual covering. If everything in the bible, as taught by Ray,  is one big parable, then I suppose women would be a type, same as Eve, as touched upon in the thread "Types." So this leads me to my next question, what is the appropriate "covering," spiritually speaking?? Any takers?
G.
I suppose that would be Jesus.Righteousness has the meaning to be clothed properly and he is our righteousness,our clothing our covering.
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rocky

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Re: Because of the Angels
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2007, 04:08:15 AM »

does this verse help?

Rev 21:17  And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.


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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Because of the Angels
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2007, 07:14:59 AM »

Matt 22 : 11 But when the king came in to view the guests, he looked intently at a man there who had on NO WEDDING GARMENT. 12 He said, "Friend, how did YOU COME IN HERE without putting on the wedding garment?  And he was speechless. 13. Then the king said to the attendants, "Tie him hand and foot, and throw him into the darkness outside; there will be weeping and grinding of teeth.

Excerpt from http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html
Rom 1:18  “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of MEN…”

That word men means humans, human kind or mankind, you could almost put the human race.
..unquote...

For me the Angels do not rejoice in ungodliness. They rejoice in the salvation of all and to that end the angels long to look....1 Peter 1:12 ...It is these very things which have NOW already been made known plainly to you by those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Into THESE things the very angels LONG TO LOOK!

Jesus did not come to set any Angels free but He came for the sons of men to liberate humanity. He will succeed and into this the angels long to look as I see it. For it is written that Rev 12 : 12 And they overcame him (the devil) by the blood of the Lamb, (the covering...the wedding garment....?) and the word of their testimony: and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore...THEREFORE, rejoice, you heavens and YOU that dwell in them....(Who dwells in the heavens. Who has come from the heavens but Christ. Who are Christs heavenly host? Angels? I believe so. Spirit beings? I think so. Do not the Angels rejoice when he who is lost is found? I believe so. )

Just what I see. This shows the difference in our being for He was made little LOWER than the Angels. Angels are not human and are an entirely different creation of our Father's Son.

Angel also means messenger and we know there is the false messenger or prophet and the true one from Christ.

The Angels of our Lord do not rejoice in iniquity but in the Truth.

Rev 16 : 15 Behold I am going to come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and who guards his clothes, so that he may not be naked and they see his shame.

Here in the above verse I believe those who will see the shame mentioned of, are the spirits of devils and false messengers.

As messengers, if the Angel of the Lord sees our nakedness they will grieve and Angels of the Devil will gloat so either way, keep the covering of Christ, His blood and His Sacrifice and His Faith in the forfront of our thoughts, trust and hearts garrisoned by His Peace.

That is how I understand for the Angels sakes for God wills that non should perish and His Messengers rejoice at His Works.

Peace to you Gregor

Arcturus :)

« Last Edit: October 13, 2007, 07:52:58 AM by Arcturus »
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sonofone

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Re: Because of the Angels
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2007, 01:29:03 PM »

That was very insightful Arcturus,just one more reason why your presence and participation is so valuable here.
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Grateful

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Re: Because of the Angels
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2007, 07:38:46 PM »

THANK you, Arcturus, for your rendering of our 'Full Clothing'  (of Christ's Righteousness over our selves) !  It definitely helps enlighten all of us regarding the word "covering".   I would venture to say that none of us here at BT Forums want to be found without Christ's Covering when He comes back!

 :D  ,

Linda

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skydreamers

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Re: Because of the Angels
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2007, 11:21:59 PM »

More on Jesus as our covering from Ray:

JESUS CHRIST IS OUR COVERING

We just read where the Apostles were on a boat on the sea of Galilee and were, "…COVERED with waves…" I see another type here. What do the "raging waves of the sea" symbolize?

Jude tells us that, "filthy dreamers," who "defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities," "brute beasts," those who have "gone the way of Can," and are after "the error of Balaam," and those who "perished in the gainsaying of core," these are "spots in your feasts of charity … RAGING WAVES OF THE SEA…" (Jude 8-13).

Say, did you notice where these "filthy dreamers, brute beasts, raging waves of the sea" are located. That’s right—IN THE CHURCH. These evil people are eating right along with the rest in the Church’s "feasts of charity." These are those who, "say they are apostles [of Christ], and are not," and those who, "say they are Jews [spiritual Jews -- converted Christians], and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan."

The disciples were literally "covered with waves" of the sea, but they were also covered with the "raging waves of the sea" spoken of in Jude, because they were, as yet, unconverted.

Actually, the Sea of Galilee is really a lake, also called, The Lake of Gennesar [et] and Lake Tiberias. Jesus Himself called Galilee a "lake" (Luke 8:22). Notice that the carnality of man symbolized in "covered with waves" (raging waves of the sea) needed salvation—"Lord save us, WE PERISH." What did Jesus become to His disciples at that very instant? Answer: "a covering shelter." Whereas they were covered by the raging waves of the sea, Jesus now became their "covering."

Jesus SAVED His disciples from the "raging waves of the sea that covered them," in the middle of the Sea [lake] of Galilee. But this was a literal physical event. They were not spiritually converted as yet, but this event pointed to just such a conversion of the spirit. Will not Jesus also become a "covering shelter" for others? If so, for whom, and for how many?

JESUS CHRIST IS THE COVERING SHELTER
OF THE WHOLE WORLD

    "And He [Jesus] is the propitiation [Greek: hilasmos, signifies "an expiation, a means whereby sin is COVERED and remitted" Strong’, p. 121] for our sins: and not for ours only, but also FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD" (John 2:2).

It may come as a surprise to realize that Jesus started His work of propitiation in a "lake"—the Lake of Galilee, and He will finish His work of propitiation in another lake, "the Lake of Fire."

In Romans 3:25 we read:

    "Whom God has set forth to be a PROPITIATION through faith in His blood to declare His righteousness for the remission [passing over of] sins that are past, through the forbearance of God."

In Heb. 9:5 this same word hilcsterion (propitiatory) is used for the COVERING LID OF THE ARK. Jesus Christ IS the ark. When the disciples were "covered by the raging waves of the sea" Jesus Christ became their "covering," and (physically) SAVED THEM!

In Hebrew, "haven" comes from cowph, and it means "to COVER; a cove (as a sheltered bay, Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary p. 32).

Jesus not only "propitiates—COVERS," He IS the Covering, "…IS the Propitiation…" (I John 2:2). Likewise, "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever," does not just "cover" IN the lake of fire: HE IS THE LAKE OF FIRE! Jesus Christ IS the Judge of the world, and the world is Judged not only BY Jesus Christ, but IN Jesus Christ.

These words and their meanings that God chooses for our understanding are not accidental coincidences. Every word of God is purified to perfectly fit its application:

    "The WORDS of the Lord are PURE WORDS: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times" (Psalm 12:6).

Do any really believe that God wants to play just one more insane cruel joke on the majority of humanity which are supposedly destined to an eternity of torture in fire, by telling us that this insane pit of torture is going to take place in a SHELTERED PLACE OF SAFETY? Is God Almighty going to torture the majority of humanity in a place He jeeringly calls: a pond, a lake, a "SHELTERED PLACE OF SAFETY?"

It is true that, "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God" (Heb. 10:31), but that does not negate the fact that there is also "safety, shelter, and covering" in God’s Divine Pond of Spiritual purifying FIRE.

http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html


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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Because of the Angels
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2007, 07:18:14 AM »

Thank you for your kind words sonofone and Linda.

This scripture adds onto this thread I believe and further came to mind regarding this interesting question that Gregor has asked.

1 Cor 6 : 3 Do you not know that the saints will judge the angels and pronounce opinion between right and wrong for them. (Perhaps discern the difference between gloating and rejoicing to discern between the angels of God and the angels of wickedness? Perhaps.) How much more then as to matters pertaining to this world and of this life? (Can we discern the difference between the self glorification of a victory won or achievements gained at the expense of others? Can we discern the difference between the joy as witnessing Gods works and victories over evil? Who's angels are our companions? Luke 10 : 20...Do not rejoice at this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are enrolled in heaven.)For me this says, don't gloat or rejoice in my works but only that which is the work of God rejoicing always in the Lord for His unblemished Faithfullness and His  resounding Victory.

John 16 : 33 ....In the world you have  tribulation and trials and distress and frustration but be of good cheer! For I have overcome the world.

Peace be to you

Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: October 14, 2007, 08:05:43 AM by Arcturus »
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Grateful

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Re: Because of the Angels
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2007, 06:15:17 PM »

does this verse help?

Rev 21:17  And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.




Hi Rocky!  I only just NOW read this posting of yours, and the sudden thought-image hit me (I don't know for sure if it makes sense, parable-wise, or not....but here's my thought, for what it's worth) that ALL of Christ's spiritual humankind are standing side-by-side with their arms linked elbow-to-elbow, forearms touching, with hands pointing upwards (as if in praise to our Father).  I think I read somewhere once that the "144,000" number is supposed to be all of spiritualized mankind.  I once heard that a cubit is equivalent to the length of a man's forearm, hence that's why I "got" this picture in my mind, of the wall of  'the Holy Jerusalem' (the New Jerusalem) being comprised of holy, purified-by-God people.  Does this make ANY sense at all to you or anyone else 'out there'??

Wondering,

Linda
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Because of the Angels
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2007, 06:29:09 PM »

Hey Rocky

 I like what Linda wrote "A purified by God - people...." His chosen elect.

Have you got any insights into what you contributed Rocky? All I know is that these measurements are symbols. I believe they are shadows of spiritual realities but what....I do not know so could not comment.

Peace be to you

Arcturus :)
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