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Deborah-Leigh:
Ray teaches that there are four things that happen with sin.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html
So there are four things that happen with sin:
1. Committed
2. Remitted
3. Repented
4. Removed
Unquote.
Are there some things that happen with forgiveness? The reason I ask this is that the following Scripture caught my eye recently.
Isa 6 : 5 Then said I, Woe is me! For I am undone and ruined, because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts! 6. Then flew one of the seraphim to me, having a live coal in his hand which he had taken with tongs from off the altar; 7. And with it he touched my mouth and said, Behold, this has touched your lips; your iniquity and guilt are taken away, and your sin is completely atoned for and forgiven.
We know that no one in the OT received the promises of the New Covenant so they will be in the LOF White Throne Judgement. Does this mean then that the number 4. removal of sin that Ray notes in his teaching on Repentance, will only happen at the LOF for those who have lived before the sacrifice of Christ? This is how I understand this and I believe the following Scripture is a witness : Heb 9:28 Even so it is that Christ, having been offered to take upon Himself and bear as a burden the sins of many once and once for all, will appear a second time, NOT TO CARRY ANY BURDEN OF SIN NOR TO DEAL WITH SIN, but to bring to FULL SALVATION ( is this the number 4 REMOVAL of sin that Ray lists? I believe it is. ) those who are eagerly, constantly and patiently waiting for and expecting Him.
Here is what I think is correct. Those in Judgement NOW, are already having their sins removed but this process is not completed until the final test that is physical death. Only the chosen and proved faithful to death can succeed into the life with Christ at their resurrection. Is the fulfilment and completion of the removal of sin endured through chastisement and correction throughout the lives in judgment NOW as on the House of God, finalized, completed and finished (It is finished) John 19 :30 by death, the way of the cross into life with the Spirit of Christ? I think it is.
Scriptures, insights and teachings by Ray that can assist and confirm or refute and correct these thoughts would be appreciated.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
rocky:
Hi Arcturus,
I found this whole chapter interesting, especially this verse (NLT) translation.
Eze 16:63 You will remember your sins and cover your mouth in silence and shame when I forgive you of all that you have done, says the Sovereign LORD."
Maybe this chapter is in line with what you are asking??
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye salve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Phi 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stumblingstone and rock of offense: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Deborah-Leigh:
Hello Rocky
These Scriptures come to mind in response to your post.
1 John 1 :7 If we are living and walking in the Light, as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses REMOVES us from all sin and guilt.
Removes is an on going process as I see it. It is not finalised until we are born again and chosen for His Kingdom right? This side of life no one is born again as we learn from the teachings and revelations given to us through Ray. So non of us are yet born of God. Non of us are free of liability to temptations failures and weakness.
1 John 3 : 9 Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin.......
We can know we have left our first love on the way to perfection in Christ but we do not reach that perfection this side of life. No one knows who is chosen and who is not, yet, we can see the fruit of the lives lived around us and discern yet not know for sure who is a chosen elect.
We are all unborn. Whether we are more the aftermath or the baby of such birth that lies ahead, we have yet to find out.
2 Peter 3 : 18 But grow in grace, (Grace. Gods divine influence on our hearts ref Ray Smith http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5417.0.html) and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To Him be glory both now and forever.
1 John 2 : 1 My little children, I write you these things so that you may not violate God's law and sin. But if anyone should sin, we have an Advocate with the Father - Jesus Christ the all righteous upright, just, who conforms to the Father's will in every purpose, thought, and action.
Well that makes sense. HE ~ Jesus Christ IS the only born again Son of God at this time. Did the born again life of Christ come through His Resurrection to Life with the Father? Is this why He is always the First Son of God and the Preeminent One. I believe so. HIS ~ Jesus Christs brethren will be resurrected to life in HIM. HE was resurrected to life in the FATHER and others will be resurrected to life in the SON and become sons and daughters of the Son and heirs with the Son of the Father. Like a grandchildren right? Who can have equality and sameness of Christ? He is the seed that fell and died and others are His off spring being formed into His Image right? I think so? Any Scriptures, teachings from Ray to witness or refute this. It feels like I am taking baby steps :)...I know, I know, I am not born again ;D this could be womb wobble going on :D
The world is still in birth pangs and the chosen are not yet revealed, manifested or born yet.Ask any mother how difficult life gets in the last week of pregnancy! No wonder sin abounds. I wait for GRACE to abound much more. I do not claim that I am chosen. I might be the aftermath but hope not....
Luke 21 : 36 Keep awake then and watch at all times, be discreet, attentive and ready, praying that you may have the full strength and ability and be accounted worthy to escape all these things that will take place, and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man.
Scriptures, insights and teachings by Ray that can witness, assist and confirm or adjust, correct or refute, these thoughts would be appreciated.
Thank you for your contribution Rocky.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
rocky:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
jER:
To Add:
Wherefore, as by one man, sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression,
who is the figure of him that was to come. (Romans 5:12, 14)
For as in Adam all die…
The flesh cannot be converted; it must be destroyed and made new.
Therefore, the "Old man" of sin must be buried, for they that are flesh can not please God.
...even so, in Christ shall all be made alive. (I Corinthians 15:22)
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men… to condemnation… (Romans 5:18a)
…even so, by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (Romans. 5:18b)
What happens to one; happens to all. First, there is a physical death, then a spiritual (second) death (now, or at the White Throne Judgment)
which results in a "New Creation in Christ."
It is indeed, "Finished", and completed in/by Him.
- jER
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