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Author Topic: Faith without works is Dead  (Read 10481 times)

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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2007, 11:39:01 AM »

Quote
And isn't there a danger in sitting in the judgement seat to say the blanket statement that "all churches teach all wrong"?


I didn't say "all wrong," I said 99.99% wrong, which they are (if you dig).

Ray has received many emails from people who sacrificed for many years giving to their church, and when they fell on hard times and asked for help, they were turned away (I know there have been exceptions, but not many).

There is NOTHING redeeming about Babylon's teachings, nothing. So why not "Come out of her, my people" unless you are not one of the "my people" and prefer the company of the blinded?

But like I said, if you stand up for the truth you will be put out anyway. It's just a matter of time.

Dennis
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Kat

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2007, 12:39:37 PM »


Here are a few emails concerning the church.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,102.0.html --------

When the new testament talks about the saints or the church is that referring to the called or the chosen?

Regards
Daryn

Dear Daryn:

The answer is BOTH.  God calls "His people"--His chosen elect saints, out of Babylon, which is the church of God turned apostate. But when we come out of Babylon, we are still saints and we are still member of the The Church of Jesus Christ, The Church of the Living God. As such we assemble ourselves together with believers in light, not the apostate church of darkness. We are to have no fellowship with them (II John 10, II Cor. 6:14-18, Rev. 8:4, I Cor. 5:9-13, Eph. 5:6-11, etc.).

God be with you,

http://bible-truths.com/email9.htm#yoked --------------------

However, here is a Scripture that tells us what to do when we are entangled with those who do not believe the Truths of God:

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with UNBELIEVERS [those who do not believe the Truths of God]: for what fellowship has righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion has light with darkness?  And what concord has Christ with Belial? or what part has he that believes with an infidel. And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? [or 'idols of the heart'--Ezek. 14:4, which are FALSE doctrines and FALSE teachings] for you are the temple of the living God; as God has said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.  Wherefore COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM, AND BE YOU SEPARATE, says the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, and will be a Father unto you, and you shall be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty" (II Cor. 5:14-18).

There is your Scriptural reason for not assembling with them.

God be with you,

Ray

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3797.0.html ------

  Sorry, but I know of no churches or denominations of men anywhere on earth who teach these truths.
    Remember, Jesus said were are like "salt" to the earth around us, which indicates that we are few and far between, unlike the lumpy gravy of Christendom.
    God be with you,
    Ray

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1304.0.html ------

People ask me about "where to go to church" almost on a daily basis. They know that their church and all other churches that they know of, do not teach the truth (worse: they teach lies and heresy).  And so they think that maybe I know of a church a few blocks from where their from or a few miles from their home that does teach all of the truths of God.  Sorry, there is not such thing that I am aware of.
 
If there were churches scattered through BABYLON THE GREAT WHORE, then there would be no need for God to admonish those whom He is choosing, to "COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE" (Rev. 18:4).  Are we to just come out of her spiritually, but remain good social friends with them on a weekly basis?
 
Church is not now and never was, a physical building to congregate in to worship God.  Could all the hundreds of thousands of Israelites congregate inside the tiny little tabernacle in the wilderness?  Could ALL JUDEA congregate in the tiny Temple in Jeruslem every sabbath?  The synagogues became corrupted and the churches today are corrupted. So where do you want to go?  If you want fellowship why not foin a social club and keep the false religion out of your fellowship.
 
Jesus taught us that we are to worship God in spirit and in truth, not in this mountain or in Jerusalem, or in a building, or another other "place" that is corrupted.  I can't tell people what to do. If "christian fellowship" means more to them than "godly worship," then I guess they just  have to keep looking.
 
Being a follower of Jesus Christ was never designed to be a "feel good religion" as many christian churches promise if you join their particular tents on living a worldly life for Jesus.  I trully never miss, "CHURCH"!  I "go to church" every time I open my Bible."

God be with you,
Ray
 
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Matt

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2007, 01:43:15 PM »

Since I am not yet a worthy scholar (I will be one day ;D), I will just go back to the basics.  Jesus did not "go to church" to learn anything.  He went to the temple to let them know that what they were doing was wrong.  He did not compromise and follow them, they always followed Him.   He spent most of His time with God alone in prayer.   

I think I am starting to understand a bit more now.  Those of you who have already left the "church" are correct, but we who have not, still have those human soul ties.  We combat the same flesh that we ALL fight everyday.  The same flesh that tugs when we are cut off in traffic, or meet an annoying person today, etc.......... we are all the same.  I think rejection is what keeps many captive, especially since it would come from those we love dearly and consider family.

I still attend a church here in Japan, mainly because my wife is not open to many truths.  I spend my time during the sermon pulling up scriptures to show my wife later that day.  She can not refute them, but at the same time, she does not yet understand them.  I am no longer indoctrinated by this church.  However, I have introduced some teachings and scriptures that have not been rejected.  The pastor has actually taken a bold step and announced that many of today's teachings come straight from the Roman and Greek mindset (a step he took not based off of anything I told him).  He plans on teaching everyone the truth about Easter, Christmas, the sacraments etc.  I pray for this guy because he is on to something.  He believes in investing in people, not buildings.  He worships in Spirit and truth.  He lives off of his military retirement.  Does he still believe in hell, yes.  Should I just quit and give up on him when he is so close.  It may take years for him, but he continues to move closer and closer to the truth, I believe it scares him. 

I will never go back to the lies, but if I have an opportunity, shouldn't I try and teach and warn?  Anyway, I just wanted to share this with everyone. 

Matt
« Last Edit: October 26, 2007, 01:48:32 PM by Matthew »
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javajoe

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2007, 02:07:09 PM »

Matthew,

I would tend to agree with you.  I think some of us may have a calling to stay in "Baylon" to be leaven.  But we need to accept the fact that Babylon may reject us and kick us out on our heals.  That's my opinion, anyway.  I'd like to get opinions from the older members of this forum.  What do you all think?

ciao,

JavaJoe
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Rene

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2007, 03:05:12 PM »


Here are a few emails concerning the church.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1304.0.html ------

People ask me about "where to go to church" almost on a daily basis. They know that their church and all other churches that they know of, do not teach the truth (worse: they teach lies and heresy).  And so they think that maybe I know of a church a few blocks from where their from or a few miles from their home that does teach all of the truths of God.  Sorry, there is not such thing that I am aware of.
 
Ray
 


Thanks Kathy for, once again, bringing forth the email responses from Ray on certain subjects.

The first email I sent to Ray after "stumbling" upon the BT website over two years ago, was, "Did he know of any churches in my area that taught what he was teaching?"  His response, of course, was no, and he added that he no longer belonged to any organized church or denomination.  He belonged to the Body of Christ, the Church of the Living God, which was a spiritual church.

Through study and prayer, it all began to make sense to me.  The command to "Come out of her my people" was the answer to a prayer I didn't even no I was asking.  By the grace of God, I quickly came to understand the significance of this command.  It was a liberating experience.

Rene'
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indianabob

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Re: Faith without works is Dead, Indy Bob
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2007, 04:06:09 PM »

Gregor and folks,

You have come upon a really tough subject and I respect your concerns.

I don't have an answer and am just thinking about all that I have just read from other members.
You may recall that I take turns leading a Bible study in the small group that I attend.
So far they have not responded to anything I have shared.  They will pay attention, answer the questions and say thank you for the great study, but the topic doesn't come up again.  Their interest is limited to doing their duty by attending services, singing hymns of praise and praying for the sick.  I'm not judging, but it seems like routine.

I have been tempted to invite myself over to their homes to share tea and cookies in the evening and discuss these things but I don't want to appear that I am "teaching with authority" in my own mind.  The thing is that these folks invited me to attend with them, they know that I don't observe pagan holidays as they do for Christmas and Halloween, but they don't have enough members to be choosy.  It's a tough call and I'm looking for a polite way out.  I thought I could help with my better knowledge, but it comes across as a superior attitude.  I thought it was just my attitude, but even that doesn't explain the rut they are in.  They don't have Bible knowledge, they have traditions, some of which may be correct (rejecting the trinity), but that doesn't change the fact that it is tradition based.

Regarding the gift of support that your family needed and sincerely appreciates. Our local Lions Club would have done the same for you.  They have about $4,000.00 a year that they distribute to local needy people.  All you have to do is ask one of the members and the club checks the facts, votes on the amount and writes a check. They don't do it for religious reasons, they do it because they are Lions.

Our local Township Trustee has available about $10,000.00 that can be given or loaned to needy in the Township population of about 3,000.  They request that it be repaid if possible.  There are many other charitable organizations that are not religious and ask for nothing in return.  Some organizations give in order to receive later.  My point here is that the gift you received does not demonstrate that the giver was of God.  It is just as likely that the members had a desire to help regardless of their personal faith or of God's inspiration.  Lots of nice people were raised by their parents to be gracious and it is part of their make up or culture regardless of Bible knowledge or Christian faith.

Please keep in mind that people usually don't reject you until they are afraid of you.  They may fear you because of concern for their children.  That you or your children may lead their children into error and that their children may leave the family church.  They may fear you, once they know all that you believe, out of concern for the "immortal souls" of their children or themselves.  You won't know until you confront them.

I realize that it is hard to confront nice people with information that confuses and threatens them.  Let's face it, the things we believe are a threat to peace and safety of the average church member.  If we are right, then their spouses or parents or close friends are wrong.  Who can tolerate that revelation?  Many of us here on the forum are having difficulty with it in our own relationships.

When God calls us out, it is all the way out.  Yet God is very patient and knows our frame and our limitations.  There is no hurry for you to leave as far as I understand God's character.  However, as in most situations of this type the longer you delay the more it will hurt when you finally take definite steps to leave.

You should of course move deliberately and with good counsel not rushing into situations that you have not prayed and meditated upon.  However, in my opinion, you will eventually have to devise a plan to separate yourself and then begin to carry it out.  Take all the time you need to make the changes, but don't let financial need guide your conduct.  There should be many other places to apply for financial aid and God will help you in those areas just as much or more than He would through church organizations that require your participation in their rituals.

Please forgive the brevity of my comments as I wrote this hurriedly.

Much love and BIG hugs, Bob
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Chris R

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2007, 05:14:46 PM »

Greetings,

." As far as this issue with the many vs. the few, John 14:2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. Throughout the gospels it talks of how "many" Jews heard and believed. It talks how "many" in the crowds believed after hearing Jesus speak. Over and over again it says this. Or do we just ignore those scriptures? Perhaps only "few" will be the elect, but isn't it God who does the electing?

Hi Greg,

Sure i understand what your trying to say, It's a honest question.

But are you seriously saying that God has a HOUSE?....and inside of this HOUSE there are many more houses?

Obviously this is a metaphor for a dwelling, And where will we dwell, ALL of us..?

 1Cr 15:28  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

As for those who believed, two verses come to mind...

James 2:9 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.  From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Jhn 6:63-66 

So yes, Many are called, but few are chosen.

As for the poor, Christ left us with these words.... Mar 14:7  For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.

Yes we have always had poverty and poor, those less fortunate than ourselves, We also have internet, TV, electric, heat, cars, food, a place to live, And there are millions with much less.

We all get in a tight spot, and i understand we all can use a helping hand, All I'm saying is there is a cost involved, and if its a difference between starving or adhering to doctrines of hells fire, and torture to billions of souls....its gonna be a long winter, going back and forth to the soup kitchen....but that's just me.

You wanted a opinion...and that's what i have given.

Peace

Chris R




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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2007, 03:37:34 AM »

Gregor

If you think I was assuming anything and more particularly assuming that YOU bow to heresy and blasphemy, I was not and neither did I accuse or judge you.

I believe that it is not pompous or false assumption to point out that Babylon bows to heresy and blasphemy. This fact is very well carried forward through the teachings and revelations we have through Ray. But how many quote Ray here on this Forum? Few! Those who do bring forward Ray's revelations assist discernment and recognition and acquaintance with the Truth.

It is refutation of arguments and theories and reasonings and every proud and lofty thing that sets itself up against the true knowledge of God that contrasts Babylons stupid foolish controversies, genealogies and dissensions and wrangling divisions perversions and corruptions.

From http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm quoting Ray:

From "Therefore speak I to them in parables, because they seeing, see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah… for this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should BE CONVERTED, AND I SHOULD HEAL [SAVE] THEM" (Verses 13-15).
Wow! Jesus didn’t want them to understand and He didn’t want to convert them and He didn’t want to save them. How could Isaiah’s prophecy be true if Jesus were to contradict it by teaching them plainly so that they could understand and repent? Now, that’s what Jesus said, and that’s what Isaiah said, but there’s a problem:
"But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah said, Lord, who has believed our report?" (Rom. 10:16).
Yes, who? Have you believed this report I have just given you? It is almost frightening how few truly believe God’s Scriptural reports. Hence, precious few believe and understand the Scriptures, and fewer yet, obey them.



Matt your refutation of the errors being taught to your wife I see as a kind of spiritual training which for me can only be spiritually profitable as you exercise your discernment and practise the authority of the Word of God.  No one can make anyone accept Christ. After all, it is God Almighty that DRAGS us to His Son. What can puny man do except it be given to him to refute, exhort and encourage. So I encourage you to carry on in good spirit and spiritual training.

·   1 Cor 14 : 3 But the one who prophesies, who interprets the Divine Will and purpose in inspired preaching and teaching
(what is the Divine Will. How does the Plan of God unfold.  Both questions are thoroughly covered by Ray Smiths teachings )speaks to men for their up building and constructive spiritual progress and encouragement and consolation.

Indianabob what stood out for me in your post is quote : Let's face it, the things we believe are a threat to peace and safety of the average church member.  If we are right, then their spouses or parents or close friends are wrong.  Who can tolerate that revelation?  Many of us here on the forum are having difficulty with it in our own relationships.

The fierce hooves of bestial Babylon's final kick hurt me the most. The definitive rejection with no going back was terrifying. Not even after it had happened did I accept it was the plan of God for me to draw me out. It hurt deeply. My comfort and healing I certainly received here afterwards and I believe this too is what terrifies some about coming out of Babylon because it is painful, lonely and no walk in the rose garden!

Was it worth being dragged by God to His Son. You bet it is and this is the wonderful part that once set free you are fee of the torment, rejection and suffering and begin to see that it is them who are suffering, under illusion and in pain. Then the temptation to pride comes and that has to be overcome because all have fallen short of the Glory. We do not have to reject anyone or judge anyone any longer because freedom is free from legal restraints, fear and attachments to comparisons and innuendo.   

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: October 27, 2007, 04:49:23 AM by Arcturus »
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rjsurfs

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2007, 04:13:31 AM »

Arcturus said:
Quote
But how many quote Ray here on this Forum? Few!

AMEN !!!

I have searched this morning (but could not find) a quote from either Ray or someone who had been around for awhile... that recommended every paper of Ray's be read and studied at least three times through to begin to get an understanding.  When you read the emails from Ray section you see him asked those he is replying to over and over... "Did you actually read my paper?"

This topic is thoroughly covered in the Lake of Fire Series.  If you don't believe it why would anyone post their opposing views here?  If you haven't even read it, why would you be posting here?  If you've read it and oppose it, bring it up to Ray or don't post.  Why?  Because this is a place for people of like-mind.

If you haven't read Ray's papers thoroughly... how do you even know you are of like-mind?

From the forum rules:
Quote
This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship, and secondarily to discuss and question what they learn on bible-truths.com.

If you seriously disagree with Ray, please email him directly.

If you come here to teach us, please take your teaching elsewhere.

THIS FORUM IS NOT TO BE USED TO DEBATE RELIGIOUS TOPICS

I don't mean to pick on this particular thread alone... I agree with Arcturus:
Quote
It is refutation of arguments and theories and reasonings and every proud and lofty thing that sets itself up against the true knowledge of God that contrasts Babylons stupid foolish controversies, genealogies and dissensions and wrangling divisions perversions and corruptions.

This is not a place for conjecture, what-if, or conspiracy theories... again not meaing to point my finger at this thread alone.

Bobby
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2007, 04:49:18 AM »

Jer 7:30  For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.
 
Jer 7:31  And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.


I have found it to be an interesting phenomena that people can hear the Word of God and appear to receive the real Gospel that proclaims the Love He has for ALL humanity and the ultimate triumph of Christ in saving His creation yet feel compelled to defend the same church(es) that teaches Christ and the Father are weak willed, callous, vindictive, cruel, torturous and hypocritical.

How many would defend any institution that spead that same kind of misinformation about one of their loved ones (wife, husband, child, parent, etc.)? Would they be so tolerant?


The following are Christ's Words, not Ray's or mine;

Mat 15:7  Ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
 
Mat 15:8  This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoreth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
 
Mat 15:9  But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mar 7:8  For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
 
Mar 7:9  And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Paul's (through Christ's Spirit) words, not Ray's or mine;

Gal 1:9  As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
 
Gal 1:10  For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant ofChrist.

Let us not concern ourselves with what others think of us whether it be in the churches, in this world or in this Forum, seek the Wisdom that only God can provide and the approval of the only One who truly matters, if we do this everything else will be taken care of.

I know from personal experience this is much easier said than done, I have stumbled in this regard more than a few times.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe




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hillsbororiver

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2007, 04:52:07 AM »

Arcturus said:
Quote
But how many quote Ray here on this Forum? Few!

AMEN !!!

I have searched this morning (but could not find) a quote from either Ray or someone who had been around for awhile... that recommended every paper of Ray's be read and studied at least three times through to begin to get an understanding.  When you read the emails from Ray section you see him asked those he is replying to over and over... "Did you actually read my paper?"

This topic is thoroughly covered in the Lake of Fire Series.  If you don't believe it why would anyone post their opposing views here?  If you haven't even read it, why would you be posting here?  If you've read it and oppose it, bring it up to Ray or don't post.  Why?  Because this is a place for people of like-mind.

If you haven't read Ray's papers thoroughly... how do you even know you are of like-mind?

From the forum rules:
Quote
This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship, and secondarily to discuss and question what they learn on bible-truths.com.

If you seriously disagree with Ray, please email him directly.

If you come here to teach us, please take your teaching elsewhere.

THIS FORUM IS NOT TO BE USED TO DEBATE RELIGIOUS TOPICS

I don't mean to pick on this particular thread alone... I agree with Arcturus:
Quote
It is refutation of arguments and theories and reasonings and every proud and lofty thing that sets itself up against the true knowledge of God that contrasts Babylons stupid foolish controversies, genealogies and dissensions and wrangling divisions perversions and corruptions.

This is not a place for conjecture, what-if, or conspiracy theories... again not meaing to point my finger at this thread alone.

Bobby


Excellent!

Very well stated Bobby (and by extension Arcturus).

Thank you,

Joe
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Beloved

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2007, 05:49:55 AM »

Hi greg

This is your quote but I broke it into readable paragraphs…because that is the way I think.

Issue One
It seems to me that differences in doctrine are not always reason enough to completely disown other believers. In fact, I would think this might just bring judgement on me.

Is it wrong to agree to disagree on the differences in interpretation so long as they don't take away from Christ's redemptive act of salvation?

It seems with Christianity that there are differences in doctrine as extreme as the east is from the west - from preterism, presentism, futurism, universalism, calvanism, armenianism, etc. etc. "isms."

Issue Two
I ask all this because recently my family has fallen on extremely hard times financially and if not for the generosity of our church, we would be literally starving. We were blessed (I see it as a blessing from God) with $500 worth of grocery vouchers from this church.

I don't know if anyone here, or even Ray for that matter, would be willing to help us in this practical "work" of love. Does this forum support one another in a practical manner, other than with words?

If I "come out" of Babylon, as Ray teaches, where does that leave me in a practical, everyday sense of the word? How are we here at BT truly showing our faith by our works? I don't ask this in a condemning manner, but in sincerity of heart.

If we are to "come out" of Babylon, how are we taking care of one another practically? In all truth, I would be left alone here with my family and no support.

God provided, perhaps he just used the devil to foot the bill?? I say that rather loosely, as I don't view differences in doctrine equating to complete heresy. The heart of the people (church) was/is loving enought to reach out to me and my family in a real, practical way in our time of need.

For that I'm grateful to God. Is there anything like this here at the BT forum, a fund to help each other in time of need?
G.


I want to address the first issue first because it is the more important of the two. I will address the second issue later.

I just want to remind you that is was Jesus Himself who said


Mat 16: upon this rock I will build MY CHURCH.

(Joh 16:7 KJVR) Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

That means when Christ dwells with you , you become a lively stone that is built on Him the Rock. You are a member of His Body. We were explicity told to Follow HIM.

When Peter died and no longer fed the early flock , we were not left alone …..we were left with the abiding presence of the Lord Jesus who is the Shepard and Overseer of your soul who leads protects and feeds those who follow His Voice.

Feeding on the Living Bread of Christ we who eat never hunger, we do not need priestly mediators to parsel out crumbs

It is Christ the Servant who washes our feet daily and  cleanses away the worldly defilement on our walk in this world. We do not need councils or creeds or pronouncement of men to shed light on our paths…Jesus is our only Light

We have Christ and He is sufficient for all things needful for the life of His people. He is our Pattern every other system or standard that has come from man corrupts His own.
 
The history of mankind is replete with stories of this corruption. Shorlty after Jerusalem fell the priest and levitical system was replaced by presbster and bishops the brethren became known as the “Laity”. 

The brethren relinquished their responsibilities and previlidges  to these wolves in sheep clothing that all the writers of the gospel warned us about. Christ tells quite specifically that He hates these Nicolations.

From the Rome came Catholicism of Corruption which through the ages was challenged by brave individual and eventually it did lead to reformation and its ultimate division into 2000 or more denominations and this even continues today….and ….. the sheep are still cooped up in these crystal cathedrals listening to men as they play toward our carnality.

We like being taught by them because it is easier that dividing the word for ourselves, we like the entertainment they call worship especially today because it is so worldly. We like paying other subordinate individuals to go out and do the dirty work in the world so we can stay home safe and feel satisfied that we ourselves have done good. We like giving because we like getting back in superabundance.

This is why we leave Babylon…to reclaim our life with Christ.

He sent his disciples out into the world in groups of two…it is the same today, each one of us who has the spirit within has this second witness.

Yes it may at first appear lonely in the physical
(Phi 4:19 KJVR)  But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

(Phi 4:20 KJVR)  Now unto God and our Father be glory forever and ever. Amen.

(Phi 4:21 KJVR)  Salute every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren which are with me greet you
.

I will address the second issue later and in the meantime anyone else can if they chose to do so.

Beloved
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dessa

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #32 on: October 27, 2007, 05:58:10 AM »

Joe, thank you for these words.

Quote
Let us not concern ourselves with what others think of us whether it be in the churches, in this world or in this Forum, seek the Wisdom that only God can provide and the approval of the only One who truly matters, if we do this everything else will be taken care of.

Shalom,
dessa
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musicman

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2007, 07:40:21 AM »

I agree Bradigans and Chris.

I believe one should have an even stronger warning because it is the synagogue of satan.  Yes God is causing all but be aware of the fact that it is not good encouragement to encourage one another to stay in Bablyon or go back to Egypt.  God is a jealous God. 

The worship of a god that is going to burn people in hell throughout infinity is the worship of the god of this world.  Another Jesus, not the God of the bible.

One is still in the flesh and commit sins daily, but one should not encourage their brothers that it is ok to continue in sin.  One should fight the good fight daily and continue to fill up on the word so as to be transformed from the inside out. 

No harm in past stumbles focus on the future to clean out the inside of the cup and have Christ in you.
CIY

CIY, i agree completely.

Earlier i was having a hard time because some here seem to be telling me that those who teach this Christ who will torture people forever are my 'brothers and sisters' yet Christ called those who believe on Him of the devil. How can those that believe on the devil and preach this discusting pagan doctrine be my brothers and sisters? I still struggle with this as times, but i think it see it more clearly now.

Satan is very decietful, subtle as genesis tells us! I sitll have a hard time calling those who preach this Christ my brothers and sisters, it doesn't sit well with the spirit inside me, perhaps i need more prayer, this i will always do Lord willing.

As ray has written, i do believe that the christian church of today, babylon, is where the throne of satan resides.

Brothers and sisters in there? Only God knows who is His, but since i do not know who among them is my brother and sister, i am very weary and careful to call them that.

God bless all and if i am misguided, someone please correct me! I'm always wanting to listen and learn more.

With love,

Alex

Those that teach wicked doctrines cannot be considered our brothers and sisters.  We are told not to fellowship with non-believers.  Therefore, they cannot be considered our brothers and sisters.  I recall one particular e-mail where Ray's closing remarks to a heretic was, "We will be brothers, but we are not brothers yet".
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Bradigans

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #34 on: October 27, 2007, 04:59:23 PM »

Greetings,

Proverbs 18:13
He who answers a matter before he hears it, It is folly and shame to him.

I have no problem with calling the outright selling of the gospel (shamelessly done on tv) and turning it into a carnal "for profit, name it and claim it" doctrine that doesn't include suffering or persecution for His name's sake as contrary to scripture. I have no problem "coming out of her." It's true that people can twist the scriptures to say what they want it to be for their own pleasures, rather than shaping their hearts to the scriptures for what they actually mean. But to each is given a measure of understanding and by what they do with it is how they will be judged, not by the measure itself - and that too will be on an individual basis, not collectively, like God will say, "oh, you went to such n such a church, sorry you're going to the LOF." That's not what our salvation is based on. As I mentioned earlier, even those at the "church" in Corinth were mislead in their doctrine, yet Paul still called called them "beloved brethren." As far as this issue with the many vs. the few, John 14:2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. Throughout the gospels it talks of how "many" Jews heard and believed. It talks how "many" in the crowds believed after hearing Jesus speak. Over and over again it says this. Or do we just ignore those scriptures? Perhaps only "few" will be the elect, but isn't it God who does the electing?
And isn't there a danger in sitting in the judgement seat to say the blanket statement that "all churches teach all wrong"?  and thereby have nothing to do with them? Mt. 25:14-46 explains what I just said.
So let's get to the heart of this topic. If I go on-line here, and ask for help in the prayer request section, would there be even one person who would get out their pocketbook and send us financial help? Or more likely would there just be a lot of "I'll pray for you" responses? I don't know, retorical question, perhaps I should have asked prior to receiving help here in my hometown. It was a real answer to our prayer, so I just don't know how some could speak evil of something good God did for my family. In any case, I'm not here to cause division, but simpley ask then, where does one turn to for help? Don't say trust in God 100% because I did, and my prayer was heard, and answered through the hearts of people who love Him and through very real, practical means. These are the sheep mentioned in Mt.25:14-46. As in James 2:
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[d] works, and I will show you my faith by my[e] works. 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[d] works, and I will show you my faith by my[e] works.
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Proverbs 27:2 Let another man praise you, and not your own mouth; A stranger, and not your own lips.

Are they (the church in reference here) standing for THE WORD (THE TRUTH). You can't expect to receive or eat at Satan's table and God's too.2 Corinthians 6:17 - Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing (there's a curse on everything they got, because it's not based on truth); and I will receive you.Matthew 6:24 - No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. If someone's not standing for THE TRUTH (a pimp) you're not suppose to accept anything from them. God is jealous, if you're His child.   
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Bradigans

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #35 on: October 27, 2007, 05:02:40 PM »


The irony Alex is once WE have left Babylon and no longer bow to their false teachings and blasphemous ideologies. they to then practise their piety and holier than thou pomp and ceremony by not only teaching others to separate from US but they slander and would kill if they could, anyone who believes God and His Word. It is then that Babylonians too are lead to become very weary and careful to call US brothers and sisters! ;D I speak from experience  ;D

Peace be to you

Arcturus :)

I don't bow to their ideologies. I certainly wouldn't raise one finger against anyone here, let alone kill. Very pompous and false assumptions. I know many a believer who give you the shirt off their backs to help someone, not to be seen by man, but out of obedience to the word of God.

Depending on what their stance is as far as THE WORD would determine whether or not i would receive or not receive that shirt. I was just in that circumstance recently. I had a dire need. God knows, but I knew I was being tempted by Satan. I would rather be out on the street before I bow to Satan by receiving something from him...
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Robin

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2007, 06:55:07 PM »

I can only relate to things through my experience so I'll share mine on this matter.

Right before God called me out of the church I was standing with the Pastor and a friend from church. I don't remember why I was there, but we were all alone in the chapel. Suddenly I had a vision of the cross on the edge of a cliff.  In my mind I knew that walking off the edge of that cliff meant that I would go the way that God chose for me and it was a very hard way to go. Walking over the edge of that cliff meant relinquishing all rights to my self and my life and my loved ones. I knew that the trials would be great. There really wasn't a choice for me. I had to take the way that took me over the edge of the cliff. It was more like a command and not a choice.

The woman friend standing next to me ended up on the floor in a fetal position shaking and crying in fear. I'm not sure what she experienced, but I know God showed her the same road and it scared her to death. Later she received a similar vision. Hers was a road on a street with enemies in the buildings on each side of the road. She knew she was supposed to take that road. She went and talked to her pastor about it and he told her she didn't need to take that road. He said every Christian would take that road sooner or later. She listened to the Pastor instead of God and stayed in her comfort zone. I know this was all of God and this is what was ordained for both of us. I had no choice, but to take that narrow road. She had no choice, but to shrink back in fear. Her Pastor told her son I was one of those women that was always learning, but would never come to the full knowledge of the truth. We parted ways after that.

A few months later I opened a book I had to a page that had these scriptures.

Revelation 18:4
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Numbers 19:13
Whosoever toucheth the dead body of any man that is dead, and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from Israel: because the water of separation was not sprinkled upon him, he shall be unclean; his uncleanness is yet upon him.

I knew that God was commanding me to come out of the church.

My initial feelings were fear. I had a lot coming against me.
This truth that I was learning was falling out of the sky, lol. I knew it was from God, but at the same time I was just a damaged, insignificant person. I could not believe that God was choose me to teach me these truths when everyone else believed the church teachings. I was feeling that I must have made it all up. I couldn't prove hell wrong at the time so I was also so afraid of going to hell for believing what I believe against the church. How could the huge church be wrong and I be right. I was the sinner after all. They were the good guys.

I picked out a movie by it's title and watched it and God used the movie to show me clearly the hypocrisy of the church and I was able to listen to his command and leave the church. That was around 15 years ago and I haven't been back.

I was working in a catering business at the time and living in a little apartment above the business. It had no windows and it was like a prison. The owner of the business lost the business due to his alcoholism and I was left without a job and soon to be without a home. I could not find a job to save my life. My 2 teenagers lived at home with me and we had no food for 6 months. We ate beans, rice, and Top Raman. I was so depressed I couldn't even get up off the floor. None of us could find a job.

It was in God's plan for us to go hungry at that time. It was a part of the fiery judgment. At the end of the 6 months I felt that God was starting to move. It was dark and I asked, Where are we going now? I heard the scripture in my mind that said, Where I go you cannot follow. Suddenly I realized that Christ died for just me. I was on the floor crying and had another vision. It was Christ on the cross. In the distance I could see the dark cloud coming toward me. I grabbed onto Christ's leg and asked him to cover me with his blood so I would be safe. It was the passover.

I walked though that red sea and it closed behind me. During the next 10 years I sat in that desert without one word from God. I did not learn one other truth. My whole being cried out for God and my faith was tested like never before. I feared that I was left in the desert to die or maybe the pastor was right when he told me my beliefs would only lead to despair. Maybe they were right and I made it all up. I held onto my faith by a thread. In total despair I prayed that if God had a teacher anywhere in this world that he would lead me to him. If there were any other believers in this world could I please find them? I was fainting from the desert heat.

2 weeks later I found bible-truths. I found Ray. I found you. I was looking for a grief poem for a friend on another forum and it led me here. I wept with gratitude and laughed with joy. Ray's teaching confirmed that I wasn't crazy. I wasn't going to hell. He finally gave me the proof I needed to prove hell to be scripturally false. I wasn't alone. There was a remnant. I wasn't abandoned by God. It was all part of the plan. He did not lead me into the desert to die. I weep in gratitude again as I write this.

Isaiah 26:7-9
 7The way of the just is uprightness: thou, most upright, dost weigh the path of the just.

 8Yea, in the way of thy judgments, O LORD, have we waited for thee; the desire of our soul is to thy name, and to the remembrance of thee.

 9With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.


Matthew 7:13-15
 13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2007, 07:02:55 PM by M.G. »
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Beloved

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #37 on: October 27, 2007, 08:59:12 PM »

I wanted to get back with you on this topic. Regarding your question in remaining in your church, my last post was not meant to be judgmental or pedantic, I wanted to emphasize what we should be moving to …….rather than dwell on where we are or where we were. 

I agree this is an individual decision. Never the less the most important and crucial relationship is with Christ. Like the Song of Solomon shows us this is an individual and not a shared event.
I think many have adequately expounded BT teachings on this subject.

I would also comment on your reply
I don't bow to their ideologies. I certainly wouldn't raise one finger against anyone here, let alone kill. Very pompous and false assumptions.
I think that the killing of us that Arturus was referring to and that the scriptures refer to can be spirital and not always physical...i.e. they call a heretic and then condemn us to burn in hell for ever. 

Regarding your financial needs being met by your church. I am sensing that you are upset about  received this blessing. I do not agree that receiving this was wrong, if God can use an a@@ in the old testament to warn someone then he can use a Babylonian to meet your needs. Like many others have said, this may also be a test/trial to see if the spiritual is more important to you than the carnal.

Many of us have been taken to that dark scary place that you find yourself in right now. It was not too long ago that I was literarily taken down to $100.00 and my lease was up and I had no place to live and no job. I had been looking work for close to two years.

It was only then that I realized that I had to lay every thing on the altar and trust in God TOTALLY….which can be a very hard thing to do.

By the way,  out of the blue, a good Babylonian friend  gave me $200 for my birthday and I was able to attend my first BT conference in Nashville. What was weird is that she said that God told her it would be a honor for her to give this to me.

What I learned was that I needed to.... accept God’s decision…… even if it was not what ...I wanted.  Remember Peter and James were both put in Herod’s prison. Peter walked out but James was slain. 

Even John the Baptist who knew the Messiah would set the captive free…asked Jesus if he was the one?  Jesus answered him and said “Blessed is he who is not offended in Me” John too was set free but not the way he expected.

I also agree with Chris R / Craig and others in that the BT forum is a place of discussion…many people sign on here, a few stay (active or hidden)  and many more leave, not all are brethren. 

Of the people that I have met with in person at the various conferences that I have attended…. there are quite a few that I feel spiritually related to and I would give them any thing that I had if they had a need and God prompted me to do this in His will.

You are right that the scriptures address the physical needs and not just words.  In the early church they lived in a communal setting, so these things would be a lot clearer than they will ever be to an internet community.

Beloved
« Last Edit: October 27, 2007, 09:07:18 PM by Beloved »
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Matt

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2007, 10:29:02 PM »

It is 9:15 am here in Japan, usually, it's time to go to church.  Today we are not going, instead, my wife and I will have a talk about all of this and I am going to look up some scriptures for my 11 yr girl, she wants to go to a haunted house and is torn (social outcast stuff with peers).

Kat (my wife) knows where I stand, so please don't think I am dropping a bomb on her because of this discussion.  Please pray for us!

Matt
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2007, 05:53:42 AM »

Hello MG

I can relate to this where you share: I was so depressed I couldn't even get up off the floor.

I know what it means not to be able to get up. I was so depressed I wanted to stop breathing and begged God to let me die. And this where you say : During the next 10 years I sat in that desert without one word from God.

I  put myself through treatment for depression for a decade.  Facing the deepest fears and pains through therapy, I have since realised by coming to learn the Truth Ray has published, that my pain was instilled from Babylonian teachings! I still wanted to die because in those moments of immobilising depression I knew that the sleep of death was what I desired and somehow I knew that this was not as taught by the Church. I was escorted by Christ in those 10 years I believe as there is no way I could do anything for my self. My self was crushed and in the deepest despair that made no rational sense to me. All thanks to His Mercy I am here writing this post. All thanks to His Mercy you have shared yours.

There should be more people warning of the debilitating effects of Church Heresy and Blasphemy than there are those who paint it with shiny glossy enameled approvals and defenses. But there aren't!

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
 




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