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Author Topic: hey  (Read 2356 times)

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Lacey23

  • Guest
hey
« on: November 02, 2007, 12:31:08 AM »

I need help here,

i need some help on how to explain to a 13 year old regarding her question. she asked me for scriptures to prove that we are not to go to church, I tried to explain that the church is the body of christ, the people, not a place, not a building, but the people. She doesnt' seem to grasp the reality of my answer. James 1 :27 explains that the true religion is to help others, helping them live right, and Jesus said that we are to worship him in spirit and in truth  and that there only requires 2 or three people for God to be there and etc, and church can be anywhere u meet, but she thinks that church is a place to go to, i.e. a building.  So please help me here. I need scriptures that shows what a true worship is, and what God desires of us to do, and how we are to help the church, i.e the people so i can personally explain to her a bit better.

thanks, people!

Lacey
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josh

  • Guest
Re: hey
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2007, 01:18:19 AM »

Lacey,

I'm running a bit short on time at the moment, but I will make time first thing in the morning to give you a proper response... but this is an excellent question, one that I believe if answered properly would be of great benefit to the membership here at the forum.

Let me suggest this article, http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html, which I believe will be beneficial as you determine the best way to discuss this subject with others and come to a better understanding of the subject yourself.

That being said, let me issue a word of warning... the phrase "coming out of her" as referring to the church means much more then not attending a meeting at a physical location, in fact it has little to do with that at all... we must be careful to not confuse the physical with the spiritual.

"Coming out of her" is first a spiritual act, one initated by the God who works ALL in ALL and an action we are incapable of making without God ... the changes in our physical life are simply by products of what is happening to us spiritually.

We must be careful of simply making a list of things that true believers do not do... ie. going to church, taking communion, celebrating the sabbath... and then assuming that because we do not do these things we are "the elect"... that is what the church for many ages has believed... that they could attain salvation by works ( or in other words by doing certain actions and not doing other actions as determined by the church )...

This is a subject that should not be entered into lightly... but with much prayer and study of the word.

God's Peace.
Josh



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DuluthGA

  • Guest
Re: hey
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2007, 04:31:19 AM »

Hi Lacey, :)

V good question!  I have attempted to answer this for my friends and family strictly with Scripture by putting together all the New Testament verses that I saw relevant to this very theme.  So I will share them with you as well.  I posted them all here at the forum and update them periodically.  They can be found in the Off Topics section titled (Dear Churchianity...) Please Don't Build Another Church at:  http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5250.0.html

I agree with Josh that it's somewhat of a complex answer and only one that our Lord's spirit can lead someone into the full and culminating answer... but the Scriptures themselves are the best place to start... and dear soul Lacey, it's never an overnight thing, so take it as it comes, as you are led.  It is delightful to me to hear you have a young inquiring soul that you have taken under your wing!  I often enjoy a paraphrased version of God's Word such as The Message.  Here is James 1: 26-27 from it:

Anyone who sets himself up as "religious" by talking a good game is self-decived.  This kind of religion is hot air and only hot air.  Real religion, the kind that passes muster before God the Father is this:  Reach out to the homeless and loveless in their plight and guard against corruption from the godless world.

This verse-set says A LOT, but dear soul, it doesn't say it all on the subject, so you see?  More to come on this... in the sweet by and by.

Joy in Him,
Janice

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Chris R

  • Guest
Re: hey
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2007, 10:01:30 AM »

I need help here,

i need some help on how to explain to a 13 year old regarding her question. she asked me for scriptures to prove that we are not to go to church, I tried to explain that the church is the body of christ, the people, not a place, not a building, but the people. She doesnt' seem to grasp the reality of my answer. James 1 :27 explains that the true religion is to help others, helping them live right, and Jesus said that we are to worship him in spirit and in truth  and that there only requires 2 or three people for God to be there and etc, and church can be anywhere u meet, but she thinks that church is a place to go to, i.e. a building.  So please help me here. I need scriptures that shows what a true worship is, and what God desires of us to do, and how we are to help the church, i.e the people so i can personally explain to her a bit better.

thanks, people!

Lacey

Hi Lacey,

Read all of the website www.bibletruths.com once you have read and understood all that is on it, you will be able to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: [1 Pet 3:15]

Chris R
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Grateful

  • Guest
Re: hey
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2007, 05:09:47 PM »

Hello Lacey!

This thought just now occurred to me, that MIGHT help :

Physical acts  speak louder than physical words ,
Spiritual words speak louder than physical acts ,
And Spiritual acts speak louder than Spiritual words .

In other words, Faith without Works is dead.  And, God has built a Church without hands, the New Jerusalem, built of Living Stones (US who BELIEVE in the Father and Jesus,  and OBEY Their Commandments, not merely profess Faith in both of Them).  Does this help any?  Let me know, and I'll try to clarify.

BLESSINGS!!   :D

Linda

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Robin

  • Guest
Re: hey
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2007, 11:08:15 PM »

I've had a lot of success with my 9 year old granddaughter.

We sit out on the porch at night and discuss the truth. I tell her what the church teaches and then tell her what the scripture teaches. She is able to understand it very well. She will even read something on her own now and quickly recognize it as being a lie.

I think a 13 year old could really benefit from sitting down and looking at the scripture and comparing it to what the church is teaching. Ray has many verses in his papers that are easy to gather thanks to all his hard work. Maybe after she sees that you don't share the same beliefs and God has called you out to be with those who also believe the truth as you do she will have a better understanding.

If she just wants a quick answer that will make it difficult.
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jER

  • Guest
Re: hey
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2007, 06:40:11 PM »

Sounds like you are trying to save her, from a burning building?
After all, that is what is being taught for the most part.

Therefore, perhaps understanding that all will be Reconciled may help,
as we are called out of false teachings (i.e. the building of man’s doctrines).

Reconciliation Scriptures - for ALL (repeated from a prior thread/ post).
________________________________________

 1.   1Tim 2:4-God will have all to be saved - Can His will be thwarted?
 2.   1Tim 2:4-God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth - Will His desire come to pass, or is it a WEAK WISH?
 3.   1Tim 2:6-Salvation of all is…testified in due time - Are we judging God before due time?
 4.   Jn 12:47-Jesus came to save all - Will He succeed or FAIL?
 5.   Eph 1:11-God works all after the counsel of His will - Can our will overcome His?
 6.   Jn 4:42-Jesus is Savior of the world - Can He be Savior of all, without saving all?
 7.   1Jn 4:14-Jesus is Savior of the world - Why don't we BELIEVE it?
 8.   Jn 12:32-Jesus will draw all mankind unto Himself - To burn or to love?
 9.   Col 1:16-By Him all were created - Will He lose a part of His creation?
10.   Rm 5:15-21-In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live - The same ALL?
11.   1Cor 15:22-In Adam all die, in Christ all live - Again, the same ALL?
12.   Eph 1:10-All come into Him at the fulness of times - Are YOU tired of seeing the word, ALL?
13.   Phil 2:9-11-Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord - Will the Holy Spirit be given to everyone?
14.   1Cor 12:3-Cannot confess except by Holy Spirit - See what I mean?
15.   Rm 11:26-All Israel will be saved - But most Jews don't believe yet!
16.   Acts 3:20, 21-Restitution of all - How plain can you get?
17.   Luke 2:10-Jesus will be joy to all people - Is there joy in Satan’s "hell"?
18.   Heb 8:11, 12-All will know God - How long will you tarry, O Lord?
19.   Eph 2:7-His grace shown in the ages to come - Have we judged Him before the coming age?
20.   Titus 2:11-Grace has appeared to all - Experientially or Prophetically?
21.   Rm 8:19-21-Creation set at liberty - How much of creation? After those who have the firstfruits of the spirit?
22.   Col 1:20-All reconciled unto God - There's that word "ALL" again.
23.   1Cor 4:5-All will have praise of God - What for?
24.   Jms 5:11-End of the Lord is full of mercy - Is eternal "hell" merciful?
25.   Rev 15:4-All nations worship when God's judgments are seen - Could His judgment be mercy?
26.   Rm 11:32-All subject to unbelief, mercy on all - All?
27.   Rm 11:36-All out of, through, and into Him - ALL into Him?
28.   Eph 4:10-Jesus will fill all things - does this include "hell?"
29.   Rev 5:13-All creation seen praising God - Including Satan? All creation!
30.   1Cor 15:28-God will be all in all - What does that mean?
31.   Rev 21:4, 5-No more tears, all things made new - ALL made new or few? Are you crying still?
32.   Jn 5:25-All dead who hear will live - How many will hear?
33.   Jn 5:28-All in the grave will hear & come forth - How will the "righteous" Judge, judge?
34.   1 Cor 3:15-All saved so as by fire - How can FIRE save you?
35.   Mk 9:49-Everyone shall be salted with fire - Including you?
36.   Rm 11:15-Reconciliation of the world - Will fire save the inhabitants (world)?
37.   2Cor 5:15-Jesus died for ALL - Did He die in vain?
38.   Jn 8:29-Jesus always does what pleases His Father - What pleases the Father? (1Tim 2:4)
39.   Heb 1:2-Jesus is Heir of all things - Does "things" include people? YES.
40.   Jn 17:2-Jesus gives eternal life to all that His Father gave Him - How many did the Father give Him?
41.   Jn 3:35-The Father gave Him all things - (Repeated for emphasis) Study the word "things."
42.   1 Tim 4:9-11-Jesus is Savior of all - Can't seem to get away from that word "all."
43.   Heb. 7:25-Jesus is able to save to the uttermost - How far is "uttermost?"
44.   1Cor 15:26-Last enemy, death, will be destroyed - In the "lake of fire" which is the "second" death. No more dying (Rev 21:4, Isa. 25:8 )?
45.   Is 46:10-God will do all His pleasure - Does Old Testament agree with the New?
46.   Gen 18:18-All families of the earth will be blessed - Here comes that word "all" again.
47.   Dan 4:35-God's will done in heaven and earth - What can defeat His will?
48.   Ps 66:3, 4-Enemies will submit to God - Can any stay rebellious?
49.   Ps 90:3-God turns man to destruction, and then says return - How can one return from "destruction”?  Humbled, bruised and ashamed?
50.   Is 25:7-Will destroy veil spread over all nations - All nations?
51.   Deut 32:39-He kills and makes alive - Kills to bring life?
52.   Ps 33:15-God fashions all hearts - "All" hearts, including men like "Hitler"?
53.   Prv 16:9-Man devises, God directs his steps - What about "free will"?
54.   Prv 19:21-Man devises, but God's counsel stands - So much for "free will."
55.   La 3:31, 32-God will not cast off forever - Why does He cast off in the first place? 
56.   Isa 2:2-All nations shall flow to the Lord's house - ALL nations?
57.   Ps 86:9-All nations will worship Him - ALL nations!
58.   Isa 45:23-All descendants of Israel justified - Including the wicked ones?
59.   Ps 138:4-All kings will praise God - Are you catching on?
60.   Ps 65:2-4-All flesh will come to God - That sounds wondrous.
61.   Ps 72:18-God only does wondrous things - I wish we would BELIEVE that.
62.   Isa 19:14, 15-Egypt & Assyria will be restored - Really?
63.   Ezk 16:55-Sodom will be restored to former estate - Sounds impossible.
64.   Jer 32:17-Nothing is too difficult for Him - Nothing? No, nothing!
65.   Ps 22:27-All ends of the earth will turn to Him - For what purpose?
66.   Ps 22:27-All families will worship before Him - Praise His name!
67.   Ps 145:9-He is good to all - Including your worst enemies.
68.   Ps 145:9-His mercies are over all his works - Let's start believing that.
69.   Ps 145:14-He raises all who fall - Who hasn't sinned?
70.   Ps 145:10-All His works will praise Him - For "eternal torment"?
71.   Isa 25:6-Lord makes a feast for all people - And you are invited.
72.   Jer 32:35-Never entered His mind to torture his children with fire.- This came from the carnal mind, NOT SPIRITUAL.
73.   Jn 6:44-No one can come to Him unless He draws (drag) them. - You can't "choose" to follow Him, SELF-DETERMINATION.
74.   Jn 12:32-I will draw all mankind unto Myself - Amen!
75.   Ps 135:6-God does what pleases Him - If it PLEASES Him to SAVE ALL that He might be in all, are you upset?

PEOPLE ADD A LITTLE AND TAKE AWAY FROM THE WORD, TURN AN AGE INTO ETERNITY, REDUCE SALVATION TO JUST A FEW
AND DIMINISH GOD’S WILL TO NOTHING MORE THAN A WEAK DESIRE.  ALL WILL NOT BE OVER-COMERS, BUT ALL WILL COME
TO THE THRONE OF HIS GRACE. 



...in the presence of the Lamb (Rev.14:10).


A friend in Christ

-jER
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: hey
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2007, 09:08:48 AM »

Hello Lacey

Perhaps you should approach this from the LOF teachings suggested regarding the different Churches for her to begin to identify between the Pagan Church and the Church of Christ. Check also that she is not just parroting an adult who is influencing her, to question you about spiritually discerned matters.

If it were me, I'd ask her to explain what she understands by Spirit and also what she understands from the following Scripture.

2 Cor 6 : 16 What agreement can there be between a temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God....

I believe you will have to do all the questioning rather than trying to prove anything to her young level of comprehension keeping at the back of your mind that first is the physical and then the spiritual.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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Lacey23

  • Guest
Re: hey
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2007, 01:47:17 PM »

I've had a lot of success with my 9 year old granddaughter.

We sit out on the porch at night and discuss the truth. I tell her what the church teaches and then tell her what the scripture teaches. She is able to understand it very well. She will even read something on her own now and quickly recognize it as being a lie.

I think a 13 year old could really benefit from sitting down and looking at the scripture and comparing it to what the church is teaching. Ray has many verses in his papers that are easy to gather thanks to all his hard work. Maybe after she sees that you don't share the same beliefs and God has called you out to be with those who also believe the truth as you do she will have a better understanding.

If she just wants a quick answer that will make it difficult.

Hey Mg... and guys! it is diffcult because she and I  talk over myspace and instant messenger, she is from florida and I am in Georgia but we try to talk as much as we can, she is my cousin.  it is hard to keep up bec she has other things to do.  she took note about my blogs and started asking me questions after reading my blogs. she asked me for one scripture that tells us that we shouldn't go to church.... I replied to her that a question is never answered with just one scripture and stated that I never said we should never go to church, I told her that the word church.'s definition was misunderstood by many christians and that Jesus' church is not physical but spiritual and showed her that the church building is her body, her spirit and that God lives in her temple and told her that she can be the church rather than think church is a place, a building,  and she could unite with other believers of like mind, and share with them, just anywhere.  Jesus oftentimes hung with less desireable people, which p'd his followers, and they enjoyed his company as much, and it started the ripple effect bec of it, and he didn't even judge them or tell them what they needed to do, they asked him.  Jesus gives a clear example of pursuing people, of accepting people at face value. and his teaching is unambiguous: do not judge others or you'll face the same yardstick; remove the log from your eye before pulling the splinter from your friend's eye; and you do not have the right to condemn others unless you are sinless (see matt 7:1-5).

I explained to her about what Jesus told the Samarian woman about where to go to worship and provided scriptures about that we are to worship God in spirit and in truth and explained alot of things about God's view on people, how God likes to see inward of you rather than on the outside becuase
Jesus said this phrase to a bunch of religious leaders who chose religousness over love and obedience, "I tell you the truth… the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you." (Mat 21:31). Here Jesus wasn't condoning any sexual sin, but noting the condition of the heart. He does not condemn you becuase you dont go to church, or count all your good behaviors and such, he sees the state of heart.
I explained what Jesus said about the samartian story and modernized it to this generation's understanding, I told her that if the samartian story was retold differently,  The original story was premised with the question, "what must I do to inherit eternal life." Jesus says that one must love the Lord God with everything and then their neighbor as themselves. The religious leader question further, asking who exactly is his neighbor. So Jesus started the story with a man that had fallen, been beaten, robbed, and left for dead on his way to Jericho. A priest past him by, saw him and continued on his journey. A Levite like a lay minister or a some sort of modern day leader in the church, passed by the man also without helping. Then finally, a Samaritan, found the man, he immediately rendered assistance by giving him first aid and taking him to an inn to recover while promising to cover the expenses. He pays the innkeeper two denarii, silver coins equal to an entire day's wages for an average laborer. In Jewish culture, a Samaritan was a 2nd class citizen, half Jew half gentile and not allowed to associate with the Jewish culture. They were seen as half breeds and despised by all. At the end of the parable, Jesus says to be like this Samaritan! To a Jewish Leader, as Jesus was explaining this in Luke 10:25-37, this was a strong and bold statement.

 So I modernized the parable to this generation's understanding so she can catch jesus' point, began the story like this... A Roman Catholic Priest passes by the beaten man, then an evangelical Christian but he passed too But a gay man, as he traveled, came upon him and took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds. Put the wounded man in his own car, to a hospital and stayed to care for him. The next day, he paid the hospital saying, "look after him and I will repay you for any extra expense beyond what I have left."

i explained that the story of the Samaritan,  shocked his Jewish listeners- this modernized story too would shock many church goers also. Jesus was constantly pushing the limits of the definitions that the religious leaders had created to put on the commandmandment of Love. Jesus by characteristic is Love. Jesus picked the most hated of all persons in that religious culture, the Samaritans in order to make his point.

I explained that God cares about the state of heart, not what u do, becuase the state of heart controls  everything  you do, it makes who you are.

I told her that she shouldn't think that the buliding is GOd's house but her spirit is God's house, and she should think of the church as the body of believers, not a physical church buliding and that it shouldn't stop her from being kind to others that don't go to church nor should she try to make them feel inferior to her because they don't go to church or believe in the same religion she does. She shouldn't be friends wtih others just to win them for the LORD or get them to go to church, but be their friend for the sake of their friendship, just like that. Of course i told her that in nicer and gentler form.  I told her that she can bring the church to the non believers, by assoicating with them. because God's house is filled with love, mercy and grace, and people need that. its sparse everywhere. the church can be held anywhere and it only takes 2 or three people for it to be called the church :)

do  you guys think i went a bit overboard?


to answer  Arcturus's question, yes, she has her mom, my aunt, and my other cousin, Corey, her brother,  teaching her things, and they are like mind, I think they feel that i need to be saved..  she asks me every once in a while, if I believed in Jesus and that he died for our sins and so on, i told her of course, and that i believe that Jesus is the SAVIOUR of the WORLD and that he will in due time, save all souls. I dont think they like my response but they continue to wedge christianity in almost every conversation. Thats ok. I want to be able to let them know they can always talk to me if they want to and not feel inferior or judged. I simply point it out gently, and always in general. They are not ready but I hope that in due time, God will reveal it to my aunt, savanna and Corey. the pastor told Corey that he felt that God has something important planned for Corey and just invited him to church council. i think thats wonderful, I think they like that and it makes them feel important and they claim to feel loved by their church, which i was fine as long as they dont' rip them off and hurt them in the end like they were many times with several churches, but they said this one doesnt, and doesnt judge, doesn't force them to tithe, and so on, and i hope it is geninune in what they do. 






« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 02:01:55 PM by Lacey23 »
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: hey
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2007, 02:52:36 PM »

I think you are giving her something to consider. Perhaps give her the link to BT. She will pass it on to her Mom and maybe she will learn something  :D I believe your cousin  is in the middle of her elders and shouldn't be because the peer pressure is on her to side here or there and in that situation just how open to teaching can anyone be?

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dessa

  • Guest
Re: hey
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2007, 03:37:24 PM »

The way you used examples of people today just thrilled me!  You sound as if you are a teacher sure nuff!  I loved everything you wrote!
Shalom,
dessa
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DuluthGA

  • Guest
Re: hey
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2007, 04:59:11 AM »

Thank you much Lacey for your VERY TIMELY post!

I think what that really means is I know of something... some human interaction occurring currently.... that relates to that... what you're saying SPEAKS TO ME in a large and spiritual way... and I am thankful for that shared insight tonight.

And yes, I agree with you that

Quote
Jesus was constantly pushing the limits of the definitions that the religious leaders had created to put on the commandmandment of Love. Jesus by characteristic is Love.

So appropriate for my personal consideration!  So appropriate!

Don't forget dear soul... His kingdom come! :)
Joy,
Janice

p.s.  I appreciate the effort you took to type that up!
« Last Edit: November 11, 2007, 05:00:12 AM by DuluthGA »
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