> General Discussions
God is creating (present) man in His image?
lilitalienboi16:
First of all, The NEW TESTEMENT. REfers to DEATH as SLEEP. Even Jesus Himself said DEATH WAS SLEEP.
How do you believe that even though "GOD NEVER CHANGES." "JESUS CHRIST IS THE SAME YESTERDAY, TODAY AND TOMORROW" that when we die our soul is still alive? IT IS DEAD. Let me show you with scripture.
David compares death to sleep in Psalm 13
PSALM 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God; enlighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death; (NKJV)
PSALM 115:17 The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any who go down into silence; (NASB)
The new testement re-assures us that all those who died, are dieng and will DIE, ARE DEAD to the day. None have gone to heaven.
ACTS 2:29 "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. . . . 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens" . . . (NKJV)
David new when He dies He would sleep, and the new testement re-affirms that belief that HE IS STILL DEAD TO THAT DAY!
The New Testament speaks of death as sleep many times also:
JOHN 11:11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up." 12 Then His disciples said, "Lord, if he sleeps he will get well." 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead." (NKJV)
These are the words of JESUS HIMSELF YOUR GOD.
ACTS 7:59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not charge them with this sin." And when he had said this, he fell asleep. (NKJV)
Do you honostly think Steph got tired and took a nap while being stoned to death? Obviously not He was praying to God to recieve -- NOTICE CAREFULLY -- HIS SPIRIT. NOT HIS SOUL. MAN IS THE LIVING SOUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HE DIED. HE IS ASLEEP TO THIS DAY!
I CORINTHIANS 11:29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. (NKJV)
Again there is that reference to sleep as death.
I CORINTHIANS 15:6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. (NKJV)
II PETER 3:3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation." (NKJV)
Again death as sleep.
DANIEL 12:13 "But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days." (NKJV)
The angel concerning Daniel told Him what would Happen. He would REST UNTIL THE END OF DAYS (Ressurection of the dead) THE ANGEL OF GOD said this. You believe scripture lightseeker?
JOHN 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. (RSV
EPHESIANS 5:13 But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light. 14 Therefore He says: "Awake, you who sleep, arise from the dead, and Christ will give you light." (NKJV)
More scripture showing everyone is in the tomb (Shoel/Grave/Hades) till the day of the RESSURECTION OF THE DEAD. NOT THE LIVING. THE DEAD.
I believe Paul is talking to you hear lightseeker.
I CORINTHIANS 15:12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? (NKJV)
I CORINTHIANS 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen .14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up -- if in fact the dead do not rise .(NKJV)
I CORINTHIANS 15:16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! (NKJV)
I CORINTHIANS 15:18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. (NKJV)
I CORINTHIANS 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. (NKJV)
I CORINTHIANS 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed -- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." (NKJV)
Should i go on, do you need more scriptural proof that WHEN YOUD IE YOU SLEEP? Fine let me do it to nail it through your head, God willing you are not blind to the truth.
I THESSALONIANS 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. (NASB)
I THESSALONIANS 4:14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him. (NIV)
I THESSALONIANS 4:15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words. (NIV)
If you think anyone goes to Heaven right after they die, you are going completely against scripture. Not only does the Oldtestement affirm this belief, but so does the New Testement. Jesus Himself Told us LAZURUS SLEEPS. PLAINLY HE IS DEAD! Now, Jesus AFTER HIS DEATH, After BEING RESSURECTED, JESUS HAD STILL NOT YET ASCENDED TO HEAVEN!!!!
JOHN 20:15 Jesus said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?" She, supposing Him to be the gardener, said to Him, "Sir, if You have carried Him away, tell me where You have laid Him, and I will take Him away." 16 Jesus said to her, "Mary!" She turned and said to Him, "Rabboni!" (which is to say, Teacher). 17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.' " (NKJV)
Must i go on? Lightseeker if you still do not understand this concept of Death is like SLeep, then i cannot say anymore. Your argument is against scripture, and not me. Your argument is with the Word of GOd.
God bless,
May He open your eyes to this truth.
Edit: For spelling :)
Joey Porter:
What is it that you two have been debating all these days? I'm not even sure Lightseeker is arguing on behalf of an "immortal soul" doctrine. Or am I wrong? :?
Lightseeker:
I missed my conference...wrong weekend. I also edited some of your quote Ray to save space not change your thoughts.
Hillsbororiver
--- Quote ---Sorry Dee I can't see your quote from Galations backing your supposition, it is clear that the breath of life from God and the body formed by God is what constitutes our "living soul." There is no doubt or argument that the desires of the flesh and the Spirit of God are not compatible. Do you have any scripture that backs your "soul lining up" statement?
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul5315.
The original Hebrew shows the word "nephesh" to be a breathing creature.
I do not see the "soul" (your definition) lining up behind the flesh or the Spirit here either;
#1504;פשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite (emotions?) , beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust (of the eyes = soul?) , man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Phi 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
I have seen scripture use heart & mind as synonyms for our thought/thinking process, but not soul, soul is body + breath of life.
--- End quote ---
I understand your difficulty with my perspective:
--- Quote ---Do you have any scripture that backs your "soul lining up" statement?
--- End quote ---
Let me try to show some which indicate there's something more than I was taught in the church.
1PE 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
If our souls were saved when we said "Yes" to Jesus then why is Peter talking about a future salvation of the soul here to "Christians". Weren't they (if a soul is man) or their souls (my view) already saved? I don't believe so.
1PE 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Here he's talking about 'us' purifying our soul by obeying the truth which comes from/through the Spirit. Where does the decision to obey come from? The implication here is, from the soul (mind, will, intellect) I think. The spirit wants always wants to, the flesh never wants to. We purify (work out the salvation of) our soul by deciding to obey...don't we? That's been my experience anyhow.
JAM 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
How is our soul saved? Here James is writing to "Christians" telling them how. It is once again by walking in obedience to the word which comes from the leading to the Sspirit IMO. And what is the engrafting process talked about here? I think the following verse explains it. For me at least.
ROM 12:1,2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service :2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Where does the decision to crucify the flesh come from? According to the above scripture it's the mind (soul/psuche mind, will, emotions).
The spirit will always try to point us to the tree of life and not the tree of good and evil. The flesh will always do the opposite. It's the mind will emotions of the soul which decide who to listen to or be led by. That's what these verses seem to indicate to me. My soul (mind will emotions psyche) must decide to obey the lust of the spirit or the lust of the flesh which Galatians talks about.
The heart in Heb and Gr both speak of thoughts, feelings, mind, intellect. But I place the heart in the realm of the subconscious soul/mind versus the conscious soul/mind. That treasure which is truely deposited in the depths of our mind is programed into the DNA of the physical body. It is no longer short term memory memes...but affects our action when we don't have a chance to think. Like hitting your finger with the hammer while next to your "Christian" brother. What comes out of your mouth is that which is programmed deep.
I hope this helps shed light on why I question the traditional definiton, even if it's not how you see it. I believe I'm presenting scripture which indicates there's more to consider.
Good night all, :-k
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