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Author Topic: I asked an expert!  (Read 3166 times)

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bwstaircase89

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I asked an expert!
« on: December 03, 2007, 07:05:01 PM »

Hey everyone,

I wanted to find a neutral source about the meaning of "aion" and "aionios" so I went to this Ask an Expert site and asked a guy who speaks Greek about the words. Here is my question and his answer:

Subject:     aion and aionios
Question:     Hi there!

I had a question about the meaning of the words aion and aionios.

Many of the sources I have questioned have said that aion means eternal. This can't be right because there are passages in the New Testament that talk about being before the "aion".

These sources also say that aionios means eternal.

But, many other sources tell me that "aion" means age. These sources also tell me that the adjective aionios means age-lasting or eonian.

So, in the Greek of the New Testment does aionios mean eternal? I have read that the ancient Greeks didn't have a concept of eternity and the word that gets the closest to eternal is aidios.

Thank You,

Pat

(Answer)     

Dear Pat,
Thanks for you question.

I want to say I don't have much time lately so keep your questions for the days I return from the AllExperts holiday break.

Aion means century, age. Aionios is the one that lasts for ever, is eternal. In modern Greek aionios means eternal.

Well, Ancient greek might not have the concept that one century(aion in modern greek) lasts for 100 years. The thing is that they didn't have a calendar as we know it today.

Hope this helps
Yours,
Bob

I guess the ancients didn't have a concept of eternity. In the "Is Everlasting Scriptural" article that is what Ray shows. When you put the word aionios into the context of some passages though, it shows that it can't be eternal.

I thought that was interesting,

Pat
    
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: I asked an expert!
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2007, 07:27:06 PM »

Hello Pat

The Scriptures did not have a concept for the word Hell as is meant by the Pagans either! ;D

Just shows how the modern Greek language and the Pagans could be holding hands! ;D ;)

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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josh

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Re: I asked an expert!
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2007, 09:04:18 PM »

Hi Pat.

I believe it may be impossible to find a "neutral" or "unbias" source when desiring to know the true meaning of the word "aion" or "aionios"... the truth is everyone has an agenda behind the way that they interpret the scriptures... and often, it is self-serving.

I realize no matter what I may say... you will continue to search out the "true" meaning behind this word... but I challenge you to not hinge your faith on what God's plan for mankind is simply on the translation of one word, or two... or a thousand.

Read the word, pray and seek God for the truth... to know and understand the character of God throughout the scriptures... I believe this will, if God wills, give you a clear picture of what God's true desire for humanity is throughout the ages and into eternity.

May God grant us all patience and wisdom as we seek after God.

God's Peace.
Josh
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: I asked an expert!
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2007, 09:27:11 PM »

Quote
In modern Greek aionios means eternal

Words many times change what they mean over time.

Dennis
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Truth101

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Re: I asked an expert!
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2007, 09:43:08 AM »

HI all,

I have looked into these words a few years ago and I saw one thing that I believe may have been over looked.

I did a study on every scripture using the word "aionios" and it appears that everytime the word "aionios" is used it is in reference to the kingdom age. All other times the word "aion" is used.

Aion is always referring to an age or period of time in general it would seem but, "aionios" seems to always refer to the kingdom specifically. This may be the reason even so called speciallists in translation have such a hard time coming in agreement over true definition.

"Aionios life" and "aionios death" are both descriptive of our destined condition in the kingdom, never referring to this age we live in now. When all is fully made whole and God is All in All we have "life" period, not aionios life. So what I see is that the word "aionios" carries with it a definition greater than just a description of time but with special characteristics which are distinct from all other ages.

If I am wrong on this please let me know. I have been looking at this for some time and cannot find anything on the contrary.

In Jesus name, God bless, Dave
« Last Edit: December 15, 2007, 09:44:28 AM by Truth101 »
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Truth101

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Re: I asked an expert!
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2007, 09:56:08 AM »

I just wanted to add one more thing.

It seems as though our translators in actuality never really added to the word of truth but have really taken away from the word of truth. They took any understanding away regarding important issues nessessary for the growth of the student.

By turning the word aionios into a word of timelessness they lost any hope of their eyes being opened to the very broad meaning of this word which lends a fuller understanding to the larger hope that is spoken of when this word is used.

In light of this we also understand that this strong delusion is in Gods plan for a reason.

God Bless, Dave
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: I asked an expert!
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2007, 12:52:25 PM »

By turning the word aionios into a word of timelessness they lost any hope of their eyes being opened to the very broad meaning of this word which lends a fuller understanding to the larger hope

Is that not just so insidiously wicked! That they TURNED  the word to give ANOTHER meaning and to preach another Jesus and another Gospel of doom, torment and Hell!

Of course this is part of the Plan Procedure and Purpose of God in bringing us to know good and evil.  :D and what evil it was for theologians to turn God's Word into their own merchandise!

Good observation Truth101

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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willieH

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Re: I asked an expert!
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2007, 01:13:51 AM »

willieH: Howdy dudes & dudelettes  ;D

btw, I'm new here, and wish to note that my use of CAPS is just for emphasis, please my new friends, don't take it as shouting or condescension... thanks  ;)

It is my observation that NO WORD in ANY LANGUAGE, can VALIDLY express ...ETERNITY...

Aion and Aionios BOTH deal with amounts of TIME... and can be observed as either a set period or indefinite period, but they still denote increments of TIME...

TIME is a CREATED entity which had a BEGINNING (Gen 1) and shall have an END (John 6:44 & John 12:48 = LAST DAY)  That JESUS denoted there shall be a LAST DAY, by necessity, ends TIME... for TIME's foundational element is DAYS...

If DAYS end (and they MUST, for CHRIST said they would), then all the elements of a DAY end [seconds, minutes, hours], and ALL elements which consist of DAYS also end [weeks, months, years, decades, milleniums].

If TIME BEGAN, which it DID and shall END which it WILL, then (I believe that) no form of language nor finite human is capable of denoting let alone comprehending, something [INFINITE/ETERNAL] which has neither a beginning or an end.

We are all TIME BOUND beings... GOD, and the Heavenly realm, stands outside of TIME...

We exist as: "were, are, and will be"..

GOD always IS... 

We are always CHANGING amidst TIME, GOD never CHANGES amidst ETERNITY...

ALL things IN TIME, have beginnings and endings... Nothing IN ETERNITY has either.

I have read an email where someone noted AION as age, and AIONIOS as ageLESS... and Ray answered that the notation of LESS does not mean MORE... which is what is implied by many who observe AIONIOS...

Again, in my observation, neither of these terms has to do with ETERNITY... both have to do with TIME... as long as it shall LAST, ...or until it ENDS (per JESUS - John 6:44 & John 12:48)...

Just my 2 centz...


peaCe...

In  JESUS ...willieH  ;D
« Last Edit: December 20, 2007, 01:30:17 AM by willieH »
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Truth101

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Re: I asked an expert!
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2007, 05:36:13 AM »

Hi Willie and welcome, Im new on the forum as well. God bless you in His wisdom and understanding. Your post is right on. I would just like to add and little tidbit to maybe lend a fuller understanding of the word "aionios" if I may.

Again, in my observation, neither of these terms has to do with ETERNITY... both have to do with TIME... as long as it shall LAST, ...or until it ENDS (per JESUS - John 6:44 & John 12:48)...

Just my 2 centz...


Aionios is not merely an element of time. Aionios is a specific period of time that appears to be refering to a specified age which is the kingdom age. I have been studying this for some time now and this has been my conclusion but to be sure I would like to run this by Ray and get him to verify or deny it as I have done with scripture.

I would like to believe that God has given me the gift of thoroughly searching the scriptures but until I know for sure I'll leave the concluding to Ray :)

Anyways God bless and I hope this helps and hopefully someone will talk to Ray about this and share it with us on the forum. I dont have any way of comunicating with Ray as I live in Canada.

God bless and again, welcome to the forum.

Dave



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Kat

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Re: I asked an expert!
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2007, 12:02:30 PM »


Hi WillieH,

Quote
TIME is a CREATED entity which had a BEGINNING (Gen 1) and shall have an END (John 6:44 & John 12:48 = LAST DAY)  That JESUS denoted there shall be a LAST DAY, by necessity, ends TIME... for TIME's foundational element is DAYS...

I do not see that time will end when Christ returns.  It seems that those Scripture are talking about this church age ending.  Then there will be ages to come, therefore time must go on through the ages.

Eph 2:7  so that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

I not so sure that because time had a beginning, it must also have an ending.  The physical creation seems to be based on time.  So if time ended, wouldn't the creation end also?  Maybe the "eon of the eons" means there will always be eons continually.

Eph 3:21 to Him be the glory in the ecclesia and in Christ Jesus for all the generations of the eon of the eons! Amen!

Here is an email from Ray.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2123.0.html -----

Dear Jeffrey:

I am not so sure that time ever ceases to exist. The "eons" of time cease to exist, but time itself may never cease. I have seen lately that dictionaries totally contradict their own definitions of eternal and eternity.  I will write a new paper in the near future entitled "RETHINKING ETERNITY" [Does time cease at the consummation of the eons?].

God be with you,
Ray 
------------------------------------

I'm looking forward to see what Ray has to say about 'Rethinking Eternity.'

mercy, peace and love
Kat


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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: I asked an expert!
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2007, 03:36:49 PM »


Some points to ponder all quotes from Ray in blue font found at  http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.0.html :

Heb. 13:08, ďJesus Christ the same [Gk. Ďsame One; same Selfí] yesterday, today, and forever.Ē
It is paramount that God never change, therein lies the ultimate stability of eternity - GOD WILL NEVER EVER CHANGE.  One doesnít change total perfection.  Creation will change, albeit God will never change.

We like to think in terms of back then and the future out there.  This was back at creation and now we are headed for eternity, no.  You canít look at it that way, it doesnít work.

If you want to come up with an analogy of where God is in His own realm, as far as time goes.  The closes physical analogy you could come up with is a circle.  Not starting back there and going this way, that way is the past and this way is the future.  Now if the realm of eternity is as a circle, can somebody point to where eternity begins on a circle?  Can anyone show me, on this circle, where eternity ends?  You canít, can you.
Now Iíll give you another little mind boggler, not only can you not show me where it begins or where it ends, Iím telling you it has no beginning and it has no end.  It doesnít move in a circle, it is a circle.  Therefore time has nothing to do with eternity.

Eternity has nothing to do with time, time starts here and goes to there.  Eternity is like a circle,  you canít find the beginning and you canít find the end.  Because it has no beginning and it has no end.  Therefore in that sense a circle is ultimate truth.


Psalms 31 : 14 But I trusted in, relied on, and was confident in You, O Lord; I said, You are my God. 15 MY TIMES ARE IN YOUR HANDS.

This also reminds me of

Ecc 3: 1 To everything there is a season, and a TIME for every matter or purpose under heaven....

Peace be to you

Arcturus :)
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willieH

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Re: I asked an expert!
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2007, 04:49:07 PM »

willieH: Hi Kat!  Peace be unto you!   ;D

Thanks for your thoughts Kat...

Quote from: willieH
TIME is a CREATED entity which had a BEGINNING (Gen 1) and shall have an END (John 6:44 & John 12:48 = LAST DAY)  That JESUS denoted there shall be a LAST DAY, by necessity, ends TIME... for TIME's foundational element is DAYS...

Quote from: Kat
I do not see that time will end when Christ returns.  It seems that those Scripture are talking about this church age ending.  Then there will be ages to come, therefore time must go on through the ages.

Not trying to argue, rather observe logically...  ;)

How do you explain the LAST DAY?  For if there is a LAST DAY, which CHRIST noted TWICE... then this necessitates that NO OTHER DAYS follow... otherwise the SCRIPTURE is broken... for if other DAYS follow, then the "LAST DAY" never occured...

Quote from: Kat
Eph 2:7  so that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.


Who is to say or name the LENGTHS of AGES Kat?  An age can be as little as a moment or as much as centuries... How are we to determine that MANY AGES shall not occur between CHRIST's words [made via Paul - Eph 2:7] and the LAST DAY?

I noticed in Ray's writing below, that even he is not sure that TIME shall end or continue... which means he is not necessarily settled in this observation... However... if there IS a LAST DAY... then TIME, as I have already broken down, has to END...

One other thing I would like you to consider... and that is that ETERNITY has no Beginning or Ending, ...what place has TIME in such a scenario?  For TIME is ALL ABOUT "beginnings and endings"?

Quote from: Kat
I not so sure that because time had a beginning, it must also have an ending.  The physical creation seems to be based on time.  So if time ended, wouldn't the creation end also?

TIME DEFINITELY and SURELY had a beginning for PRIOR to the FIRST DAY, there were no "DAYS" otherwise, the FIRST DAY Could not have been named, the FIRST DAY!

The PHYSICAL Creation WILL END... for it ALL becomes a NEW CREATION... which is SPIRITUAL... when YHVH becomes ALL in ALL (1 Cor 15:28)  YHVH is SPIRIT... and upon His PERMEATION of ALL THINGS, it is logical to conclude that ALL things become as IS HE... which is SPIRIT...

Quote from: Kat
Maybe the "eon of the eons" means there will always be eons continually.

Eph 3:21 to Him be the glory in the ecclesia and in Christ Jesus for all the generations of the eon of the eons! Amen!

And "maybe" it does NOT mean this!  ;)

Quote from: Kat
Here is an email from Ray.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2123.0.html -----

Dear Jeffrey:

I am not so sure that time ever ceases to exist. The "eons" of time cease to exist, but time itself may never cease. I have seen lately that dictionaries totally contradict their own definitions of eternal and eternity.  I will write a new paper in the near future entitled "RETHINKING ETERNITY" [Does time cease at the consummation of the eons?].

God be with you,
Ray 

IMO... Ray is on the cusp of BEING SURE... that our ETERNAL God IS the CONSUMATION of ALL THINGS tainted by SIN which are found in the created, REALM of TIME...

ETERNITY is NOT a "created" entity... it ALWAYS IS...

TIME, in my observation is simply a quarantined [isolated] and IMPERFECT (still being created/completed) entity in which GOD is GIVING His Children the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL, ...by EXPERIENCE...  Set aside from Eternity, for this work... and separated from that which is NOT tainted... and PERFECT...

When TIME and ALL within it have reached COMPLETION, ...game over!  ALL which DIE in TIME are waiting REBIRTH in ETERNITY...

The Scripture says that GOD's WILL is done in HEAVEN (Eternity)... therefore NO EVIL is performed there, no SIN exists there, no DEATH exists there... In essence GOD's WILL is NOT TRANSGRESSED in ETERNITY... however... 

Here in TIME... ALL these things exist , where GOD's WILL is TRANSGRESSED... (evil/transgression of God's Will/sin/death)

It is said in Hebrews 2:11 that CHRIST was made PERFECT [complete] through SUFFERINGS... His "sufferings" were realized and endured, in TIME... (as are OURS)... when the SUFFERINGS which "make us COMPLETE" are ended, then TIME is no longer necessary... and ETERNITY which is TIME-LESS shall resume for us... for we have RETURNED from WHERE (eternity/God) we emerged...

Quote from: Kat
I'm looking forward to see what Ray has to say about 'Rethinking Eternity.'

mercy, peace and love
Kat

As am I Kat... as am I...  ;)  I check his site DAILY, always interested in reading his latest thoughts...

Notice... he is "RETHINKING" Eternity... which says to me that GOD is revealing another view of it to Ray, which is DIFFERENT than the one he has held in the past...

When a premise is "rethought", it is brought under NEW SCRUTINY...  ;)

peaCe...

In  JESUS ...willieH  ;D
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: I asked an expert!
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2007, 05:23:15 PM »

Hi WillieH

You ask about the "last day"...For me that would be the last day of that age. The last day of the decade. The last day of puberty. The last day of the teen teenager. Not meaning the last day of the life of the teen teenager but the last day of that era.

As for Christ, did you refer to Christ as not knowing? ...if so...then re consider Ray's latest teachings that Christ knows all that the Father knows and that the Father keeps nothing from the Son because unto Him is given All Things by the Father which will be returned to the Father by Christ and then God will be all in all.

If you are referring to Ray not being sure if time will or will not end, then sorry, I do not know where or how or why you have come to this conclusion.  I agree that time has no correspondence with eternity as evidenced and taught by Ray and noted by the excerpts posted from his conference transcripts.

As to the "first day" proving to be the "first day" again, I look to the meaning of aionian as age not absolute as in first and last limited thinking. Who knows what came before the first day. The scriptures are silent.

Where you quote Ray as saying that he is not sure, I do not see this to mean that Ray is NOT SURE but that Ray offers the alternative to this limited frame of mind and answers with the insight that is unveiling the deeper truths that God is revealing and not error of previous thinking. Quite a difference don't you think :)

Peace be to you

Arcturus :)


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hillsbororiver

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Re: I asked an expert!
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2007, 05:49:21 PM »


However... if there IS a LAST DAY... then TIME, as I have already broken down, has to END...


Hi Willie,

I am not so sure about that, what is it that separates days? Of course it is the night or perhaps in this scenario a better word may be darkness.

The last Day could very well mean that night (darkness) will never follow it, that the Light of God the Father and His Son are All in All where we are never to see darkness (night) again!

The last day may never end.

His Peace to you,

Joe 
« Last Edit: December 20, 2007, 05:51:55 PM by hillsbororiver »
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: I asked an expert!
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2007, 06:24:04 PM »

A glorious response Joe. In fact there are scriptures to authenticate what you observe!

Rev 22 : 5 And there shall be no more night; they have no need for lamplight or sunlight, for the Lord God will illuminate them and be their light, and they shall reign (aionian!) through the eternities...(could that mean through God the Father and Son plural? ...perhaps... :)

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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willieH

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Re: I asked an expert!
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2007, 02:44:50 AM »

willieH: Hi Arcturus...  ;)

Hi WillieH

You ask about the "last day"...For me that would be the last day of that age.

But that is NOT what CHRIST said... we must take Him at His WORD without adding any thoughts to those WORDS... CHRIST spoke of the "end of the age"... In Matt 28:20... So He displayed by this example, that when He meant to say AGE, ...He SAID "age"...

This is NOT the case in either John 6:44 OR John 12:48 which are the 2 places He mentioned the LAST DAY... the word AGE is absent in both of these verses... And in both places, the context is not speaking of the consumation or "end" of an AGE...

Quote
The last day of the decade. The last day of puberty. The last day of the teen teenager. Not meaning the last day of the life of the teen teenager but the last day of that era.


These are true statements Arc... but notice in your "last day" examples... other words following "last day" DEFINED what the "last day" was, i.e. decade, puberty, teenager... 

But this is NOT the CASE in what CHRIST was speaking of... He was talking about RESURRECTION, and JUDGMENT in these 2 verses, and no other words followed His mention of the LAST DAY... which may have further defined what "LAST DAY" He was speaking of...  He STOPPED at LAST DAY, no further words... and IN that LAST DAY, was contained RESURRECTION and JUDGMENT!

So we are left with this...  He said, what He said, ...without adding words to what He said...

He was giving a picture of the END... End of what?  END of TIME...  :)  And at the END of TIME shall the RESURRECTION and JUDGMENT take place.

RESURRECTION is the DEATH of DEATH... and JUDGMENT is REVEALING and CONSUMATION of EVIL found within ALL men... These events are to occur on and during the LAST DAY... these verses do NOT say LAST DAY "of the AGE", so we cannot ASSUME it to be referring to an "AGE"...  CHRIST just said LAST DAY... period!

Quote
As for Christ, did you refer to Christ as not knowing? ...if so...then re consider Ray's latest teachings that Christ knows all that the Father knows and that the Father keeps nothing from the Son because unto Him is given All Things by the Father which will be returned to the Father by Christ and then God will be all in all.


 ???  I am not sure what you are referring to... I didn't mention that CHRIST did not "know" something... CHRIST has access to ALL KNOWLEDGE... we do not...

Quote
If you are referring to Ray not being sure if time will or will not end, then sorry, I do not know where or how or why you have come to this conclusion.
 

I quoted where it was stated that RAY had said this:

Quote from: Kat
Here is an email from Ray.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2123.0.html -----

Dear Jeffrey:

I am not so sure that time ever ceases to exist. The "eons" of time cease to exist, but time itself may never cease. I have seen lately that dictionaries totally contradict their own definitions of eternal and eternity.  I will write a new paper in the near future entitled "RETHINKING ETERNITY" [Does time cease at the consummation of the eons?].

God be with you,
Ray


RAY here is saying he is "NOT SO SURE that time ever ceases to exist"... He also says "time itself MAY never cease" ...these two statements say to me, that he is either NOT SETTLED on this matter, or QUESTIONS have arised in his observation of TIME and ETERNITY, and the involvments they will or will NOT have, forward of this LIFE... which concerns itself with TIME...

Quote
As to the "first day" proving to be the "first day" again, I look to the meaning of aionian as age not absolute as in first and last limited thinking. Who knows what came before the first day. The scriptures are silent.



I dont agree the Scriptures are silent... JESUS said:  BEFORE Abraham [member of time] was [element of time] ...I AM... [member of ETERNITY]

CHRIST was not just saying here that He preceeded Abraham... He was laying a definitive line between HIMSELF and ALL the FINITE members of TIME... including TIME itself, for THE WORD (CHRIST) spoke into existence the FIRST DAY and all that was found within it... preceeding the FIRST DAY, and ALL that was found within it! ...Col 1:17 - He is BEFORE ALL things...

Just as Ray has noted where God states, that He is the GOD of Abraham, Issac and Jacob... does not limit GOD to just those 3 persons... He is the GOD of ALL...

There were NO DAYS (time) prior to the FIRST DAY, otherwise, the FIRST DAY was NOT the FIRST DAY...

Quote
Where you quote Ray as saying that he is not sure, I do not see this to mean that Ray is NOT SURE but that Ray offers the alternative to this limited frame of mind and answers with the insight that is unveiling the deeper truths that God is revealing and not error of previous thinking. Quite a difference don't you think :)

I don't see that REVELATION means one was in ERROR... and I did not infer this... ONE that is VEILED in ANY SPIRITUAL vision, just does not "see" the TRUTH... and FAITHFULLY abides in what he sees... continuing to SEEK the light... and waiting upon its further REVELATION...

I guess we'll have to wait and see what RAY's upcoming paper "RETHINKING ETERNITY", actually encompasses... instead of speculating one way or the other...

GOD has CONCLUDED ALL in UNBELIEF... and His Complete LIGHT is NOT REVEALED to anyone... it is given to each, to be known and taught, as it fits according to HIS PURPOSE... 

I believe THAT is what RAY, and any other SEEKING believer does...

Quote
Peace be to you

Arcturus :)

And to you dear Arc...  ;)

peaCe...

In  JESUS ...willieH  ;D
« Last Edit: December 22, 2007, 08:46:58 PM by willieH »
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willieH

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Re: I asked an expert!
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2007, 03:20:44 AM »

willieH: Hi Joe!  Peace me bratha!  ;D


However... if there IS a LAST DAY... then TIME, as I have already broken down, has to END...


Hi Willie,

I am not so sure about that, what is it that separates days? Of course it is the night or perhaps in this scenario a better word may be darkness.

The "DAY" (as in "FIRST" DAY, as in LAST "DAY") consists of both the EVENING and MORNING portions...  The notation of the Creations of TIME's "DAYS", includes both of these portions...  There was DAY and EVENING, even before there was "daylight" to be separate from "night", ...for the Sun, Moon and stars were not CREATED until the 4th "day"... and their purposes were stated in part to DIVIDE the "day" from the "night" (Gen 1:14)

Quote
The last Day could very well mean that night (darkness) will never follow it, that the Light of God the Father and His Son are All in All where we are never to see darkness (night) again!

The last day may never end.

I question this bro... if the LAST DAY ...began... and ETERNITY has no BEGINNINGS or ENDINGS... then something (last day which "began", but "never ends"), would be a PRESENT entity, in ETERNITY which IS NOT ETERNAL!  For though it "never ends"... it certainly "began"...

If YHVH is to be ALL IN ALL... and HE is WITHOUT Beginning or Ending... then ALL which HE is IN, ...have to bear that same characteristic... being WITHOUT BEGINNING or ENDING...

Next you might say:  "Hey willie... what about us?  Did WE not have a beginning, and yet will be in ETERNITY?"

Glad you asked Joe!  ;D 

My answer to "your"  :D question is:  We have ALWAYS BEEN... we each had a beginning and ending IN TIME, but we each have EMERGED from GOD who is ETERNAL, and therefore WE have ALWAYS BEEN, in HIM... for we emerged FROM HIM...

GOD changes NOT (Mal 3:6 / Heb 13:8)... so in order for us to EVER be IN HIM, we have ALWAYS been IN HIM, or it requires that HE DOES indeed CHANGE... for that CHANGE is that, ...WE who were NOT in HIM, ...now ARE in HIM... which constitutes CHANGE...

GOD speaking to Job about the foundation of the World... asked Job... "where wast THOU when I laid the foundations of the earth?  DECLARE, ...IF, thou hast UNDERSTANDING"... (vs 38:4)

JOB of course had no recollection of this, and neither do we, ...SIN separates us from that "RECOLLECTION"...

But the ETERNAL WORD of GOD states that... ALL (not just some of) the SONS of GOD were shouting for JOY... 

THESE were NOT ANGELS... as Christian TRADITION mistakenly supposes... the word translated "SONS" in this verse is BEN... just do a little research on this word... it NEVER means ANGEL... it ALWAYS refers to SONS...  (#1121 Strongs)... Read Job 1:2,4,6,13... same word as is used in Job 38:7 - BEN = SONS...

It is the central and CONTINUOUSLY used word in reference to SONS in ALL Hebrew Geneologies... Look for yourself!

MALAK is the word which means ANGEL...  If GOD meant to say ANGELS here in Job 38:7, He would have DONE SO by using the word MALAK, ...BUT, ...He DID NOT... He used the word BEN, which means - SONS...

Job 38:7   ...when the morning stars sang together, and ...ALL... the SONS [ben] of GOD shouted for joy...


peaCe brother Joe...

In  JESUS ...willieH  ;D
« Last Edit: December 21, 2007, 04:51:37 AM by willieH »
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: I asked an expert!
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2007, 10:33:08 AM »

Hi Willie,

Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

This does not say once again lived or continued to live. The opinions you stated are diametrically opposed to what is taught on Bible Truths, especially your take on "eternal." Please read the following articles before continuing down this path. Remember this Forum is not a debating Forum but a discussion Forum based on the teachings of Ray Smith not on conflicting opinions or theories any of us may (and do) have.

We have seen and experienced this debating of ideas here and in other Forums and it never seems to end well, only in confusion and strife.

Please check these out;

http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm

http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html

Peace,

Joe

P.S. From The Rules of The Forum;

THE IMPORTANT STUFF:

If you are considering joining this forum before reading and studying  www.bible-truths.com, please reconsider.
It would be beneficial to all involved if you take the time to familiarize yourself with the teaching of L.Ray Smith first.

This is not the place to decide if you agree with the teaching of L.Ray Smith, but a place you can retreat to when you do.

This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship, and secondarily to discuss and question what they learn on bible-truths.com.

If you seriously disagree with Ray, please email him directly.

If you come here to teach us, please take your teaching elsewhere.

THIS FORUM IS NOT TO BE USED TO DEBATE RELIGIOUS TOPICS

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3.0.html
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chuckt

  • Guest
Re: I asked an expert!
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2007, 09:42:05 AM »

Quote
In modern Greek aionios means eternal

Words many times change what they mean over time.

Dennis


yup its called babel :P
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