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I asked an expert!
willieH:
willieH: Hi Arcturus... ;)
--- Quote from: Arcturus on December 20, 2007, 02:23:15 PM ---Hi WillieH
You ask about the "last day"...For me that would be the last day of that age.
--- End quote ---
But that is NOT what CHRIST said... we must take Him at His WORD without adding any thoughts to those WORDS... CHRIST spoke of the "end of the age"... In Matt 28:20... So He displayed by this example, that when He meant to say AGE, ...He SAID "age"...
This is NOT the case in either John 6:44 OR John 12:48 which are the 2 places He mentioned the LAST DAY... the word AGE is absent in both of these verses... And in both places, the context is not speaking of the consumation or "end" of an AGE...
--- Quote --- The last day of the decade. The last day of puberty. The last day of the teen teenager. Not meaning the last day of the life of the teen teenager but the last day of that era.
--- End quote ---
These are true statements Arc... but notice in your "last day" examples... other words following "last day" DEFINED what the "last day" was, i.e. decade, puberty, teenager...
But this is NOT the CASE in what CHRIST was speaking of... He was talking about RESURRECTION, and JUDGMENT in these 2 verses, and no other words followed His mention of the LAST DAY... which may have further defined what "LAST DAY" He was speaking of... He STOPPED at LAST DAY, no further words... and IN that LAST DAY, was contained RESURRECTION and JUDGMENT!
So we are left with this... He said, what He said, ...without adding words to what He said...
He was giving a picture of the END... End of what? END of TIME... :) And at the END of TIME shall the RESURRECTION and JUDGMENT take place.
RESURRECTION is the DEATH of DEATH... and JUDGMENT is REVEALING and CONSUMATION of EVIL found within ALL men... These events are to occur on and during the LAST DAY... these verses do NOT say LAST DAY "of the AGE", so we cannot ASSUME it to be referring to an "AGE"... CHRIST just said LAST DAY... period!
--- Quote ---As for Christ, did you refer to Christ as not knowing? ...if so...then re consider Ray's latest teachings that Christ knows all that the Father knows and that the Father keeps nothing from the Son because unto Him is given All Things by the Father which will be returned to the Father by Christ and then God will be all in all.
--- End quote ---
??? I am not sure what you are referring to... I didn't mention that CHRIST did not "know" something... CHRIST has access to ALL KNOWLEDGE... we do not...
--- Quote ---If you are referring to Ray not being sure if time will or will not end, then sorry, I do not know where or how or why you have come to this conclusion.
--- End quote ---
I quoted where it was stated that RAY had said this:
--- Quote from: Kat ---Here is an email from Ray.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2123.0.html -----
Dear Jeffrey:
I am not so sure that time ever ceases to exist. The "eons" of time cease to exist, but time itself may never cease. I have seen lately that dictionaries totally contradict their own definitions of eternal and eternity. I will write a new paper in the near future entitled "RETHINKING ETERNITY" [Does time cease at the consummation of the eons?].
God be with you,
Ray
--- End quote ---
RAY here is saying he is "NOT SO SURE that time ever ceases to exist"... He also says "time itself MAY never cease" ...these two statements say to me, that he is either NOT SETTLED on this matter, or QUESTIONS have arised in his observation of TIME and ETERNITY, and the involvments they will or will NOT have, forward of this LIFE... which concerns itself with TIME...
--- Quote ---As to the "first day" proving to be the "first day" again, I look to the meaning of aionian as age not absolute as in first and last limited thinking. Who knows what came before the first day. The scriptures are silent.
--- End quote ---
I dont agree the Scriptures are silent... JESUS said: BEFORE Abraham [member of time] was [element of time] ...I AM... [member of ETERNITY]
CHRIST was not just saying here that He preceeded Abraham... He was laying a definitive line between HIMSELF and ALL the FINITE members of TIME... including TIME itself, for THE WORD (CHRIST) spoke into existence the FIRST DAY and all that was found within it... preceeding the FIRST DAY, and ALL that was found within it! ...Col 1:17 - He is BEFORE ALL things...
Just as Ray has noted where God states, that He is the GOD of Abraham, Issac and Jacob... does not limit GOD to just those 3 persons... He is the GOD of ALL...
There were NO DAYS (time) prior to the FIRST DAY, otherwise, the FIRST DAY was NOT the FIRST DAY...
--- Quote ---Where you quote Ray as saying that he is not sure, I do not see this to mean that Ray is NOT SURE but that Ray offers the alternative to this limited frame of mind and answers with the insight that is unveiling the deeper truths that God is revealing and not error of previous thinking. Quite a difference don't you think :)
--- End quote ---
I don't see that REVELATION means one was in ERROR... and I did not infer this... ONE that is VEILED in ANY SPIRITUAL vision, just does not "see" the TRUTH... and FAITHFULLY abides in what he sees... continuing to SEEK the light... and waiting upon its further REVELATION...
I guess we'll have to wait and see what RAY's upcoming paper "RETHINKING ETERNITY", actually encompasses... instead of speculating one way or the other...
GOD has CONCLUDED ALL in UNBELIEF... and His Complete LIGHT is NOT REVEALED to anyone... it is given to each, to be known and taught, as it fits according to HIS PURPOSE...
I believe THAT is what RAY, and any other SEEKING believer does...
--- Quote ---Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
--- End quote ---
And to you dear Arc... ;)
peaCe...
In JESUS ...willieH ;D
willieH:
willieH: Hi Joe! Peace me bratha! ;D
--- Quote from: willieH on December 20, 2007, 01:49:07 PM ---
However... if there IS a LAST DAY... then TIME, as I have already broken down, has to END...
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on December 20, 2007, 02:49:21 PM ---Hi Willie,
I am not so sure about that, what is it that separates days? Of course it is the night or perhaps in this scenario a better word may be darkness.
--- End quote ---
The "DAY" (as in "FIRST" DAY, as in LAST "DAY") consists of both the EVENING and MORNING portions... The notation of the Creations of TIME's "DAYS", includes both of these portions... There was DAY and EVENING, even before there was "daylight" to be separate from "night", ...for the Sun, Moon and stars were not CREATED until the 4th "day"... and their purposes were stated in part to DIVIDE the "day" from the "night" (Gen 1:14)
--- Quote ---The last Day could very well mean that night (darkness) will never follow it, that the Light of God the Father and His Son are All in All where we are never to see darkness (night) again!
The last day may never end.
--- End quote ---
I question this bro... if the LAST DAY ...began... and ETERNITY has no BEGINNINGS or ENDINGS... then something (last day which "began", but "never ends"), would be a PRESENT entity, in ETERNITY which IS NOT ETERNAL! For though it "never ends"... it certainly "began"...
If YHVH is to be ALL IN ALL... and HE is WITHOUT Beginning or Ending... then ALL which HE is IN, ...have to bear that same characteristic... being WITHOUT BEGINNING or ENDING...
Next you might say: "Hey willie... what about us? Did WE not have a beginning, and yet will be in ETERNITY?"
Glad you asked Joe! ;D
My answer to "your" :D question is: We have ALWAYS BEEN... we each had a beginning and ending IN TIME, but we each have EMERGED from GOD who is ETERNAL, and therefore WE have ALWAYS BEEN, in HIM... for we emerged FROM HIM...
GOD changes NOT (Mal 3:6 / Heb 13:8)... so in order for us to EVER be IN HIM, we have ALWAYS been IN HIM, or it requires that HE DOES indeed CHANGE... for that CHANGE is that, ...WE who were NOT in HIM, ...now ARE in HIM... which constitutes CHANGE...
GOD speaking to Job about the foundation of the World... asked Job... "where wast THOU when I laid the foundations of the earth? DECLARE, ...IF, thou hast UNDERSTANDING"... (vs 38:4)
JOB of course had no recollection of this, and neither do we, ...SIN separates us from that "RECOLLECTION"...
But the ETERNAL WORD of GOD states that... ALL (not just some of) the SONS of GOD were shouting for JOY...
THESE were NOT ANGELS... as Christian TRADITION mistakenly supposes... the word translated "SONS" in this verse is BEN... just do a little research on this word... it NEVER means ANGEL... it ALWAYS refers to SONS... (#1121 Strongs)... Read Job 1:2,4,6,13... same word as is used in Job 38:7 - BEN = SONS...
It is the central and CONTINUOUSLY used word in reference to SONS in ALL Hebrew Geneologies... Look for yourself!
MALAK is the word which means ANGEL... If GOD meant to say ANGELS here in Job 38:7, He would have DONE SO by using the word MALAK, ...BUT, ...He DID NOT... He used the word BEN, which means - SONS...
Job 38:7 ...when the morning stars sang together, and ...ALL... the SONS [ben] of GOD shouted for joy...
peaCe brother Joe...
In JESUS ...willieH ;D
hillsbororiver:
Hi Willie,
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
This does not say once again lived or continued to live. The opinions you stated are diametrically opposed to what is taught on Bible Truths, especially your take on "eternal." Please read the following articles before continuing down this path. Remember this Forum is not a debating Forum but a discussion Forum based on the teachings of Ray Smith not on conflicting opinions or theories any of us may (and do) have.
We have seen and experienced this debating of ideas here and in other Forums and it never seems to end well, only in confusion and strife.
Please check these out;
http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html
Peace,
Joe
P.S. From The Rules of The Forum;
THE IMPORTANT STUFF:
If you are considering joining this forum before reading and studying www.bible-truths.com, please reconsider.
It would be beneficial to all involved if you take the time to familiarize yourself with the teaching of L.Ray Smith first.
This is not the place to decide if you agree with the teaching of L.Ray Smith, but a place you can retreat to when you do.
This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship, and secondarily to discuss and question what they learn on bible-truths.com.
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If you come here to teach us, please take your teaching elsewhere.
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http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3.0.html
chuckt:
--- Quote from: Dennis Vogel on December 03, 2007, 06:27:11 PM ---
--- Quote ---In modern Greek aionios means eternal
--- End quote ---
Words many times change what they mean over time.
Dennis
--- End quote ---
yup its called babel :P
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