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Author Topic: When was Adam created???  (Read 7922 times)

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gmik

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When was Adam created???
« on: December 05, 2007, 09:32:42 PM »

I can't remember reading anything about this on the forum.

While reading the transcripts from the conference (thanks Kat), Ray talks about historical time lines and such.

I am just wondering why most people go back only to 4,000 BC or so.  It seems pretty routine to read about finding pottery and housing and such that go back to at least 10,000 BC.

My classes history book (4th grade) says that nomadic tribes wandered across Asia to the land bridge known as Beringia (Bering strait) and just kept wandering down all of North and South America as early as 10,000BC.

I have no problem w/ that IF we can say that Adam was created before then.

So, would it be apostasy to challenge that 4000 year date??

PS  As a public school teacher I always tell my class..."Well, thats what our book says BUT I believe the Bible and the Bible says....".  I do that all the time.  Just wondered if I should do it for Beringia too :D






























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hillsbororiver

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Re: When was Adam created???
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2007, 10:01:27 PM »

Hi Gena,

Ray touches on this subject a bit (as he did when we were in Nashville) in this last (Dec. '07) Bible Study;
 
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2641.msg19809.html#msg19809

As far as how did this 6000 year old earth theory come into existence, back in the 1650's an Irish bishop named James Ussher studied the genealogies in the Old Testament. By doing so he calculated that the earth was created in 4004 B.C.

More on him here;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Ussher

This is to be the big topic at the next Nashville Conference but I know I am not speculating that Ray will present some very convincing scriptural and scientific evidence that the world is much older than the mainstream churches claim.

His Peace to you and yours, we look forward to seeing you again in Nashville!

Joe


 
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musicman

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Re: When was Adam created???
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2007, 10:24:57 PM »

The question posed is a good one and doesn't have very much to do with the age of the earth.  The question concerns the age of modern man.  I believe that I may have found a hint in the early chronologies that they had gaps (probably quite large ones).  There is definately a problem with evidence if one insists that Adam was created 6000 years ago.  This is a problem, at least with the people already existing in the Americas and Australia when Eropeans migrated to these places.  The American land bridge existed at least 10,000 years ago.  I'm not sure when Australia had such a crossing.  Perhaps these people were transported by the Love Boat.
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Sorin

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Re: When was Adam created???
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2007, 11:34:08 PM »

These are just my thoughts. So I'm not arguing them as if they are facts, just my speculation on things.

I have a feeling that Ray will probably say something similar to this on the next conference, or I could be totally wrong.   ;D
But either way, here goes:

I think the reason the Dinosaurs became extinct, why they had to die, was because God wanted to create mankind. I mean; how can humans survive with giant lizards roaming about? Especially the primitive humans. Thus the Dinosaurs had to go. In Genesis we do read that God created animals first, and we know that those are not literal 24 hour days., but a 'day' could represent thousands, if not millions of years. So, even though it doesn't specifically say it, I think God created the Dinosaurs way before man, and killed off the Dinosaurs when it was the time for mankind to be created.

What are your thoughts on this?

Oh, and Gena.... I believe Adam lived way longer than 4,000 years ago, because the earth is way older than 6,000 years.


Peace,

Sorin

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Kat

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Re: When was Adam created???
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2007, 11:37:47 AM »


Hi Gena,

I think there is a pretty tight timeline of about 6000 years since Adams.  The reason is because Ray went over this at the conference about how there was a book that Adam passed down.  So the lives of those people that had this book would have overlapped for it to reach Moses.

Transcript of audio 3
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.0.html ------

There already apparently existed histories and genealogies of creation, Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham and Jacob’s children. 
v
Gen 5:1  This is the book [Heb.- writing, register, scroll, BOOK] of the generations of Adam.  In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

Moses had a book, he didn’t write it, he had it.  Where did he get it?  Well undoubtedly Adam had it, and God gave Adam material.  God taught Adam a language, Adam knew how to read and write, he had a language and vocabulary. 
How though, do we get this from Adam to Moses?  Well it’s not as difficult as you might think.  Now if these were the earliest records or books that some race processed, don’t you think they were kind of valuable!
v
v
Now Adam did not canonize any Bible.  Moses was the first.  How did Moses get these books?  Well it’s not as hard as you may think.  Methuselah born in 3254 BC, knew his great, great, great, great grandfather Adam (who died in 3011) for 243 years before he died.  This is interesting stuff.  These dates are estimates of course.  Noah (born 2885) was 600 years old when the flood came and Methuselah died in the year of the flood.  So Noah had already known Methuselah 600 years. 
If Methuselah got these books from Adam, whom he knew for 243 years, then he could have easily passed these on to Noah.  Whom he had known for 600 years and then Noah would bring them through the flood.  It’s no other way books are going to survive a flood, they had to be brought on the ark. 
----------------------------------------------

Here is a timeline from a Bible study this year.  You can see the overlaps of the lives of Adam and Methuselah and then Noah.  It appears that Noah lived at the time of Abraham, then Isaac and Jacob and then it goes to Joseph which brings us to Moses.

Adam and Eve                                              4000- BC

Methuselah is born                                        3250-

Adam dies - age 930                                      3000+

Noah is born                                                 2885

Noah's flood - 969
Methuselah dies in the year of the flood             2285

Babel - languages confused                              2150+

Abram/Abraham born                                       1995

Noah dies at age                                   
(lived 500 pre and post flood)                           1936

Sodom and cities burned                                  1900-

1st son Isaac born                                          1895

Jacob and Esau born                                        1835

Famine ends in Egypt                                       1700

Israel prospers in Egypt for 150 yrs                     1600

Israel slaves of Egypt for 175 yrs                        1450

Moses leads exodus                                          1275

Israel invades Canaan - walls of Jericho fall           1234

Samson is born                                                 1090   

David born in Bethlehem                                     1034

Saul first king of Israel                                       1025

David king of Israel                                            1000+

David dies age 69                                              965

Solomon rules - 1st Temple built                           965-925

Elijah and Baal priests                                         860+

Israel falls to Assyria
Isaiah prophesies                                               700

Judah taken by Babylon Temple burned                   600-
Ezekiel, Daniel, Jeremaih                                       

Zechariah calls for new Temple                              520

Worship restored by Malachi, Ezra and Nehemiah       450

Temple built in Samaria                                         333

Septuagint: The Law from Hebrew to Greek              250

Rome rules Judah                                                  64

Herod the Great is made king of the Jews
rebuilds the Temple                                               37

Jesus is born                                                        4-3

resurrection                                                         30 AD
         
mercy, peace and love
Kat

p.s. Sorin, there is a hint about the dinosaurs in audio 7 that I'm working on now.  It seems there were dinosaurs in the world since Adam  8)       
             

                                                             
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eggi

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Re: When was Adam created???
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2007, 03:58:09 PM »

Hi all,

Was man created 6000 years ago? That's 4000 years after the Neolithic agricultural revolution according to scientists. I don't know what to believe. Really, I don't have a clue. Creationists say that the earth's atmosphere composed differently before the flood, and this gives a wrong dating of everything which was pre-flood. Is there a mention of this in the Bible? The only thing I know is that I don't want to say anything definitive about this subject, simply because I do not know. I feel however, that Ray is onto something, and I can't wait to hear what he has to say.


God bless you,
Eirik
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UncleBeau

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Re: When was Adam created???
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2007, 05:20:00 PM »

Concerning the dinosaurs, and this is just pure thought on the matter: How do you think the Earth was cultivated before mankind? Plant eaters to prune and aerate the soil....Meat eaters to fertilize the land.....Dinosaurs in the oceans to filter the waters... They were designed perfectly to get the earth ready for mankind to take our place in the timeline. Lie I said, just a thought.
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Craig

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Re: When was Adam created???
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2007, 05:50:04 PM »

Quote
They were designed perfectly to get the earth ready for mankind to take our place in the timeline

And then destroy it.......... :-\
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gmik

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Re: When was Adam created???
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2007, 08:15:26 PM »

Thanks for the replies.

There has to be SOMETHING that is only now being revealed or has been hidden and still is....bcz...(and other than Eggi & Sorin,) the fact of all the "proof" of older civilizations hasn't been addressed.

In the above timeline, in Kats post, parallel things in the world was going on. "they" have "proof" of civilizations before 4,000BC.  Where did the cities come from that Cain went into? I don't think you can have true cities in just Cains lifetime. Is this truly just a parable?? AAAHHHH I know I have too many questions.  But we all rejoice when science proves the Bible. I want to rejoice also when the Bible says something that is up against what science says is irrefutable.

I am not trying to debate, but I would like some help to get a handle on this.

Thanks all so much!
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musicman

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Re: When was Adam created???
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2007, 12:58:34 AM »

Most credible scientists don't put the dawn of modern man much past 50,000 years ago.  I think Ray said something like that.  I agree with him.


Good science must correspond with real Scripture.
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indianabob

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Re: When was Adam created???
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2007, 02:39:11 AM »

GENA,

One of the things I learned in college in 1960 was that the land bridge theory became accepted because there was no other way for pioneers from China or Japan or Russia to get to the new world.  The reason was that they didn't have any way to maintain a heading on a trackless ocean since the compass had not yet been invented.  This is just another example of educators being afraid to admit that anything that they didn't yet understand was possible and that actually they just didn't know how they could have made the crossing.

My answer then and now is that they didn't have outboard motors either, but that didn't stop them from rowing their canoes or hoisting a sail.  Pun intended. (smile)

One of the serious failings of educators is the arrogance to believe that they have all knowledge and that knowledge accumulates in sequential time frame.  Whereas the fact is that there really were no Neanderthals and no so called cave men who descended from lower animals.  To the contrary, most of our ancient ancestors were much smarter and inventive and courageous than present day society and were able to traverse great distances, living off of the land and the sea. If and when they were motivated so to do.

In fact since our ancestors were closer to the original, perfectly created duo, Adam and Eve, they had a much better chance of producing intelligent children than we do today.

The Bible never says that our ancestors were less intelligent, it only says that they were sinners and only evil continually.

My point is that science today NEEDS to believe that the ancient world was of great age, regardless of evidence to the contrary, because to believe otherwise would lead them to conclude that society is not making progress through science.

We are not becoming more intelligent through universal education, just more conformed to the culture that those in power would have us to believe.  Soon there will be a lap top computer in the hands of every child in the poorest nations of starving Africa and they will be able to communicate with those of us in the richest nation of the world and yet truth will be so rare as to be rejected by the great majority.  But that will be O. K. because we all can celebrate Santa Claus Day and send email Hallmark cards to prove 'we cared enough to send the very best'.

Does anyone recognize that the computer was invented by God and not by man?  Does anyone realize that the computer or other forms of communication are available solely because God gave the understanding of electrical power control to a few persistent inventors and that the wide spread use of computers is available only because the rich American and European and Oriental market made it feasible?  We waste more money on computers and sending pictures of ourselves in one year than we spend on feeding the needy in ten years or more.

Maybe this is God's plan to let every eye see what God will do in the near future when God's son arrives back on the home planet.

Does anyone really believe what our Bible says in Josh 10:12-14 regarding the long day?
Or the regression of the sun's shadow by ten degrees in 2Kings 20:10
Can God really stop and even reverse the rotation of the planet earth, just to honor the request of His servant?
Perhaps is it just a parable to make a certain point of spiritual significance.   I don't think so...   ???

The earth may be older than 10,000 years.  Human kind may be older than 6,000 years, but the real point is that creation didn't have to take millions of years.  Our God could have done it instantaneously if he chose to.  There is no limit to what God can do, that is what we need to focus on. 

Please excuse my rant.  I just like to critique popular science dogma that has been demonstrated questionable for decades.

By the way, the land bridge is only about 100 feet below sea level.  The bridge could have subsided due to an earth quake and have been above sea level a thousand years ago.  Or that area of the ocean could have been frozen solid 1000 years ago.  Who knows?  In either case, Columbus wasn't the first human on North America and Queen Isabella didn't have sovereign rights to the new world.  She should have gotten in line behind the real pioneers.

Thanks for reading with patience.  Indiana Bob

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Kat

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Re: When was Adam created???
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2007, 10:45:55 AM »


Hi Gena,

When you research dating of older civilizations, you run into a host of scientific articles the give dates way back for tens of thousands of years.  But one thing to consider is all of these scientist hold to the theory of evolution.  So the basis from which they draw their conclusions is flawed.
 
How do you sort through all this and get to the facts?  Well I can't, but Ray has been doing this kind of research for years.  I've heard him mention many books he's read.  So I think God is giving him the wisdom to come to the truth of this matter, as with many other truths. 
He is into a huge study now involving all of these type things, which he will bring what he has been given to the conference next year.  He indicates there will be some real eye openers  :o

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Dave UK

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Re: When was Adam created???
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2007, 10:10:36 AM »

Hi

Quote
In fact since our ancestors were closer to the original, perfectly created duo, Adam and Eve, they had a much better chance of producing intelligent children than we do today.

I'm not so sure that that is true although tradition states that they were perfect. Ray teaches that the scriptures suggest that they were far from perfection , hence their ability to sin.


With regards to Adam's creation we know not how long the sixth day actually lasted. Perhaps mankind was already being formed before Adam (I'm not talking apes here) during that sixth day,and that Adam was a point along the way to mankind being formed into the image of God.
Just pondering

Dave



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Dave UK

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Re: When was Adam created???
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2007, 10:39:34 AM »

Dave wrote

Quote
With regards to Adam's creation we know not how long the sixth day actually lasted. Perhaps mankind was already being formed before Adam (I'm not talking apes here) during that sixth day,and that Adam was a point along the way to mankind being formed into the image of God.

Have just re thought the above, it doesn't make a lot of sense as the scriptures suggest that Adam was created immortal who then because of his actions became mortal.

and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'
 YLT Gen 2:12


because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;
Rom 5:12


So it would appear that when the scriptures talk about an Adam they are clearly talking about an individual rather than a species.which was the train of thought I was going along.
cheers
Dave

Dave

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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: When was Adam created???
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2007, 12:52:37 PM »

Hello Dave

It is generally taught, believed and accepted that Adam and Eve were created in the image of God. This teaching is false to say the least. :D

Here from http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html quote :

IN THE BEGINNING/IN THE GARDEN

What was the first historically recorded choice of our first parents? We read of Mother Eve that:

"…she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat…" (Gen. 3:6).

But was this the first choice and the first sin attributed to our Mother Eve? No, it wasn’t the first. It was not even the second, or the third choice.

It is generally taught that Adam and Eve were spiritually perfect immediately after their creation, seeing that it says,

"And God saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very good…" (Gen. 1:31).

Never mind the fact that even poisonous snakes were also "very good." Of course everything God made was "good." It was, in fact, even "perfect"—perfect, that is, for the purpose for which it was created.

But did our first parents have perfect and good spiritual character of heart when God completed them? Absolutely not! Far from it! They were as carnal-minded as any two people who have ever lived.

The Scriptures show us that Eve committed every known category of sin there is, before she ever ate of the forbidden fruit. This one should knock your socks off. It knocked mine off when I first discovered it.

.
.
.
SIN BEGINS IN THE HEART

Man’s mind is not the birthplace of sin. And certainly man’s will is not the originator of sin. God did NOT say: "O that there were such a WILL in them..." (Deut. 5:29). If we will just believe, our Lord tells us plainly where sin originates:

"And Jesus said, Are ye [all of you] also yet without understanding?

Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever enters in at the mouth goes into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth FROM THE HEART; and they defile the man.

For out of THE HEART proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashed hands defiles not a man" (Matt. 15:16-20).

Need I remind any that all of the above thoughts and deeds are sin?

So what pray tell does all this stuff have to do with Mother Eve’s sin in the garden? A lot—everything. The Apostle John classifies all sins into just three categories under one heading.

LOVE NOT THE WORLD—THREE CATEGORIES OF SIN

"Love NOT the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father IS NOT IN HIM. For [for means ‘because’] ALL that is in the world,

the lust of the FLESH,

the lust of the EYES,

and the pride of LIFE,

is not of the Father, but is of the world.

And the world passes away, and the lust thereof: but he that does the will of God abides for ever" (I John 2:15-17).

Notice that "…ALL that is in the world…"—all the sins of the world, have their origin in one of these three categories of sin that proceeds "out of THE HEART." Not out of the "will" or out of the "mind," but "out of THE HEART." The "will" and the "mind" are subject to the "heart," and not the other way around. The heart is not subject to the will, neither is the heart subject to the mind, but rather both of these are subject to the birthplace of all human functions—the HEART!

Simply and unarguably, Jesus states as a fact, that all evil thoughts and sins proceed OUT OF THE HEART.

Now, with all that said, let’s prove once and for all that Mother Eve and Adam were (1) NOT spiritually perfect in any way shape or form, BEFORE they actually ate of the forbidden fruit, and (2) neither did they sin and then partake of the forbidden fruit through the operation of something called "free will."

"And when the woman saw that the tree was GOOD FOR FOOD… Gen. 3:6:

"…lust of the FLESH…" (I John 2:15)
 
and that it was PLEASANT TO THE EYES… Gen. 3:6:

"…lust of the EYES…" (I John 2:15)
 
and a tree to be DESIRED TO MAKE ONE WISE Gen. 3:6:

"…the PRIDE OF LIFE" (I John 2;15)

Eve committed EVERY CATEGORY OF SIN THERE IS IN THE WORLD, before… BEFORE she actually ate of the forbidden fruit.


Peace to you

Arcturus :)

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Dave UK

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Re: When was Adam created???
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2007, 04:00:11 PM »

Hi Arcturus

Quote
Eve committed EVERY CATEGORY OF SIN THERE IS IN THE WORLD, before… BEFORE she actually ate of the forbidden fruit.

You have answered a question that I have also been asking myself  'did Adam and Eve sin before they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil ' ?

However for all we know Eve might have been lusting after that tree perhaps for years before she partook of it. if so, why didn't she die at that point ?
I think it says in Ezekiel 'the soul that sins shall surely die' , the wages of sin etc.

However it seems that they only could know good and evil after they had partaken of the very forbidden thing that would give them that knowledge (as well as kill them) which seems a bit of a paradox in itself.
cheers
Dave


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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: When was Adam created???
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2007, 04:28:39 PM »

Hello Dave

We all die. The wages of sin that is death has not changed.

Heb 9:27 ...it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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M_Oliver

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Re: When was Adam created???
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2007, 07:14:08 PM »

However for all we know Eve might have been lusting after that tree perhaps for years before she partook of it. if so, why didn't she die at that point ?
I think it says in Ezekiel 'the soul that sins shall surely die' , the wages of sin etc.

Die how Dave?  And where does it say WHEN.  Ray's phrase "PAY ATTENTION TO THE WORDS" rings true everytime I get stumped or confused on any topic.

Mark
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Snowfire

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Re: When was Adam created???
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2007, 07:43:58 PM »

First the Physical death, then the Spiritual death.
And for those who are in the process of becoming God's Elect,
the process to Spiritual death has already begun.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2007, 11:53:30 PM by Snowfire »
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Dave UK

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Re: When was Adam created???
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2007, 08:00:11 PM »

Hi Mark
I'm not quite sure what you are meaning.

Quote
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.Gen 2:17


Quote
Eve committed EVERY CATEGORY OF SIN THERE IS IN THE WORLD, before… BEFORE she actually ate of the forbidden fruit.
Quote


Quote
Die how Dave?  And where does it say WHEN.  Ray's phrase "PAY ATTENTION TO THE WORDS" rings true everytime I get stumped or confused on any topic.

OK what am I missing

Dave







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