> General Discussions
In The Shadows
sonofone:
Ray speaks a lot about literal and spiritual.He also shares that that the bible doesn't mean what it says,but what it means.exp cutting off the offending arm or plucking out the eye.The fact that the bible is a big parable.
In Rays talk about the sabbath,he speaks about the literal physical keeping of rituals,such as lords supper,foot washing,baptism etc..Ray contends that these too are spiritual commands,not literal.
So I'm sure that the coming out of her my people has to be applied spiritually first,in fact I fail to see mass exodus as scriptural or profitable. I understand the desire to get away from the plagues if you will of the church,but what does that really mean.
If I were Paul or Timothy of today or in today's time would I stay away from the church altogether?Would I be content to serve God in the corners and shadows? Weren't they proponents of attracting believers to the church? Wasn't Timothy's job to elect elders to watch and care for the sheep?
I need help in understanding this practical application of coming out of her.
Deborah-Leigh:
I do not think we are to become timid, superstitious, cowardly, intimidated or holier than thou in coming out of her. As you observe sonofone this going from physical to spiritual is the path away from carnality towards obedience to Christ. This reminds me of the teaching on WORSHIP IN SPIRIT & TRUTH http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5312.0.html quote : But obedience, that is where it is at. Sometimes we come short, I know. But there is no doubt in my mind, that's what it’s all about, and I know what it’s all about.
I know if we go and look at the teachings surrounding the myth of Free Will we come to also realise that we can not even obey unless by the Grace of God ("Grace. Divine influence on our hearts." Ref http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5417.0.html)
Can we do anything Godly on our own? Of course not. Can we come out of Babylon or obey or worship God in a pleasing way to God? No.
So when we speak of any perceived instruction in the Scriptures, are they not shadows of how we will be made into the image of Christ when He has finished His work? I think so. Christ says "come out." We will. He also told Pharaoh to let his people go and like Pharaoh we to will go against what God says until such time as we receive the wisdom, knowledge and understanding by experience, that God knows best, He is Love and will not leave, loose or forsake His Creation. He will save it all. The process of God by which He is perfecting His creation, is interesting and worth studying.
I know I have come out of Babylon not because I do not attend Church services but because I do not attend or serve their teachings! Many are still in Babylon who no longer go to Church but believe they do their bit by watching TBN or paying in some money to redeem their souls. They are yet blind and as pointed out by Gregor, I too believe this is exactly in the Plan of God and will be all to His Glory. Being more knowledgeable is no guarantee of faithfulness. Only Christ has been proved Faithfull and True. We are all in the testing refining process.
It is one thing to receive the command to "Come out of Her" with all the warnings and quite another to obey through the Spirit, Wisdom, Council and Faith of Christ.
Working out our salvation with fear and trembling should show us where we are pinpointed in obedience and hence the fear and trembling. Non have made it to perfection except Christ Jesus. Missing the mark by the width of the great divide of the Grand Canyon or by a hairs breath, is still missing the mark. We fail one command and we fail all so we live by no laws, do's and don'ts, works, literal observations far from the heart of God, ( shadows ) and depend on all fulfillment of the law that is already won by, in and through Christ. This brings to mind Ray's talk on Repentance http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html
Like the parables perhaps this has simply underscored that Ray's teachings are also ONE teaching that is God's way of making us into His image.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
Chris R:
--- Quote from: sonofone on December 09, 2007, 04:58:55 AM ---Ray speaks a lot about literal and spiritual.He also shares that that the bible doesn't mean what it says,but what it means.exp cutting off the offending arm or plucking out the eye.The fact that the bible is a big parable.
In Rays talk about the sabbath,he speaks about the literal physical keeping of rituals,such as lords supper,foot washing,baptism etc..Ray contends that these too are spiritual commands,not literal.
So I'm sure that the coming out of her my people has to be applied spiritually first,in fact I fail to see mass exodus as scriptural or profitable. I understand the desire to get away from the plagues if you will of the church,but what does that really mean.
If I were Paul or Timothy of today or in today's time would I stay away from the church altogether?Would I be content to serve God in the corners and shadows? Weren't they proponents of attracting believers to the church? Wasn't Timothy's job to elect elders to watch and care for the sheep?
I need help in understanding this practical application of coming out of her.
--- End quote ---
Hi Sonofone
1Cr 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
It is in this order all things must come to pass. We do not posess any ability whatsoever to convince anyone of anything, nor can we save one single soul.
First the physical, then the spiritual, first come out "physically" then you can mature.
Why is it that we are told to "come out" ?
that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
They are crafty, they speak smooth things, and deceits, and before long, you will be partakers of her sins.
Peace
Chris R
sonofone:
I need for someone to help me balance out scripture that clearly teach and shoe the church gathering together,and being in fellowship with each other,versus this literal coming out of the assembly of believers.Heresy was prevalent even in the new testament church,yet no instruction to stop fellowshipping.I too want to come out of her,but what does that mean if we are to apply things spiritually,not physically?
Deborah-Leigh:
Hi sonofone
All excerpts from Ray's LOF series copied in blue font.
Notice that a gathering, assembly or congregation has a different meaning to what CHURCH means. Once you have seen this difference then notice there is a more refined difference between the Church and MY CHURCH which Jesus said HE would build.
John tells us that Satan has a "synagogue." Synagogue means "a gathering together, an assembly, a congregation." This should not sound strange to our ears, seeing that we have already learned from Paul’s writings:
"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed as into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the minister of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their work."
http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html
Just what is a "church?" Strong’s Greek Dictionary, #1570. ekklesia, a calling out. (1b) Ekklesia, from ek, "out of," and klesis, "a calling…" So the church is those whom God has CALLED OUT to be His "called out ones,"http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html
Can we not easily see the progression in how God uses these words? God first GATHERS all His people—there was a synagogue in every city. He then CALLS OUT a people (a church) from that huge gathering, and many others from among the Gentiles. He then INVITES many of the called out ones (from the Church) to be His True Followers. But in the end only those whom God SELECTS OUT of the INVITED, of the CALLED OUT, from the gathering of the whole ASSEMBLY will be in the First Resurrection to reign with Christ in the Kingdom of God. And thus we start with a huge number and end up with but a "FEW"! "For MANY are called [‘invited’ from the ‘called out’ church], but FEW are chosen" to reign with Christ as Judges, Priests, Lords, and Kings. (Matt. 22:14).http://bible-truths.com/lake11.html
NOT FORSAKING THE ASSEMBLING OF OURSELVES TOGETHER
In Hebrews 10:25 were are admonished as follows:
"Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as you see the day approaching."
That this is speaking of believers congregating together to worship and study God’s Word, there can be no doubt. However, there is a much deeper meaning to this "assembling" that few have ever seen. I never saw it myself until I read a paper by J. Preston Eby, entitled: "FORSAKE NOT THE ASSEMBLING."
I will quote an excerpt or two from his paper:
"The Greek word for ‘assembling’ is EPISUNAGOGE. The word, literally, is a verb meaning to synagogue. It is a compound of the Greek prefix EPI with the word SUNAGOGE from which we get our transliterated English word Synagogue. EPI means super – imposition – that which is above, higher than, highest, upon. SUNAGOGE means a meeting, assembly, or gathering. Putting these two words together, EPI-SUNAGOGE means THE ABOVE SYNAGOGUE, THE HIGHER MEETING, THE HIGHEST ASSEMBLY, THE HIGHER-THAN-ALL-GATHERINGS!
It bespeaks of something far greater than merely collecting so many breathing bodies together in one place.
It is a meeting in a higher realm, on a higher plane, in the high places of the Spirit, and in the heights of Truth. It is a gathering together in a dimension above. It indicates an assembling IN THE SPIRIT…"
(All Caps belong to Mr. Eby).http://bible-truths.com/lake11.html
During Jesus’ ministry, He spoke of "the" church and "My" church. There already existed "the church" (Matt. 18:17), at the very time that Jesus said He would build "MY CHURCH" (Matt. 16:18).
http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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