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Were Paul, Peter and James Perfect?

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hillsbororiver:
Just a few simple questions popped into my head.....

What do you think many of the people who came into contact, heard the teachings perhaps even were compelled to search their words think of the personalities of these men? What things might have been said about them and their students? Did they initially receive the message with joy and thankfulness but when a favorite belief of theirs came under fire decide that these so called teachers weren't so great after all? Aren't all believers given access to the same Spirit of Christ in equal measure?

Do you believe that every person that met them were enthralled and impressed? Did some perceive their words to be harsh and uncompromising? How about the students of the apostles, were they all things to all people at all times? Were intemperate statements made by some of the apostles and some of their students from time to time, or do we assume that once they were converted they walked the walk of perfection?

How would we ourselves have perceived these men, would we have demanded perfection (or at least our perception or understanding of perfection) out of them as we justified our own shortcomings? Would we judge them even as we were dismayed and put off by judgments they made in regard to others?

I guess the bottom line is what if we had had face to face contact with these men chosen of God, what would our opinion of them be if we saw not the idealized version we may have of them, but the real, in the flesh people that ate, breathed, dealt with conflict, needed to bathe, had to grind out a living, etc. what would we have thought about them then, especially if others who may have been more attractive, given to sweet compliments sought us out and stoked our egos rather than stoking our spirit?

Again, just some thoughts that were rolling about the brain of late.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
 

Deborah-Leigh:

Hello Joe

For me the answers are according to each as to their own beam in their own eye.  :D

To elaborate,  Jesus Christ we know, is The only One who did not have a beam in His eye and neither did He have a carnal mind. Non escape carnality until resurrection.  Deliverance from carnality can be accomplished only in resurrection by The Resurrection and The Life which is Jesus Christ. So this side of life non are sinless. Missing the mark of perfection I believe is how we are trained into dependence on Christ for His tried and tested Faithfulness. The inheritance of Christ is a share in what HE Won through His Victory given to Him by God and provided for by His desire to do the Will of God. He is the true Son of God we can all hope to be.

Just a few thoughts perhaps not answers... :)

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

eggi:
Good question(s) Joe,

I used to have an image of Paul, Peter and James as being legalistic and hard, cold fanatic persons. This was due to the fact that I knew Christianity and even God in this way. Now that I've learned about the true destiny of all mankind, and come to a knowledge of the truth about how God is, and why He has the rules that He has, I see it all in a different light (or, I see it in the light as opposed to darkness).

Whereas I used to hear an angry, condemning voice in my head when reading their letters, I know imagine a soft yet firm voice. A voice from men who have a great love for all, and who judge because they love, not because they hate.

If I should meet any of them in the flesh, I think I would meet three men who looked exactly like you and me (except they would wear different clothing). I think I would be astonished to see how ordinary and common people they appeared to be. Just like Jesus Christ Himself.

If I had a Q&A session with them I think many things would become clear, but then again, they can become clear even today, because it's only through God's inspiration that we can come to understand. Perhaps I would even reject their teachings, or we would end up having a discussion, just like believers do have today.

I think things haven't changed all that much in the last 2000 years. We know from Scripture that the apostles had to defend what they believed, and that many who followed them left them.

I can't wait to hear what you others have to say about this!

God bless you,
Eirik

Rui:
Hi Joe i sure do appreciate hearing such thoghts...They are intriguing but we can easily relate to God through his word wich does say that we still have not received the spirit of redemption of this carnal body of ours and are to await it with patience, So it is obvious that Peter paul and James were not perfect but yet Justified before our Only living God in Jesus through Jesus himself by faith Just as we are ourselves...I do however assume u do have the answer to all your thoughts in Jesus...God bless u...Rui



--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on December 11, 2007, 02:13:44 PM ---Just a few simple questions popped into my head.....




What do you think many of the people who came into contact, heard the teachings perhaps even were compelled to search their words think of the personalities of these men? What things might have been said about them and their students? Did they initially receive the message with joy and thankfulness but when a favorite belief of theirs came under fire decide that these so called teachers weren't so great after all? Aren't all believers given access to the same Spirit of Christ in equal measure?

Do you believe that every person that met them were enthralled and impressed? Did some perceive their words to be harsh and uncompromising? How about the students of the apostles, were they all things to all people at all times? Were intemperate statements made by some of the apostles and some of their students from time to time, or do we assume that once they were converted they walked the walk of perfection?

How would we ourselves have perceived these men, would we have demanded perfection (or at least our perception or understanding of perfection) out of them as we justified our own shortcomings? Would we judge them even as we were dismayed and put off by judgments they made in regard to others?

I guess the bottom line is what if we had had face to face contact with these men chosen of God, what would our opinion of them be if we saw not the idealized version we may have of them, but the real, in the flesh people that ate, breathed, dealt with conflict, needed to bathe, had to grind out a living, etc. what would we have thought about them then, especially if others who may have been more attractive, given to sweet compliments sought us out and stoked our egos rather than stoking our spirit?

Again, just some thoughts that were rolling about the brain of late.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
 

--- End quote ---

Chris R:
Hi Joe,

I think in the beginning, there was a sense of false pride in the apostles hearts, like when John said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in your name; and we forbid him, because he does not follow with us.  And Jesus said to him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us, is for us. Luk 9:49-50 

I believe after this the apostles began to see that the kingdom was not just for them alone. Though they speak with authority, this should not be confused with arrogance.

Are they perfect? absolutely not! did they go about fornicating, and drunken, stealing chickens and such....Nope! God chose these men, hand picked them for this mission, Do we suppose God would not have provided a person of good character for others to follow?

Surely Paul did not speak to his own vanity when he said; Be ye followers of me, even as I also [am] of Christ.[1Cor 11:1]

 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.

Peace

Chris R

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