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Was Christ Created?
Joey Porter:
I believe I have seen in the writings of both Ray and Mike that they both believe Christ was created. But if this is so, then He would be a "creature" or part of creation, would He not? And in what way could we logically exclude Him from a passage such as from Romans 8?
Romans 8
19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
We know that John chapter 1 states:
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jesus is the Word of God, and I find it interesting that the very first words spoken by God, at least that are documented in the scriptures, are "Let there be light."
So we know that God created the heavens and the earth, but His first words spoken were "let there be light." So, is there a difference between being "created" and being "spoken'' into existence?
However, if this phrase "Let there be light" really is Christ being spoken into existence, that poses another problem. John 1:3 says:
3All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.
According to Genesis 1, God created the heavens and the earth before He spoke the words "Let there be light." So, Christ must have existed before the heavens and the earth were created, because the heavens and the eart are certainly a part of all things, and they were created before God said "Let there be light," and John says all things were created by Christ.
Does anyone have any insight to offer here? I just have a hard time accepting that Christ was "created" because then there would be no way that we could separate Him from the creation that was subjected to frustration as spoken of in Romans 8.
Joey Porter:
Something else to point out is that Jesus Christ is the beginning and the end, and if it was "In the beginning" that the heavens and the earth were created, Christ must have existed before the words "Let there be light" were spoken.
ertsky:
the english word "by" in john 1:3 is a terrible translation
it's the greek dia and should be rendered "through"
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
from there it's on to
1Co 8:6 but to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.
and also
Joh 12:44 Now Jesus cries and said, "He who is believing in Me is not believing in Me, but in Him Who sends Me."
and
Joh 16:27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Joh 16:28 I came out from the Father and have come into the world; I leave the world again and go to the Father.
1Co 15:28 But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who has subjected all things to Him, that God may be all things in all.
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Deedle:
Rev 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Col 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Now Gen 1:1
Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth
Look at the word beginning here.
H7225
ראשׁית
rê'shîyth
ray-sheeth'
From the same as H7218; the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.
Christ is called the Firstfruit...
1Co 15:20 (REV)
But, now, hath Christ been raised from among the dead,-a firstfruit of them who have fallen asleep;
So in Christ God created the heavens and the earth.
1Co 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge...
Deedle :D
nightmare sasuke:
--- Quote from: Joey Porter ---I believe I have seen in the writings of both Ray and Mike that they both believe Christ was created. But if this is so, then He would be a "creature" or part of creation, would He not? And in what way could we logically exclude Him from a passage such as from Romans 8?
Romans 8
19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
We know that John chapter 1 states:
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jesus is the Word of God, and I find it interesting that the very first words spoken by God, at least that are documented in the scriptures, are "Let there be light."
So we know that God created the heavens and the earth, but His first words spoken were "let there be light." So, is there a difference between being "created" and being "spoken'' into existence?
However, if this phrase "Let there be light" really is Christ being spoken into existence, that poses another problem. John 1:3 says:
3All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.
According to Genesis 1, God created the heavens and the earth before He spoke the words "Let there be light." So, Christ must have existed before the heavens and the earth were created, because the heavens and the eart are certainly a part of all things, and they were created before God said "Let there be light," and John says all things were created by Christ.
Does anyone have any insight to offer here? I just have a hard time accepting that Christ was "created" because then there would be no way that we could separate Him from the creation that was subjected to frustration as spoken of in Romans 8.
--- End quote ---
To comment on John 1:1:
The Greek is "᾿Εν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος."
Spoken, it sounds something like, "en archay ane ho logos kai ho logos ane pros ton theon kai theos ane ho logos."
I'd like to point out the definite article, ton. John says that Jesus was with the God, thus distinguishing Jesus from the Father.
Moreover, John says:
"οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν Θεόν" (Joh 1:2), which sounds like, "outos ane en archay pros ton theon."
Yet again John refers to the father as ton theon or the God. He, however, refers to Jesus as, simply, theos, rather than ton theos.
In other words, God the Father is the God or ton theon, whereas Jesus is plainly theos.
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