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Was Christ Created?
Joey Porter:
--- Quote from: ertsky ---the english word "by" in john 1:3 is a terrible translation
it's the greek dia and should be rendered "through"
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
from there it's on to
1Co 8:6 but to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.
and also
Joh 12:44 Now Jesus cries and said, "He who is believing in Me is not believing in Me, but in Him Who sends Me."
and
Joh 16:27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Joh 16:28 I came out from the Father and have come into the world; I leave the world again and go to the Father.
1Co 15:28 But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who has subjected all things to Him, that God may be all things in all.
f
--- End quote ---
I checked the word "by" in Colossians 1:16 and it appears that word also could have been translated more appropriately some other way - perhaps "in" or "within."
But is Christ part of "creation?" I'm not saying that He is the eternally existing second member of a 3 person Godhead, but was He created? If so, that would pose problems with verses such as
Romans 1
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
Here, the worship of created things is clearly condemned.
Hebrews 12
27The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.
The scriptures also say that Christ is the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. But look at what is written in James:
James 1
18He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.
If Christ has been "created," it wouldn't make sense to say that we are a kind of firstfruits of all that He created.
So, what can we find in the scriptures to show that Christ came into existence without being created?
Joey Porter:
Thanks to all for the other replies. I don't have time to respond now, but later I can look at them and respond.
nightmare sasuke:
--- Quote from: Joey Porter ---
--- Quote from: ertsky ---the english word "by" in john 1:3 is a terrible translation
it's the greek dia and should be rendered "through"
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
from there it's on to
1Co 8:6 but to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.
and also
Joh 12:44 Now Jesus cries and said, "He who is believing in Me is not believing in Me, but in Him Who sends Me."
and
Joh 16:27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Joh 16:28 I came out from the Father and have come into the world; I leave the world again and go to the Father.
1Co 15:28 But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who has subjected all things to Him, that God may be all things in all.
f
--- End quote ---
I checked the word "by" in Colossians 1:16 and it appears that word also could have been translated more appropriately some other way - perhaps "in" or "within."
But is Christ part of "creation?" I'm not saying that He is the eternally existing second member of a 3 person Godhead, but was He created? If so, that would pose problems with verses such as
Romans 1
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
Here, the worship of created things is clearly condemned.
Hebrews 12
27The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.
The scriptures also say that Christ is the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. But look at what is written in James:
James 1
18He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.
If Christ has been "created," it wouldn't make sense to say that we are a kind of firstfruits of all that He created.
So, what can we find in the scriptures to show that Christ came into existence without being created?
--- End quote ---
"And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;" (Rev 3:14, KJV).
I see it this way. God created Jesus, gave Jesus his throne, Jesus created us, Jesus talked to the saints resulting in the Old Testament, Jesus came in the flesh, Jesus declared the Father, the Internet was created, Ray made a website, here we are.
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: nightmare sasuke ---
--- Quote from: Joey Porter ---
--- Quote from: ertsky ---the english word "by" in john 1:3 is a terrible translation
it's the greek dia and should be rendered "through"
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
from there it's on to
1Co 8:6 but to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.
and also
Joh 12:44 Now Jesus cries and said, "He who is believing in Me is not believing in Me, but in Him Who sends Me."
and
Joh 16:27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Joh 16:28 I came out from the Father and have come into the world; I leave the world again and go to the Father.
1Co 15:28 But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who has subjected all things to Him, that God may be all things in all.
f
--- End quote ---
I checked the word "by" in Colossians 1:16 and it appears that word also could have been translated more appropriately some other way - perhaps "in" or "within."
But is Christ part of "creation?" I'm not saying that He is the eternally existing second member of a 3 person Godhead, but was He created? If so, that would pose problems with verses such as
Romans 1
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
Here, the worship of created things is clearly condemned.
Hebrews 12
27The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.
The scriptures also say that Christ is the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. But look at what is written in James:
James 1
18He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.
If Christ has been "created," it wouldn't make sense to say that we are a kind of firstfruits of all that He created.
So, what can we find in the scriptures to show that Christ came into existence without being created?
--- End quote ---
"And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;" (Rev 3:14, KJV).
I see it this way. God created Jesus, gave Jesus his throne, Jesus created us, Jesus talked to the saints resulting in the Old Testament, Jesus came in the flesh, Jesus declared the Father, the Internet was created, Ray made a website, here we are.
--- End quote ---
rofl, nice.
I see it as, God the FATHER Created everything, out from Him came Jesus, through which EVERYTHING IS, and FOR EVERYTHING is Him.
"One for all and all for one?"
I don't see any problem with anything in the bible if Jesus is the FIRSTFRUITS of those created. He is part of God, so He is GODLIKE we however are created IN GODS IMAGE, or rather being created In His image, so one day we too shall be apart of the "Firstfruits" from which Christ was the FIRST Of these.
I could be wrong, i dont know lol, but i don't see any problems here.
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Joey Porter ---
I checked the word "by" in Colossians 1:16 and it appears that word also could have been translated more appropriately some other way - perhaps "in" or "within."
But is Christ part of "creation?" I'm not saying that He is the eternally existing second member of a 3 person Godhead, but was He created? If so, that would pose problems with verses such as
Romans 1
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
Here, the worship of created things is clearly condemned.
Hebrews 12
27The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.
The scriptures also say that Christ is the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. But look at what is written in James:
James 1
18He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.
If Christ has been "created," it wouldn't make sense to say that we are a kind of firstfruits of all that He created.
So, what can we find in the scriptures to show that Christ came into existence without being created?
--- End quote ---
Romans 1
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
Well in the begining God the father is the UNCREATED CREATOR. Jesus Christ is the First of everything, so Through HIM was EVERYTHING. So in essance is He not then the Creator of everything also?
James 1
18He[God the Father?] chose to give us birth through the word of truth[Jesus CHrist?], that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all He[God the Father? Jesus Christ?] created.
Again God the Father created everything Through Jesus Christ and For Jesus Christ.
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