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Was Christ Created?
shibboleth:
The sons of God are also created beings, and yet the world is awaiting their appearing. So just being created isn't the only point here. Christ was created in a different order than ordinary human beings. I will look into this more.
orion77:
Christ was begotten physically different than any other human that ever lived. Yet, He was born as we are, He was baptized in the Holy Spirit as we are, He suffered for the truth as we do, eventually physically died for the truth, in which we do too.
This is the Son of God, the same as us, who knows by experience the weaknesses of humans. Yet, by the miraculous conception from God, knew no sin. This is what makes Him the Christ, our Lord and Saviour. Who bore the sins of the world to atone for the sins we all have committed and not only us, but for the whole world.
Of course, all here know these things, but it is important to also learn from the fiery trials and tribulations that God the Father put us through to drag us to the truth. They put the word in its proper setting, which is in the spirit. We all come out of the sea of humanity, then to the earthly, and finally to the heavenly (New Jerusalem).
Except, Jesus was the first creation, who was before all, then in the Fathers own time humbled Himself and became as one of us to proclaim the Father. By His manner of conception, speaks loudly of the newborn experience when we are born again (begotten) of God. He is in the creating (creation) business. It's what He does and has the power and will to accomplish it.
First the physical and then the spiritual, first darkness then the day.
Gen 1:1
IN A BEGINNING Created by the Elohim were the heavens and the earth.
Gen 1:2
Yet the earth became a chaos and vacant, and darkness was on the surface of the submerged chaos. Yet the spirit of the Elohim is vibrating over the surface of the water.
Gen 1:3
And saying is the Elohim, "Become light!" And it is becoming light.
Gen 1:4
And seeing is the Elohim the light, that it is good. And separating is the Elohim between the light and the darkness.
Gen 1:5
And calling is the Elohim the light "day," and the darkness He calls "night." And coming is it to be evening and coming to be morning, day one.
In day one, darkness came first. Through our own experience we can see this is true. We were all in darkness before the light. Even us who are truthful, when in the light know we can do nothing in ourselves. It is all to the glory of God, who will be all in all. Creaton or creating is the plan of God, to bring about many sons and daughters. It all started with Jesus and will end with Him. He is the alpha and the omega. Until the time comes for Jesus to hand it over to God the Father. Then the saying will be said, death where is your victory?
For us to be born again, something must die. Jesus when He humbled Himself and put on flesh, died to the glory He had with the Father and became as one of us. I think that is why it is vital to be truly born again and follow in His footsteps. We must be like Him, for the day will come, when we shall see Him as He is, for like He was in the world, so are we.
I know, I know, rambling on again. Cant help it! From where I live, hellfire, self righteousness, tradition are very, very deeply rooted in the majority. Truly, they love the darkness more than the light. Amazing how true the word of God is! Wow! When one butts against the religious system, persecution follows quickly. I will start another thread to see the persecution of other brethren and sisters. I think it would be a comfort to us all, of not being alone.
God bless,
Gary
Joey Porter:
So then, is the consensus that Christ has not always existed from eternity past, and yet, He was not really "created?" I believe we need to have a firm answer on this because I have seen that argument used (we are not to worship created things, etc) when attempts to refute the trinity are rebutted.
I believe we should seek a final, ultimate answer for this issue, an answer that has no weaknesses and is biblically sound, so that we can
Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. (1 Peter 3:15)
rvhill:
--- Quote from: Joey Porter ---So then, is the consensus that Christ has not always existed from eternity past, and yet, He was not really "created?" I believe we need to have a firm answer on this because I have seen that argument used (we are not to worship created things, etc) when attempts to refute the trinity are rebutted.
I believe we should seek a final, ultimate answer for this issue, an answer that has no weaknesses and is biblically sound, so that we can
Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. (1 Peter 3:15)
--- End quote ---
Here the answer, and the only one you will most likely get.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word.
Joh 1:2 This was in the beginning toward God.
Joh 1:3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being.
Joh 1:4 In it was life, and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light is appearing in the darkness, and the darkness grasped it not.
The only answer to any thing you really need in the bible is.
Joh 3:16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. Everything else is open to doubt and question
JeffD:
Hello everyone. I have a question regarding the translation of Rev. 3:14. In this topic, it seems like you guys are using the KJV translation of the verse. I just want to know: is that an accurate translation, because some of the other Bibles translate it differently. Before I continue, though, let me just say, regardless of the correct translation/meaning of this verse, I believe that Christ was indeed a created being.
Anyway, I double-checked the verse in the New American Standard and the New Living Translation bibles (the only others we have, aside from the King James/New King James bibles), and found that the NLT says that Jesus is "the ruler of God's creation", while the NASB says the same as the KJV/NKJV, except it says "Beginning" could be translated as "Source" or "Origin".
I looked it up in Strong's, and got the "beginning", "origin", and "ruler" definitions (among a few others). So, how are we supposed to interpret that verse? I see what everyone's saying about Jesus being created by the Father, but if "origin" and "ruler" are acceptable words to use in place of "beginning", couldn't it be read as Jesus being the one who created everything (except Himself, of course).
I e-mailed this same question to Mike, but it seems he misunderstood my beliefs about Jesus being created. The third time I wrote to him on this subject, re-explaining my beliefs and question (I think he just skimmed my e-mail; that, or sometimes I get a bit too wordy and repetitive :wink: ), I haven't heard back from him. It's probably one of those things where you're not supposed to continue a probably pointless argument after the second admonition.
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