Was Christ Created?

[Joey Porter]

I believe I have seen in the writings of both Ray and Mike that they both believe Christ was created.  But if this is so, then He would be a "creature" or part of creation, would He not?  And in what way could we logically exclude Him from a passage such as from Romans 8?

Romans 8
19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

We know that John chapter 1 states:

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jesus is the Word of God, and I find it interesting that the very first words spoken by God, at least that are documented in the scriptures, are "Let there be light."

So we know that God created the heavens and the earth, but His first words spoken were "let there be light."  So, is there a difference between being "created" and being "spoken'' into existence?

However, if this phrase "Let there be light" really is Christ being spoken into existence, that poses another problem.  John 1:3 says:

3All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.

According to Genesis 1, God created the heavens and the earth before He spoke the words "Let there be light."  So, Christ must have existed before the heavens and the earth were created, because the heavens and the eart are certainly a part of all things, and they were created before God said "Let there be light," and John says all things were created by Christ.

Does anyone have any insight to offer here?  I just have a hard time accepting that Christ was "created" because then there would be no way that we could separate Him from the creation that was subjected to frustration as spoken of in Romans 8.

[Joey Porter]

Something else to point out is that Jesus Christ is the beginning and the end, and if it was "In the beginning" that the heavens and the earth were created, Christ must have existed before the words "Let there be light" were spoken.

[ertsky]

the english word "by" in john 1:3 is a terrible translation

it's the greek dia and should be rendered "through"

Joh 1:3  All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

from there it's on to

1Co 8:6  but to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.

and also

Joh 12:44 Now Jesus cries and said, "He who is believing in Me is not believing in Me, but in Him Who sends Me."

and

Joh 16:27  for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Joh 16:28  I came out from the Father and have come into the world; I leave the world again and go to the Father.

1Co 15:28  But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who has subjected all things to Him, that God may be all things in all.

f

[Deedle]

Rev 3:14  
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Col 1:15  
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Now Gen 1:1

Gen 1:1  
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth

Look at the word beginning here.

H7225
ראשׁית
rê'shîyth
ray-sheeth'
From the same as H7218; the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.

Christ is called the Firstfruit...

1Co 15:20 (REV)
But, now, hath Christ been raised from among the dead,-a firstfruit of them who have fallen asleep;

So in Christ God created the heavens and the earth.

1Co 8:6  
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 7  Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge...

Deedle  

[nightmare sasuke]

I believe I have seen in the writings of both Ray and Mike that they both believe Christ was created.  But if this is so, then He would be a "creature" or part of creation, would He not?  And in what way could we logically exclude Him from a passage such as from Romans 8?

Romans 8
19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

We know that John chapter 1 states:

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jesus is the Word of God, and I find it interesting that the very first words spoken by God, at least that are documented in the scriptures, are "Let there be light."

So we know that God created the heavens and the earth, but His first words spoken were "let there be light."  So, is there a difference between being "created" and being "spoken'' into existence?

However, if this phrase "Let there be light" really is Christ being spoken into existence, that poses another problem.  John 1:3 says:

3All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.

According to Genesis 1, God created the heavens and the earth before He spoke the words "Let there be light."  So, Christ must have existed before the heavens and the earth were created, because the heavens and the eart are certainly a part of all things, and they were created before God said "Let there be light," and John says all things were created by Christ.

Does anyone have any insight to offer here?  I just have a hard time accepting that Christ was "created" because then there would be no way that we could separate Him from the creation that was subjected to frustration as spoken of in Romans 8.

To comment on John 1:1:

The Greek is "᾿Εν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος."

Spoken, it sounds something like, "en archay ane ho logos kai ho logos ane pros ton theon kai theos ane ho logos."

I'd like to point out the definite article, ton. John says that Jesus was with the God, thus distinguishing Jesus from the Father.

Moreover, John says:

"οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν Θεόν" (Joh 1:2), which sounds like, "outos ane en archay pros ton theon."

Yet again John refers to the father as ton theon or the God. He, however, refers to Jesus as, simply, theos, rather than ton theos.

In other words, God the Father is the God or ton theon, whereas Jesus is plainly theos.

[Joey Porter]

the english word "by" in john 1:3 is a terrible translation

it's the greek dia and should be rendered "through"

Joh 1:3  All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

from there it's on to

1Co 8:6  but to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.

and also

Joh 12:44 Now Jesus cries and said, "He who is believing in Me is not believing in Me, but in Him Who sends Me."

and

Joh 16:27  for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Joh 16:28  I came out from the Father and have come into the world; I leave the world again and go to the Father.

1Co 15:28  But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who has subjected all things to Him, that God may be all things in all.

f

I checked the word "by" in Colossians 1:16 and it appears that word also could have been translated more appropriately some other way - perhaps "in" or "within."

But is Christ part of "creation?"  I'm not saying that He is the eternally existing second member of a 3 person Godhead, but was He created? If so, that would pose problems with verses such as

Romans 1
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creatorâ€"who is forever praised. Amen.

Here, the worship of created things is clearly condemned.

Hebrews 12
27The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shakenâ€"that is, created thingsâ€"so that what cannot be shaken may remain.

The scriptures also say that Christ is the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.  But look at what is written in James:

James 1
18He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

If Christ has been "created," it wouldn't make sense to say that we are a kind of firstfruits of all that He created.

So, what can we find in the scriptures to show that Christ came into existence without being created?

[Joey Porter]

Thanks to all for the other replies.  I don't have time to respond now, but later I can look at them and respond.

[nightmare sasuke]

the english word "by" in john 1:3 is a terrible translation

it's the greek dia and should be rendered "through"

Joh 1:3  All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

from there it's on to

1Co 8:6  but to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.

and also

Joh 12:44 Now Jesus cries and said, "He who is believing in Me is not believing in Me, but in Him Who sends Me."

and

Joh 16:27  for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Joh 16:28  I came out from the Father and have come into the world; I leave the world again and go to the Father.

1Co 15:28  But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who has subjected all things to Him, that God may be all things in all.

f

I checked the word "by" in Colossians 1:16 and it appears that word also could have been translated more appropriately some other way - perhaps "in" or "within."

But is Christ part of "creation?"  I'm not saying that He is the eternally existing second member of a 3 person Godhead, but was He created? If so, that would pose problems with verses such as

Romans 1
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creatorâ€"who is forever praised. Amen.

Here, the worship of created things is clearly condemned.

Hebrews 12
27The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shakenâ€"that is, created thingsâ€"so that what cannot be shaken may remain.

The scriptures also say that Christ is the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.  But look at what is written in James:

James 1
18He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

If Christ has been "created," it wouldn't make sense to say that we are a kind of firstfruits of all that He created.

So, what can we find in the scriptures to show that Christ came into existence without being created?

"And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;" (Rev 3:14, KJV).

I see it this way. God created Jesus, gave Jesus his throne, Jesus created us, Jesus talked to the saints resulting in the Old Testament, Jesus came in the flesh, Jesus declared the Father, the Internet was created, Ray made a website, here we are.

[lilitalienboi16]

the english word "by" in john 1:3 is a terrible translation

it's the greek dia and should be rendered "through"

Joh 1:3  All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

from there it's on to

1Co 8:6  but to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.

and also

Joh 12:44 Now Jesus cries and said, "He who is believing in Me is not believing in Me, but in Him Who sends Me."

and

Joh 16:27  for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Joh 16:28  I came out from the Father and have come into the world; I leave the world again and go to the Father.

1Co 15:28  But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who has subjected all things to Him, that God may be all things in all.

f

I checked the word "by" in Colossians 1:16 and it appears that word also could have been translated more appropriately some other way - perhaps "in" or "within."

But is Christ part of "creation?"  I'm not saying that He is the eternally existing second member of a 3 person Godhead, but was He created? If so, that would pose problems with verses such as

Romans 1
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creatorâ€"who is forever praised. Amen.

Here, the worship of created things is clearly condemned.

Hebrews 12
27The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shakenâ€"that is, created thingsâ€"so that what cannot be shaken may remain.

The scriptures also say that Christ is the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.  But look at what is written in James:

James 1
18He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

If Christ has been "created," it wouldn't make sense to say that we are a kind of firstfruits of all that He created.

So, what can we find in the scriptures to show that Christ came into existence without being created?

"And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;" (Rev 3:14, KJV).

I see it this way. God created Jesus, gave Jesus his throne, Jesus created us, Jesus talked to the saints resulting in the Old Testament, Jesus came in the flesh, Jesus declared the Father, the Internet was created, Ray made a website, here we are.

rofl, nice.

I see it as, God the FATHER Created everything, out from Him came Jesus, through which EVERYTHING IS, and FOR EVERYTHING is Him.

"One for all and all for one?"

I don't see any problem with anything in the bible if Jesus is the FIRSTFRUITS of those created. He is part of God, so He is GODLIKE we however are created IN GODS IMAGE, or rather being created In His image, so one day we too shall be apart of the "Firstfruits" from which Christ was the FIRST Of these.

I could be wrong, i dont know lol, but i don't see any problems here.

[lilitalienboi16]

I checked the word "by" in Colossians 1:16 and it appears that word also could have been translated more appropriately some other way - perhaps "in" or "within."

But is Christ part of "creation?"  I'm not saying that He is the eternally existing second member of a 3 person Godhead, but was He created? If so, that would pose problems with verses such as

Romans 1
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creatorâ€"who is forever praised. Amen.

Here, the worship of created things is clearly condemned.

Hebrews 12
27The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shakenâ€"that is, created thingsâ€"so that what cannot be shaken may remain.

The scriptures also say that Christ is the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.  But look at what is written in James:

James 1
18He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

If Christ has been "created," it wouldn't make sense to say that we are a kind of firstfruits of all that He created.

So, what can we find in the scriptures to show that Christ came into existence without being created?

Romans 1
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creatorâ€"who is forever praised. Amen.

Well in the begining God the father is the UNCREATED CREATOR. Jesus Christ is the First of everything, so Through HIM was EVERYTHING. So in essance is He not then the Creator of everything also?


James 1
18He[God the Father?] chose to give us birth through the word of truth[Jesus CHrist?], that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all He[God the Father? Jesus Christ?] created.

Again God the Father created everything Through Jesus Christ and For Jesus Christ.

[shibboleth]

The sons of God are also created beings, and yet the world is awaiting their appearing. So just being created isn't the only point here. Christ was created in a different order than ordinary human beings. I will look into this more.

[orion77]

Christ was begotten physically different than any other human that ever lived.  Yet, He was born as we are, He was baptized in the Holy Spirit as we are, He suffered for the truth as we do, eventually physically died for the truth, in which we do too.  

This is the Son of God, the same as us, who knows by experience the weaknesses of humans.  Yet, by the miraculous conception from God, knew no sin.  This is what makes Him the Christ, our Lord and Saviour.  Who bore the sins of the world to atone for the sins we all have committed and not only us, but for the whole world.  

Of course, all here know these things, but it is important to also learn from the fiery trials and tribulations that God the Father put us through to drag us to the truth.  They put the word in its proper setting, which is in the spirit.  We all come out of the sea of humanity, then to the earthly, and finally to the heavenly (New Jerusalem).  

Except, Jesus was the first creation, who was before all, then in the Fathers own time humbled Himself and became as one of us to proclaim the Father.  By His manner of conception, speaks loudly of the newborn experience when we are born again (begotten) of God.  He is in the creating (creation) business.  It's what He does and has the power and will to accomplish it.

First the physical and then the spiritual, first darkness then the day.  

Gen 1:1
IN A BEGINNING Created by the Elohim were the heavens and the earth.

Gen 1:2
Yet the earth became a chaos and vacant, and darkness was on the surface of the submerged chaos. Yet the spirit of the Elohim is vibrating over the surface of the water.

Gen 1:3
And saying is the Elohim,  "Become light!"  And it is becoming light.

Gen 1:4
And seeing is the Elohim the light, that it is good. And separating is the Elohim between the light and the darkness.

Gen 1:5
And calling is the Elohim the light  "day,"  and the darkness He calls  "night."  And coming is it to be evening and coming to be morning, day one.


In day one, darkness came first.  Through our own experience we can see this is true.  We were all in darkness before the light.  Even us who are truthful, when in the light know we can do nothing in ourselves.  It is all to the glory of God, who will be all in all.  Creaton or creating is the plan of God, to bring about many sons and daughters.  It all started with Jesus and will end with Him.  He is the alpha and the omega.  Until the time comes for Jesus to hand it over to God the Father.  Then the saying will be said, death where is your victory?

For us to be born again, something must die.  Jesus when He humbled Himself and put on flesh, died to the glory He had with the Father and became as one of us.  I think that is why it is vital to be truly born again and follow in His footsteps.  We must be like Him, for the day will come, when we shall see Him as He is, for like He was in the world, so are we.

I know, I know, rambling on again.  Cant help it!  From where I live, hellfire, self righteousness, tradition are very, very deeply rooted in the majority.  Truly, they love the darkness more than the light.  Amazing how true the word of God is!  Wow!  When one butts against the religious system, persecution follows quickly.  I will start another thread to see the persecution of other brethren and sisters.  I think it would be a comfort to us all, of not being alone.

God bless,

Gary

[Joey Porter]

So then, is the consensus that Christ has not always existed from eternity past, and yet, He was not really "created?"  I believe we need to have a firm answer on this because I have seen that argument used (we are not to worship created things, etc) when attempts to refute the trinity are rebutted.

I believe we should seek a final, ultimate answer for this issue, an answer  that has no weaknesses and is biblically sound, so that we can

Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. (1 Peter 3:15)

[rvhill]

So then, is the consensus that Christ has not always existed from eternity past, and yet, He was not really "created?"  I believe we need to have a firm answer on this because I have seen that argument used (we are not to worship created things, etc) when attempts to refute the trinity are rebutted.

I believe we should seek a final, ultimate answer for this issue, an answer  that has no weaknesses and is biblically sound, so that we can

Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. (1 Peter 3:15)

Here the answer, and the only one you will most likely get.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word.
Joh 1:2 This was in the beginning toward God.
Joh 1:3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being.
Joh 1:4 In it was life, and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light is appearing in the darkness, and the darkness grasped it not.

The only answer to any thing you really need in the bible is.
Joh 3:16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. Everything else is open to doubt and question

[JeffD]

Hello everyone.  I have a question regarding the translation of Rev. 3:14.  In this topic, it seems like you guys are using the KJV translation of the verse.  I just want to know: is that an accurate translation, because some of the other Bibles translate it differently.  Before I continue, though, let me just say, regardless of the correct translation/meaning of this verse, I believe that Christ was indeed a created being.

Anyway, I double-checked the verse in the New American Standard and the New Living Translation bibles (the only others we have, aside from the King James/New King James bibles), and found that the NLT says that Jesus is "the ruler of God's creation", while the NASB says the same as the KJV/NKJV, except it says "Beginning" could be translated as "Source" or "Origin".

I looked it up in Strong's, and got the "beginning", "origin", and "ruler" definitions (among a few others).  So, how are we supposed to interpret that verse?  I see what everyone's saying about Jesus being created by the Father, but if "origin" and "ruler" are acceptable words to use in place of "beginning", couldn't it be read as Jesus being the one who created everything (except Himself, of course).

I e-mailed this same question to Mike, but it seems he misunderstood my beliefs about Jesus being created.  The third time I wrote to him on this subject, re-explaining my beliefs and question (I think he just skimmed my e-mail; that, or sometimes I get a bit too wordy and repetitive :wink: ), I haven't heard back from him.  It's probably one of those things where you're not supposed to continue a probably pointless argument after the second admonition.

[Joey Porter]

Well, the way I look at it is:

We have no scripture that clearly and plainly states "Jesus Christ was created by God."

We have a few scriptures that show that we are not to worship any created thing or being.

We have a boatload of scriptures that show that Christ is and will continue to be in subordination to the Father.

Christ is called the Word of God.  Words are spoken.  Creatures and creations are formed.

We know that Christ and the Father are One, and yet, the Father is greater than Christ.

The big problem I have with the trinity is not so much that the doctrine considers Christ as eternally existing.  It has to do with the fact that the doctrine claims that He is equal to the Father, which goes against Christ's own words.

Many time in the NT, we see things that David said centuries prior, actually being said by Christ, such as "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" and "They hated me without reason."  

Well, here is something to consider, from Proverbs chapter 8.  This is metaphorically taken as "wisdom," a female, speaking.  But I wonder if this might not be another case of the words of Christ again appearing in the OT.


Proverbs 8
22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
      before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity,
      from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
      when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
      before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields
      or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
      when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above
      and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary
      so the waters would not overstep his command,
      and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
      I was filled with delight day after day,
      rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
      and delighting in mankind.

I don't think we should assume that these words apply to Christ, but it's definitely some Truth worth seeking.

[nightmare sasuke]

Hello everyone.  I have a question regarding the translation of Rev. 3:14.  In this topic, it seems like you guys are using the KJV translation of the verse.  I just want to know: is that an accurate translation, because some of the other Bibles translate it differently.  Before I continue, though, let me just say, regardless of the correct translation/meaning of this verse, I believe that Christ was indeed a created being.

Anyway, I double-checked the verse in the New American Standard and the New Living Translation bibles (the only others we have, aside from the King James/New King James bibles), and found that the NLT says that Jesus is "the ruler of God's creation", while the NASB says the same as the KJV/NKJV, except it says "Beginning" could be translated as "Source" or "Origin".

I looked it up in Strong's, and got the "beginning", "origin", and "ruler" definitions (among a few others).  So, how are we supposed to interpret that verse?  I see what everyone's saying about Jesus being created by the Father, but if "origin" and "ruler" are acceptable words to use in place of "beginning", couldn't it be read as Jesus being the one who created everything (except Himself, of course).

I e-mailed this same question to Mike, but it seems he misunderstood my beliefs about Jesus being created.  The third time I wrote to him on this subject, re-explaining my beliefs and question (I think he just skimmed my e-mail; that, or sometimes I get a bit too wordy and repetitive :wink: ), I haven't heard back from him.  It's probably one of those things where you're not supposed to continue a probably pointless argument after the second admonition.

I realized this too. I checked in the Vulgate to see how Jerome (spelling?) interpreted it and he indeed rendered it with a Latin word strictly meaning "beginning." Correct me if I'm wrong.

"et angelo Laodiciae ecclesiae scribe haec dicit Amen testis fidelis et verus qui est principium creaturae Dei" (Rev 3:14, Vulgate).

It's a touchy subject, though, considering, as far as I know, we only have exactly one or two witnesses bluntly saying Christ was created.

[hillsbororiver]

Perhaps rereading this might  clear up some questions, it did for me;

http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html

[Joey Porter]

In that paper, Ray states that Christ came out from God (as Eve came out from Adam.  Adam did not create Eve, but she came out from him).  But Ray does not specifically state, at least that I saw, that Christ was created by God.  Nor do the scriptures.  Nightmare S made a good point in that we don't have two clear witnesses in the scriptures stating that Christ is a created being.  There is clearly some uncertainty about the meanings of these certain passages.

I know that I have read in Mike's writings that he believes that Christ was actually created, as he teaches here,  http://www.*not-allowed*.com/whythebible.php ,  but I myself will not make that claim.  I see a difference between being "spoken," or "coming out from," and being created.  Surely Christ is not groaning, as in pains of childbirth, waiting to be liberated from His bondage and decay.  (Romans 8:19-22)

In fact, the more I consider this, the more I hope that Mike will come to change his view on this issue.  I realize it may just be semantics, but I don't think we can be too careful when dealing with the Words of God.

[nightmare sasuke]

In that paper, Ray states that Christ came out from God (as Eve came out from Adam.  Adam did not create Eve, but she came out from him).  But Ray does not specifically state, at least that I saw, that Christ was created by God.  Nor do the scriptures.  Nightmare S made a good point in that we don't have two clear witnesses in the scriptures stating that Christ is a created being.  There is clearly some uncertainty about the meanings of these certain passages.

I know that I have read in Mike's writings that he believes that Christ was actually created, as he teaches here,  http://www.*not-allowed*.com/whythebible.php ,  but I myself will not make that claim.  I see a difference between being "spoken," or "coming out from," and being created.  Surely Christ is not groaning, as in pains of childbirth, waiting to be liberated from His bondage and decay.  (Romans 8:19-22)

In fact, the more I consider this, the more I hope that Mike will come to change his view on this issue.  I realize it may just be semantics, but I don't think we can be too careful when dealing with the Words of God.

What's the difference between coming out of God or being created by God? God created man and woman... he just did it a different way for Eve by pulling her out of Adam.

"And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man" (Gen 2:22, KJV).

Eve came out of Adam... but God still "made a woman."