"Church" Email to Ray

[hillsbororiver]

This was an excellent example of what many experience as their eyes have begun to open, many of us (myself very much included) become/became "on fire" in regard to showing ministers, family, friends, etc. the error of their beliefs. It usually does not turn out well.

There are definitely two dynamics in place that dictate the conclusion of these attempts at teaching, one (first and foremost) is that ".....but to them it is not given" Matthew 13:11 (yet).

The second thing I see (and experienced) is that just arguing or debating scripture becomes a carnal display of "gotcha," rarely is there concession when the person we attempt to persuade is not interested in spiritual truths and are quite content with what they presently believe and feel comfortable where they are.   

Rev 3:17  Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched and miserable and poor and blind, and naked:

It takes time to become proficient in witnessing it also takes God to draw someone to His Good News and often He will use those who are consistant in their spiritual lives, living His Word rather than confronting others with their "errors." The gifts of the spirit do not just happen upon us, it is a process that will be ongoing as we journey with Him our entire life here on earth only culminating in perfection at the resurrection.

The Lord most definitely uses His own to draw others to Him, we cannot of ourselves choose anyone, but we can provide an example in the way we live our lives and interact with people we come into contact with.

Joh 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1Pe 3:15  But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

I think it would be interesting to hear some of your experiences in regard to this matter, both positive and negative.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

> Hi Ray,
> I fell upon your website, looking for information on tithing. Boy, have my eyes
> been opened to some very obvious scriptures; THANK YOU!
> I attached notes from one of my Pastors sermons. I have been increasingly
> disturbed by our $50,000 a month mortgage and the constant plea for money. My
> question is: I am a Children's church leader for the 4 and 5 year olds plus I am
> an usher on 2 Sundays out of the week. Being an usher, I have the "privilege" to
> count the "tithes". We have 4 services a week, and I only count one service.
> Our Pastor "rakes in the bucks!" Now, the question: Do I confront my Pastor with
> my new found TRUTH? I feel like a hypocrite collecting tithes, when I myself no
> longer "tithe"- And.... I know many in the Body that are on disability and are
> living on nil.
> I have heard many scriptures translated many different ways by different
> preachers, and at times have been so confused as to what the Word is actually
> saying. I am sad that so many are so sincere, but so sincerely wrong. I have
> seen alot of freak shows in charismatic churches, and have been in the process
> of elimination when it comes to who God is and His character. I feel I have
> been kicked in the butt by Jesus, and am so grateful.
> I am enjoying the "Lake of Fire" series, and can't believe how plain so much of
> what you are teaching is! God is LOVE, and I am amazed that I believed some
> (many) were going to burn forever! it was hard for me to fathom, but that is
> what I was taught, and it goes in line with my verbally abusive earthly father;
> so I swallowed it.
> I know you are VERY busy, but wanted to thank you for sharing the GOOD NEWS (for
> free, even!) and if you have time to rea d my Pastors tithing beliefs, I would
> love your input on how to grace fully jump out of "membership" from this church.
> Gratefully,
> Terri


Dear Terri:  You question is one that I often receive from those who are learning the truth, but don't quite know what to do with that new knowledge. God tells us concerning the Great Church:  "Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues" (Rev. 18:4).

And notice please that God does not say, "And be sure to kick your pastor in the stomach with all your new-found truth BEFORE you "come out of her."

What might be more effective would be to simply write him a message and suggest that you have read extensively on a web site named "bible-truths.com" and in following the Scriptures you now see clearly that the doctrines of Christendom are not the doctrines of God's Word.

This way he can check what you have learned at our site, and it will be up to him as to whether he will continue to teach heresy or repent.  My material covers hundreds of more points of God's word that you could ever in a one-on-one confrontation with your pastor.

Let him then confront ME if he has any arguments against what we teach.

God be with you,

Ray

[Deborah-Leigh]

I did not get the chance to kick my Pastor in the stomach. He kicked me first and boy did it hurt! It hurt plenty! That just shows how much I was still attached to the false teachings, idolatry assumptions, errors and blasphemous teachings that were my compass and yard stick. Well that compass has been smashed thankfully! It was leading me to Hell and the yard stick has been broken. It was leading me to judge my neighbours not as myself!

I SO enjoyed Ray stating that HE would handle any questions arising out of Babylonian leadership! So protective of us!    What a precious teacher we are blessed to have sharing his insights about God and His Son Jesus Christ!

Peace to you

Arcturus

[hebrewroots98]

Well said Joe! 
After having spent 25 years doing the very thing that you speak against here, I am now confronted IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY THAT I USED TO CONFRONT...and guess what ...I HATE IT!!!    (Pay back is a terrible thing )....I now have those who want to corner ME and who really do not want to change themselves since they are totally COMFORTABLE with where they are spiritually; as you said, they just want to persuade me of their way of thinking.  As I had stated in an earlier thread, 'it is best to just lead them to this site than to sit endlessly and try to answer all of their endless questions...'  thus, I had to do this (leave him alone and not preach or teach; I just sent him to BT's site to test his intentions for wanting to know what I know) a couple of weeks ago to a guy (in a very highly paid position in a church) that just wanted to pick my brain; I have not heard back from him since then !  Not to toot my own horn or anything, but, I truly believe that this guy was so embarrassed that he saw fruits in my life that came shining through in a very natural way in my life verses having to 'have a bible study' to show onesself approved', and that I was more knowledgeable than he...that he just couldn't take that so he had to make himself look 'just as smart' as I he saw me.!)  He soon learned that I was NOT IMPRESSED  with anything that he wanted to offer me or confront or corner me on....I mean, why do I have to tell him all of the answers that are here at BT, when he can go here himself and THEN he can tell me if he agrees or not; if he does not agree, then we have no common unity of the spirit in which to further speak about the scriptures together.  As in my case, IF you are leery of their intentions, then it is a good way to test their sincerity (to send them here) before we invest too much time and energy 'discipling' them just to find out that they are not seeking the whole truth afterall!  SO, IT ALSO TAKES WISDOM TO KNOW WHEN TO SAY, 'NO, I WILL NOT STUDY, DEBATE, ARGUE, OR DISCUSS SCRIPTURES WITH YOU RIGHT NOW, TILL I SEE THAT YOU ARE NOT JUST ALL ABOUT GAINING HEAD KNOWLDGE ONLY"...(they will either love you for this response, or they will hate you for it !)...as I stated, before learning the Truth, I would have jumped on ALL opportunities to STUDY/DESCIPLE someone, anyone; but, not anymore!  Not without the promping of the Spirit!

I hope that wasn't too wordy to understand...
Onto tending to my Chili in the crockpot

[hebrewroots98]

I guess our messages crossed Arc!  I hear ya!   ~I was once blind, but now I see!~ Amen!

[Deborah-Leigh]

This internet sure is a blessing!

[gmik]

I hadn't seen that e mail.  Thanks for bringing it to our attention Joe.  I love Ray's answer too.

I don't usually say anything to anyone about anything period!!! (2 years ago I wouldve been shocked that I would say that)

But, the few that I (early on) did try to tell, well, they just don't ask anything.  Apparently they don't want to know more!  That is what I don't get!  Some when they ask me where I go to church now, and I say, oh I don't GO to a church, they never pursue it. One time, I actually showed a friend the forum and some of the threads.  Oh, cool, she said.  Has never mentioned it again!

I think you are right Joe, about them being content where they are at and of course God is not drawing them to the truth.

I have directed a few to the BT site and again, never get any feedback. I am so glad to have the forum to be able to at least talk and share w/ like-minded.

PS  The church we left when we found BT we had gone to for over 10 years.  I never once felt compelled to tell the pastor anything...nor have we gotten 1 single call or letter as to what happened or why we left!!  The assistant pastor married our son/daughter in law and my son had told him, but we didn't know that and he never said a word to us.

[Fedex Guy]

Hi all,
I still attend an AG church and it's painful. Instead of saying "Amen", I say to myself "now that's just not right", and I do keep it to myself. I feel a bit hypocritical but I have several motives for attending this particular church. My family and I were attending an Evangelical church which I liked a lot. But something happened in my daughter's school and we had to take her out of the public school. We couldn't afford to send both kids (my son is 6, daughter is to a Christian school but we found one that was affordable. It's a local church school. The only catch is that we had to be members. Am I a hypocrite? I'm doing this for my kids, so they won't be exposed to poison of the public schools. Another reason I stay is my wife seems to like it, and also my brother, who has always been a tough nut to crack (having been involved in a cult for many years) is starting to attend on a regular basis. My mother also likes it, but she would go wherever I go.

One problem is my kids are going to find out soon that I no longer agree doctrinally with the church. They know I'm writting a book (not really a book, just maybe a webpage or something - but it's already 32 pages long), and they sometimes ask questions. I tell them not to tell anyone, but you know how kids are.

[hebrewroots98]

Hi Fedexguy!
What a predicament you are in.  I would say that since you are being bothered by this then that is a sign (from above) that you should do something about it.  I know that is a hared saying, but, there is always homeschooling too.  (This is one reason why I homeschool...to keep Daniel out of the public schools and now the churches altogehter.)  I f you take one step at a time (as the Spirit is leading), then it won't seem so overburdening to you as if you did too many changes all at one time; but then again, who am I to say that maybe the Spirit might want  for you to make alot of changes all at once; only you would know here?.)   I know that it is hard to come out of Babylon all together, especially when you are getting pressure from FAMILY.  They can and will put guilt trips on you if you let them (for leaving the 'church'...)  (I know, mine do), but, hopefully the more that you live the truth in front of them, the more they should see that you are going to stick to your convictions and the more that they will see that you are consitant, stable, and immovable over time.  Just pray for confirmatins as to what you should do.  When the time is right, God will make the way straight for you to go through....who knows once they see the fruits of peace and love for truth in your life, they might want to join your way of thinking too.  Just remember that YOU (not your wife) will be the accountable spiritual covering of your family.  God has a place for everyone to be, and most will stay in Babylon...(narrow is the path to righteousness...)  Sounds like the kids are more receptive right now than the adults?


Let us know the progress brother!  

[Matt]

I went to my old church last week, for my wife's sake.  The pastor spoke about God's sovereignty and how it is only related to ownership  
He used the analogy of a father owning a car.  He said that when his son wants to borrow it, the father has no control as the son drives, but he still owns the car, the son is still responsible for how he drives it. 
NO scripture to back this up by the way (Dad still pays for any accidents too!)
Ray is so right when he says that people just don't believe the word of God.  I feel sad about this.

My wife does not understand very much about the truths we discuss here. 
Every time I try to show her them, she stares at me with that "I will pray for you" look.
She told me that she is praying that I get filled with the holy spirit and start to speak in tongues, etc...
Get me a straight jacket if that happens!

I pray that God reveals Himself to her soon! 

[dch1]

Thank JESUS that I had already been removed from the church i was attending because i know I would have used some scriptural karate to kick my pastor in the gut. I was the minister of worship in my church and my wife was the Secretary. We went weeks not getting paid. all in the name of GOD. sacrificing all. I am a basketball player and needed our money for me to train. I had a workout with the Cleveland cavaliers of the NBA coming up.My wife found out that there had been lies being told by the pastors years before we got there and are still telling everyone there the same thing. the lie is that they want to buy the church. they have been in this location for 8 yrs and have come into millions but they have still not bought the church. Everybody struggling to make it and they are driving around in hummers and such. But every sunday there was a cry for money. My wife found out because she is a very precise in what she does(manager of a loan store). Finance is her thing. When she told me I could not believe it. To make a long story short we ended up almost getting evicted and put on the streets. We have 5 children all under11. Needless to say i went to Cleveland out of shape and did not even make it to the summer league team which is J.V. The coach said i was one of the best basketball players he had ever seen but i was out of shape. And the for me to come home was all we had left because they had still not paid my wife. Oh yea the pastor bought a new boat while i was gone and my wife went to the pastor and asked for her money. he said they did not have it. She had to get napkins from McDonald's to use the bathroom. We are just now coming out of debt and I am now trying to get back in shape. I hope and pray God brings it back around. Those chances don't come everyday. I cried for days and sometimes now But God is so Good. All of this equated to my eyes being opened by the lord to the truth of his word.

[gmik]

My goodness, I will keep you in thought and prayer!

Unbelievable, yet totally believable, what Babylon does to people. It all came down that way for a reason (cavaliers and all-my husband played for UofM and had a tryout w/ the Vikings-got cut after 6 weeks-he cried and was depressed for awhile)  Who knows why things turn out the way they do??  Only God. And its His plan.  Boy, I don't know why it is so tough on you right now.  Hopefully, you will get thru this valley/test soon.

I do pray for your finances and for the direction that God would have you go-HIS WILL.

God Bless You.



Fed Ex and Matt:  It is different in all our situations. We can come out of Babylon and still "go" to a building for our families.  Others feel they can't.  The Lord leads each of us.

I will attend our twins' dedication -if my daughter even tells us about it. She knows how I feel about it. Our entire family went to the same church and we would usually eat out together, shop, whatever afterwards. A whole day affair.  So I know they miss that!  I miss seeing the grandkids every Sunday. But I just can't attend church anymore!  Thats just me.  I was losing interest even before finding BT.

Anyway, Matt, you won't need a straitjacket and Fed ex- it won't be an easy answer but I think the Lord will lead you and you will just know when it is time.  I taught it a Christian school for 11 years and just shut up and overlooked what I didn't believe. It was good overall but not all kids were angels either.  You can teach your kids the truth no matter where they attend.  How not to offend your wife??  Teach them to LOVE JESUS and to LOVE HIS WORD. The rest can come later.

Just MHO....

[Chris R]

We must remember a powerful message given us, and it concerns the good folks that attend the churches of Christendom.

Come out of her MY PEOPLE.....WHAT? Who's people? Christ tells us they are His people.

It is these that are Gods called, realizing only a few are chosen.

How did I end up here at this site? No one told me about it, I didn't get a invitation, i was searching long before I started reading this site, But thank God He led me here.

While it's true, i can no longer attend any church building, or stomach the deadly doctrines of Christendom, I realize one thing, without THAT church, I would have never been looking for the truths taught on Rays site.

It is none other than God himself that drags us to his truths. Quite extraordinary if you ask me.

Chris R

[rjsurfs]

Hello All,

As I look back I was deeply rooted within Babylon since being a young child... my parents even sent me to a hoity-toity christian school growing up.  As a young adult I was driven away occasionally by the hypocrisy... but had no knowledge of the truth strong enough to keep me out for good... I would always wind up back in the system, driven by guilt and hopelessly thinking what else was there afterall.

The last three years in the church I worked very up close and personal with three different ministers... and I mean all day, seven days a week.  I was passionate then to find the truth as I am passionate today in keeping it and securing more.  Being involved as I was and personally close with these pastors I did my arguing and debating prior to a "kick in the stomach"... similar to what Arcturus mentioned.  I found Bible-Truths a good year before leaving the church, although I had not joined the forum at that time... I was quietly studying Ray's paper though on my own... I did not even share Ray's papers with my wife until we came out... about six months after that I joined the forum here.

So by then I had no desire to argue, debate, or even explain my departure... I just left, quietly... and praise God have never looked back... by His goodness.

Good topic Joe... I have considered from time to time what my role could be in assisting the friends I had that are still there.  I realize however that no one could have walked me out but God and that was through the circumstance and experience of it all.  God was certainly the cause... through circumstance and experience that got my brain to working and my feet to moving.

Just to touch on my stand today... Having studied and become convinced that not only is the teachings of the Lake of Fire true... but that the very scriptures of God are true... and that through the first 10 sections of the Lake of Fire, Ray, through God's word has shown me where the very throne of Satan is... within the church... I find absolutely no reason for me to be there.  As a matter of fact, I take very seriously not only my avoidance of the synagogue of Satan but that of my wife and children's as well.  I will not knowingly send my family whom God has given me to lead into a house of a known murderer and deceiver.  I cannot express strongly enough... even if I used ALL CAPS how adamant I am on this subject.  I think often of how blessed I am... I tell my wife all the time... "what are the odds?"... such as I am, God chose to pull me out of that evil... I am very grateful.

Bobby

[hebrewroots98]

AMEN BOBBY, I AM THAT ADAMANT AS WELL; Although, I do know that there are others who differ and who the spirit does not have them all the way out yet for some reason.  I cannot get over the fact while I am there, that THEIR GOD IS NOT THE SAME GOD AS MY GOD!!!  Of course they don't get this and would call me blasphemous, but, it really makes me so spiritually ill to go into one or even be associated with a church for that reason above all othersl.  Of course they do not want to hear that MY GOD WILL NOT SEND HIS PEOPLE TO HELL AS YOUR god WOULD...i

[phazel]

The Lord most definitely uses His own to draw others to Him, we cannot of ourselves choose anyone, but we can provide an example in the way we live our lives and interact with people we come into contact with.

I attend a church right now that I know God is calling me out of.  Despite that,  I have come to the understanding that the church I am in presently is a part of Gods intention.   The myth of free will fascinates me in the fact that as I am typing this I feel like I am in control when in reality, God knew each and every letter I would be typing way before now and designed it to happen.

That said, the illusion of free will is often a cause for us to be in a church and try to change those around us.   What is even more fascinating is I have been influenced to see truth through being in the church I most likely will soon be leaving.

I have been expressing my beliefs in settings where the assumption is discussion knowing that it was far from that reality.  The second I proposed something that wasn't in agreement with the christian "norm" I was argued "at".  I say that simply because my only responce was to seek Gods truth and they didn't have to take my word for it, just because I spoke.   The argument then ends.

The point in all of this is I am glad to have been in the church I am in despite those who I know dislike me because of my beliefs,  because God intended it to happen. 

The reality is that I really only chose to believe this  because God intends for me to think this way right now and maybe it is truth that will stay with me forever.

[Kent]

I have directed a few to the BT site and again, never get any feedback. I am so glad to have the forum to be able to at least talk and share w/ like-minded.

Please dont give up.

I was directed here, through a forum post. It was, IIRC, someone with the screen name of "Bradley", or "Yeldarb" that posted in the defunct Survival Forums board.

You never know who you will affect.

I do debate with people. Not so much to change the persons mind that I am debating with because I know that is futile. But people DO read these posts, people that cannot reconcile churchianities teachings with scriptures.

Just because you dont see results now doesn't mean there are no results at all.
We wont know the results until Christ tells us the results.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Quote from Bobby:

I will not knowingly send my family whom God has given me to lead into a house of a known murderer and deceiver.

That is so precious and so correct! Why would anyone send their child into the house of a murderer who has no truth found in him, from the beginning! Wow! That is like giving Dracular the keys to the blood bank! Or worse. Sacrificing our child to the pagan god Molech!

We know that God is choosing a select few in every age since the Crucifixion over two thousand years ago so we can be assured that The call of our God is to our children "Come out" ! Is is not totally wonderful that via this thread we can HEAR the call of God!

HIS Spirit is facilitating this move away and out of Babylon.It reminds me of David who God said could not build His temple because blood was on Davids hands. So David's son was given the appointment to build HIS Temple. Our children too, are precious in God's sight Plan and Purpose. Is God calling to them to come out through  US the parents who have been in Babylon and who will appreciate our children never having to touch that unclean thing in being separated from the lies of that house from their birth! Why not! I think so!

Ray has said somewhere, that "sin begets sin." Is it not true also that children of God beget children of God? I know that I am not alone here in this Forum as a parent who is teaching my child The Truth.  with early cautions of exposing and refuting what the Church is doing, saying teaching and practising!

What you observed was so well said Bobby! Thank you.

Peace to you brother

Arcturus

[hillsbororiver]

Just because you dont see results now doesn't mean there are no results at all.
We wont know the results until Christ tells us the results.

Amen!

Instant gratification is not something we are promised in the here and now.

I am not saying that we should all go out seeking debate, heaven forbid. Only that we should be consistant in our new lives no matter if we feel appreciated or not.

His Peace to you Kent,

Joe

[dch1]

 

[Fedex Guy]

Of course they do not want to hear that MY GOD WILL NOT SEND HIS PEOPLE TO HELL AS YOUR god WOULD...i

The other night, I was at a church service and the Pastor mentioned a couple young people who died in an accident or something. With tears in his eyes, he said something like "I pray they were saved...." Now I appreciate his compassion and concern....but later I thought how can he believe WE are more compassionate, more loving, more concerned, and more willing to give someone a second chance than the Lord Almighty?