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God AND Jesus Savior

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vicolive:
Hello all
Can someone please direct me to one of Rays teachings on e.g.'Savior'
In the old testamaent God says He is the ONLY  Savior of the world,then when we come to new testamant we know that Jesus in our savior.This is to end a debate Im going through to reveal that God and Jesus are one....and not that they are two separates.
Thank you
Vicolive.

hillsbororiver:
Hi vicolive,

Here is a portion from The Lake of Fire - PART VI

(TWO JUDGMENTS BY FIRE)

http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html

WHO IS THIS MAN, THE CHRIST?

Just Who is Jesus Christ? Many have but a superficial knowledge of the real Jesus. And those who have studied the Scriptures deeply, are but scratching the surface of the real Christ. Jesus Christ is a whole lot more than the humble carpenter from Nazareth, Who was born of a virgin and died on a cross. JESUS CHRIST IS EVERYTHING! Everything that ever was, is, or shall be is found in Christ! He is the very CREATOR, SUSTAINER, AND ALMIGHTY GOD OF THE UNIVERSE. God the Father has never directly made Himself known to humanity. It was Jesus Christ Who came to reveal the Father to mankind.
 
God the Father, "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His SON, Whom He hath appointed HEIR OF ALL THINGS, by whom also He MADE THE WORLDS; Who being the BRIGHTNESS OF HIS GLORY, and the EXPRESS IMAGE OF HIS PERSON, and upholds ALL THINGS BY THE WORD OF HIS POWER, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high" (Heb. 1:2-3).

"Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power or darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of HIS DEAR SON: In Whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD, the firstborn of every creature: For by Him were ALL THINGS CREATED, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS WERE CREATED BY HIM [Jesus Christ], AND FOR HIM [Jesus Christ]:

And He is BEFORE ALL THINGS, and by Him ALL THINGS CONSIST. And He is the HEAD OF THE BODY, THE CHURCH: Who is the beginning, the firstborn form the dead, that in ALL THINGS HE MIGHT HAVE THE PREEMINENCE. For it pleased the Father that IN HIM SHOULD ALL FULLNESS DWELL. And having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to RECONCILE ALL UNTO HIMSELF; by Him, I say, whether in earth or in heaven" (Col. 1:12:20).

"I am Alpha and Omega, the BEGINNING and the ENDING, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY" (Rev. 1:8).

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM: and without Him was not any thing made that was made. IN HIM WAS LIFE; and the life was the light of men" (John 1:1-3).

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham WAS, I AM" (John 8:58). "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and He said, Thus shall thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me to you" (Ex. 3:14).

Jesus Christ was the GOD of the Old Testament! Jesus Christ was JEHOVAH! Moses SAW and HEARD Jehovah, yet John tells us that,

"No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, HE HAS DECLARED HIM" (John 1:18).

Hope this helps.

His Peace to you,

Joe

vicolive:
Thank you so much Joe, that is awesome all that you wrote,Im on my way to read the link.My debate is with JW's they do make it sound so convincing that God and Jesus are two seperate beings.I have been searching now for months for ONE reasoning that will convince them that what I study on here is the truth and the whole truth and then me be done with it.Its not that I want to be a 'told you so in their eyes' but they are kind and gentle people and I dont want to see anyone go down the wrong path if I have a say in it.
thanks again Joe
GB
Vicolive.

hillsbororiver:
Hi again vicolive,

When rereading your original post I thought it would be appropriate to add this from Ray's "Trinity" paper;

 http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html

A "Father" and a "Son" CANNOT ALSO BE THE SAME PERSON!

Countless things can be said to "be ONE" in numerous forms of close relationship. In this close relationship of purpose, will, harmony, etc., our Lord said:

"I and the Father, We are ONE" (John 10:30).

Will all my readers please note that Jesus DID NOT say "I and the Father, We are one GOD," did He? No, He did not!

Do the Scriptures, however, tell us that there is only ONE GOD? Yes, they do.

Do the Scriptures, tell us WHO that ONE God is? Yes, they do.

Do the Scriptures tell us what the relationship of Jesus Christ is with that ONE God? Yes, they do.

In fact, all of these things are answered in ONE Scripture.

I will now give you the ONLY Scripture you will EVER need for understanding Who Jesus Christ and God the Father are and how many Gods there are, and Who composes that ONE God. Here it is:

"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for US there is ONE God, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL IS, and we for Him, and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).

And the next verse says

"But NOT IN ALL is there this knowledge" (Ver. 7)

I can say "Amen" to that. Practically "not in all" Christendom is there this knowledge.

If you have not yet THANKED GOD for making these things so clear, so meaningful, and so simple, DO IT NOW!

The above verse really doesn’t need commentary, but I want to comment anyway.

How many Gods are there? Answer: "ONE God."

Of Whom is this ONE God composed? Answer: "the FATHER." NOT, the Father, AND the Son, AND the holy ghost! Just, "the Father!" ONLY, "the Father!!" "ONE God, the FATHER!"

Is this too hard for anyone? Is not God’s definition far easier and better than the theologians’ "one, plus ONE, plus ONE, equals ONE" nonsense?

Is Jesus Christ an equal part of this "ONE God?" NO, He is not. Let God’s Word tell us. We don’t need to speculate and theorize. Here is Who and What Jesus Christ is, He is the "one LORD." This is not hard. It is only hard for those who wrestle and twist Scripture to their own destruction (II Peter 3:16). John 8:5-6 makes the following very clear:

This Scripture tells us that "ALL IS OUT OF" GOD (the FATHER).

And this Scripture tells us that "ALL IS THROUGH" Jesus Christ.

God the Father is the first cause of all and ALL IS OUT GOD, even Jesus Christ is "OUT of God."

"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).

Now if Jesus came out from the trinity, why doesn’t the Scripture say so? He didn’t come out of the trinity and He didn’t come out of the holy spirit, but HE DID COME, "...OUT FROM THE FATHER!"

And after Jesus Christ came OUT from the Father, ALL ELSE came THROUGH Jesus Christ:

"Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col. 1: 14-17).

Nowhere do we read that God came out from Christ! No, Christ came OUT FROM THE FATHER and all else was created THROUGH Jesus Christ. There is no trinity here!

Jesus Christ is not the SUPREME DEITY. Christ is not the originator of all. Christ is "the Lord." He is the Son of God. He is the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is the Mediator,

For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).

As I said before, one cannot be both "of" something or someone and at the same time "be" that something or someone. There is certainly no trilateral, triune, trinity of God here!

Jesus Christ said,

"...I am going to the Father, for the Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28).

Where do we read that Christ is GREATER than the Father? There is no trinity in this verse!

And again:

"Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself [Jesus Christ] also SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO HIM [God the Father] Who subjects all to Him, that GOD may be All in all."

Where do we read that someday God the Father will be SUBJECT to Christ? There is no trinity in these Biblical truths.

And again:

"Now I want you to be aware that the Head of every man is Christ, yet the head of the woman is the man, yet the Head of Christ IS GOD" (I Cor. 11:3).

Where do we read in Scripture that Christ is the Head of God?

There is another profound statement in the Scriptures that PROVES CONCLUSIVELY that Jesus Christ is not part of a trinity, but is now and always will be, under the Headship of His Father. Here it is:

"...that the GOD OF OUR LORD Jesus Christ, the FATHER..." (Eph. 1:17).

There it is--Jesus Christ HAS A "GOD!" Paul wrote this and all of the above Scriptures AFTER Jesus Christ was resurrected and restored to His previous GLORIES in God. And in His glorified state, Jesus Christ is STILL subjected to HIS GOD! Who wants to be the first blasphemer to even suggest that God the Father "has a God?"!!! But Jesus Christ, DOES have a God! Notice the following:

Eph. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

Col. 1:3: "We are thanking the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

I Pet. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

And remember these statements concerning Jesus Christ "having a God" were made long after His resurrection and restoration back to His former glories. Today, our Lord STILL HAS A GOD! And need I repeat the fact that the God and Father of Jesus Christ DOES NOT HAVE A GOD?! And someone out there still thinks God is a equilateral trinity?

There are many more Scriptures that show the distinction between God the Father’s office of supreme deity of the universe and that of His Son and Image, Jesus Christ the Lord and Mediator.

Peace,

Joe

vicolive:
Again, thanks Joe,  very well placed and explained.I see it,I always believed it to be that way until my door knocked.Thanks for helping me get back in the light.
GB
Vic

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