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Author Topic: The World Is Groaning For It Knows Not What  (Read 3081 times)

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hillsbororiver

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The World Is Groaning For It Knows Not What
« on: January 14, 2008, 08:23:47 PM »

From The Lake of Fire Part XII

(GOD JUDGES THE WORLD IN A POND)

THE WORLD IS GROANING FOR IT KNOWS NOT WHAT

"For the earnest expectation of the creation waits FOR THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD" (Rom. 8:19).

Notice this verse in a few other translations:

"For the EAGER outlook of creation ARDENTLY awaits the revealing of the Sons of God" (The Emphasized New Testament).

"For the LONGING of the creation LOOKS EAGERLY for the time when [the glory of] the sons of God shall be revealed" (The Epistles of Paul by Conybeare).

"All creation is YEARNING, LONGING to see the manifestation of the sons of God" (The New Testament in Modern Speech).

Or the creation waits with EAGER LONGING for the revealing of the sons of God" (The Revised Standard Version).

"THE WHOLE WORLD IS ON TIPTOE to see the wonderful sight of the sons of God coming into their own" (Phillips’ Translation).

To be sure, it is GOD Who is telling us that the whole creation is groaning in earnest expectation. It is groaning for it knows not what, but GOD KNOWS! In other words, God is telling US, who are growing in spiritual truths, what it is that the whole world and indeed the whole creation is in desperate need of—the saving power of the Sons of God. We ARE the BODY OF CHRIST! What Christ does, he DOES THROUGH US!

WHY? Why are they waiting for the manifestation of the Sons of God? Of what value will these Sons be to them? We can see why the Sons themselves would want to be manifested as such with God their Father and Elder Brother Jesus Christ, but why would all the wicked humanity of the entire "CREATION" be "waiting in EARNEST expectation?" What in the world is taking place here?

The church teaches that after all the Sons and Daughters of God are in their glory, the rest of the world will be tortured eternally by real fire in a terrorist hellhole of hopeless doom (never mind the fact that God says "there will be NO MORE DOOM") (Rev. 22:3, Concordant Literal New Testament).

Seriously, when all the Sons and Daughters of God are manifested IN THEIR GLORY, why would the ENTIRE CREATION be awaiting this event with almost uncontrollable bated breath, excitement, and anticipation? WHY? What is it that the churches have never told you? What is God going to do with all these glorified Sons and Daughters?

You have heard enough lies, now let’s read God’s Truth. Here is one of the most profound and all-encompassing Scriptures in the entirety of the Bible:

"For the earnest expectation of the creature [creation] waits for THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD. For the creature [creation] was MADE subject to VANITY [‘…surely, EVERY MAN IS VANITY’-- Psalm 39:11], NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [GOD] Who has subjected the same in HOPE. Because the creature [creation] itself also shall be DELIVERED from the bondage of corruption [corruption includes DEATH] into THE GLORIOUS LIBERTY OF THE CHILDREN OF GOD. For we know that THE WHOLE CREATION GROANS AND TRAVAILS IN PAIN together until now" (Rom. 8:19-22).

WOW! Let me point out a few marvelous things in this verse. Notice the chronological order of things in this Scripture and see how it contradicts the terrible teaching of orthodox doctrine:

First the Sons of God are manifested or shown to be what they really are—SPIRITUAL SONS OF GOD (and DAUGHTERS—II Cor. 6:18)! No longer flesh and blood. No longer subject to the pulls of a carnal mind, but True Sons in the very IMAGE OF GOD and His Son, Jesus Christ.

But what happens next? What happens to all the rest of humanity who are not sons and daughters and are not saved? What will happen to them? Just why, pray tell, are they eagerly awaiting the manifestation of these Sons and Daughters? Of what value is the salvation and manifestation of the few chosen saints to those left behind who are not saved?

The Church teaches the world that the rest of humanity will be tortured for all eternity in the lake of fire. Is that true? Is that the purpose of the lake of fire is?

Next we read what the condition of the rest of humanity is, how they got that way, and what is the solution to the problem.

"For the creature [creation] was made subject to VANITY, not willingly, but by reason of Him who has subjected the same in hope" (Rom. 8:20).

God MADE man subject to vanity. God did not ask man’s permission to do this. God did it for His own wise purpose. But God is not a fiend that takes pleasure in the failures of weak humanity. God did not make man in a condition of vanity so that most of humanity would fail of the ideal, and God would then torture most of his creation eternally, when it was He Who created them weak and subjected them to every form of vanity in the first place. God created the whole creation subject to vanity. It is, therefore, God’s responsibility to get man out of this mess.

God supernaturally made a way for the "manifested Sons of God" to conquer the flesh and the carnal mind and be formed into the very image of God with the very mind of Christ! They will be no longer subject to vanity when they are manifested. They will be no longer subject to "the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION." They will be FREE!

And it is they who will then FREE the rest of humanity from their bondage!
What was the purpose for this subjection to vanity? So that they will eternally fail and God would eternally torture them for their failure? No! Let’s read it:

God has, "subjected the same IN HOPE" (Verse 20). Wait a minute, am I saying that all of humanity, who fail to be in the first resurrection and become the manifest Sons and Daughters of God, will nonetheless still have "hope?" Is there really hope for all the lost and unsaved? How can this be? Aren’t they going to be subjected to the "lake of fire?" Yes, but there is "hope" in the lake of fire. In fact, the lake of fire is their ONLY HOPE! They will not be eternally tortured just because they did not attain to the first resurrection, but will rather be "DELIVERED!" Let’s read it:

 http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html

Peace,

Joe


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joyful1

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Re: The World Is Groaning For It Knows Not What
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2008, 09:02:50 PM »

Joe--
First ...let me say; thanks for taking the time to post these excerpts from Ray's work from time to time...because they always cause one to dig deeper.

My question tonight is this.... you quoted:

For we know that THE WHOLE CREATION GROANS AND TRAVAILS IN PAIN together until now" (Rom. 8:19-22).

I used to read this and think....okay "until now"...so NOW...(when Romans was written) we no longer groan and travail?
Do you see? It can be taken as ....we waited for the postman until now...but now he is here and we no longer wait for him. I kept wondering WHAT happened that Paul thought....the groaning and travailing is OVER?

Did you ever think this way? What do you think it means?
Joyce
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hillsbororiver

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Re: The World Is Groaning For It Knows Not What
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2008, 09:44:37 PM »


Joe--
First ...let me say; thanks for taking the time to post these excerpts from Ray's work from time to time...because they always cause one to dig deeper.


Hi Joyce,

You are very welcome, the rereading of Ray's work has that very result with me, I post these things in the hope it will affect others in the same manner, it does not seem to matter how many times I read this stuff I always come away feeling spiritually recharged and my spirit is comforted spurring me on to continue the journey with peace and joy.


My question tonight is this.... you quoted:

For we know that THE WHOLE CREATION GROANS AND TRAVAILS IN PAIN together until now" (Rom. 8:19-22).

I used to read this and think....okay "until now"...so NOW...(when Romans was written) we no longer groan and travail?
Do you see? It can be taken as ....we waited for the postman until now...but now he is here and we no longer wait for him. I kept wondering WHAT happened that Paul thought....the groaning and travailing is OVER?

Did you ever think this way? What do you think it means?
Joyce

That is a great question, I can see where you are coming from. Rotherham's quotes this a bit differently;

Romans 8:22 For we know all creation is sighing together and travailing in birth throes together, until the present

You will notice Paul did not say it ended only that humanity has always been in this condition since the expulsion from the Garden until the present it had (has) been our state. The one thing that did change was that through the death and resurrection of Christ and the Spiritual manifestation revealed at Pentecost we received the New Covenant, a better promise.

Paul goes on to speak of faith, our hope in this New Covenant through our Lord. If we believe this promise we have received our "earnest" our down payment of the Spirit that will be our entirety at the resurrection.

The OT Prophets did not have this, no one did until Christ died and was raised.


2Co 1:22  Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph 1:14  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

This is only available to those under the New Covenant and although we still groan it is tempered by the faith we have in the hope of Christ's sacrifice for us and His resurrection as an example of what we are to look forward to.

Rom 8:23  And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
 
Rom 8:24  For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
 
Rom 8:25  But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
 
Rom 8:26  Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

I hope this helps a bit.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

 
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hillsbororiver

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Re: The World Is Groaning For It Knows Not What
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2008, 09:03:38 AM »

WHENCE THE WORD LAKE?

Interesting word, this word "lake." The word lake in Rev. 19, 20, & 21 is "limen, which comes from Strong’s "[#3040--limen] (through the idea of nearness of shore); a POND (large or small) -- lake."

And the word limen means "a harbor—haven, the fair havens" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary, p. 151).

A pond? God judges the world in a pond? Yes, God judges every unrepentant, unbelieving, wicked person that has ever lived (billions and billions and billions of people) -- The WHOLE WORLD OF HUMANITY (who are not in the first resurrection)… in a pond. A pond of divine, purifying SPIRIT.

This word limen has the word "fair" before it in Acts 27:8, in the King James Version—the "fair havens." Other translations render this verse as "safe harbor." (My father helped build Safe Harbor Dam in Pennsylvania).

Is not even the definition of this word and its root, comforting? And so even in this most solemn setting of God’s judgment there is a hint of safety and security.

SAFETY AND SECURITY IN THE DIVINE LAKE OF FIRE

Perhaps one reason that God describes this place of judgment as a "pond" or "lake" rather than a "harbor" is because a lake is landlocked, thus preventing a return to the perilous winds and waves of the deep sea from which these occupants have figuratively come:

"And the SEA gave up the dead [spiritually dead people] which were in it…"

This is not speaking of the physical waters of the world’s oceans, however. Remember that just as the "lake of fire" is symbolic in Revelation, "the sea" is likewise symbolic. This is speaking of the SPIRITUALLY DEAD from the great sea of humanity, not the relatively few literal flesh souls who have unfortunately drowned to death in the oceans of the world. Many have also drowned in rivers and other waterways don’t you know.

The very reason that the "fair haven" of Acts 27:12

"…was not commodious [suitable] to winter in…" [is because of its position to the sea] "…the more [majority] part advised to depart thence also if by any means they might attain to Phenice, and there to winter; which is an haven [harbor] of Crete, and lies [opens] toward the south west and north west."

The American Bible Union Version translates this verse:

"was not well situated for wintering in…"

The Living Bible translates this verse:

"And since Fair Havens was an exposed harbor…"

ONLY GOD IS THE SOVEREIGNTY OF THE SEA

Various nations in the past were called "the sovereignty of the sea" because of their great naval domination. But there is only one which is truly the Sovereignty of the sea, and that is God. Forty years ago I cut from a book and pasted into the inside cover of my Bible the following:

"O God, Thy sea is so great and my boat is so small."

This is really a parable of the salvation of the world. The "sea" in Scripture is a symbol for mankind, humanity—the sinning human race. Scripture often speaks of (1) the sea, (2) the earth, and (3) the heaven—the sea being the lowest, and the heaven being the highest.

Remember the Scriptural principle that first comes the physical and then the spiritual. There are many physical types in the Bible that represent spiritual realities.

God saved Noah and his family from the raging waves of the sea in an ark. When we come to understanding spiritual things, we will clearly see that the ark represents Christ. We also have examples of Jesus saving His disciples from the raging waves of the Sea [lake] of Galilee.

"And when He was entered into a ship, His disciples followed Him. And, behold, there arose a great tempest in the sea, insomuch that the ship was COVERED WITH THE WAVES [‘and the waves beat into the ship, so that it was already filling, Mk 4:37]: but He was asleep. And His disciple came to Him, and awoke Him, saying Lord, save us: WE PERISH. And He said unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then He arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea: and there was a great calm. But the men marveled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him!" (Matt. 8:23-27).

Does anyone have the slightest doubt that Jesus possesses the power to calm the sea? Is any man or group of men more powerful than the sea? Then why, oh why, do we allow theologians, clergymen, pastors, preachers, teachers and authors to tell us that Jesus Christ is POWERLESS TO CALM THE SEA OF HUMANITY? That man possesses a raging power of "free will" that even God Himself cannot and will not penetrate or calm? No, my friends, "…the winds and the sea OBEY HIM!"

On another occasion we read this:

"And straightway Jesus constrained His disciples to get into a ship, and to go before Him unto the other side, while He sent the multitudes away… But the ship was now in the midst of the sea, TOSSED WITH WAVES" (Matt. 14:22-24).

In both cases Jesus SAVED His disciples from the raging waves of the sea.

http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

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Kat

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Re: The World Is Groaning For It Knows Not What
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2008, 10:17:01 AM »


Hi Joe,

I thought this would be a good addition to this thread.
It's from the transcript of the Mobile Conference 2005  'What Is The Gospel Of The Kingdom?' 

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6142.0.html ---------

Peter realized that now.  It doesn’t just have to be a Jew, they can be from any nation. 

Acts 10:36  You know the Word which God sent to the sons of Israel, preaching the gospel of peace by Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all!);
v. 37  that word which was published throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
v. 38  how God anointed Jesus Christ with the Holy Spirit and with power, and He went about doing good, and healing all those who were oppressed of the Devil, for God was with Him.
v. 39  And we are witnesses of all things which He did, both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. Whom they slew and hanged on a tree;

This is all part of the gospel.  He is teaching this now to Cornelius.

v. 40  but God raised Him up the third day and showed Him openly,

This is part of the gospel.  Christ was crucified, was dead, rose from the dead.

v. 41  not to all the people, but to chosen witnesses before by God, even to us (Peter was a witness) who ate and drank with Him after He rose from the dead.
v. 42  And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained of God to be the Judge of the quick and the dead.

Oops, how did that slip in there?  Did you notice that?  Did you notice what the gospel is?  Jesus Christ is “the judge of the quick and the dead.”  That is the gospel.  This takes us all the way down to Rev. 22, doesn’t it.  It certainly does.  This thing of judgment is part of the gospel… Judge of the quick and the dead. 
Now John says that as Christ is, so are we.  Christ is the judgment.  Guess what?  So are we. 

1Cor 6:2  Do you not know…

Who is the you?  Corinthians.  Who are the Corinthians?  The chosen, these are uncircumcised in flesh, circumcised in the heart, in spirit… Gentiles.  They are the kingdom of God, these are the heavens where God’s Spirit dwells and He says unto them.

1Cor 6:2 …that the saints shall judge the world? 

That’s the gospel.  Jesus Christ was appointed for that thing, to be the judge of the quick and the dead and as Christ is so are we.  Guess what?  We are to judge the world.  Well of course, we are going to rule them with a rod of iron.  That is how we are going to start out in the kingdom of God on this earth, over the nations of the world, in what’s called the millennium or the thousand year reign. 

Rom 8:22  And we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now.

The whole world.  If you have any doubts about that, just turn on the evening news.  If it’s not the weather; the hurricanes, the earthquakes, then it’s wars and terrorist.  Now they are burning down Paris, for eight days straight.  This is always been the condition of the world.  They say the history of mankind is a chronicle of wars.  Man is either in war, coming out of war or preparing for the next war.

Rom 8:19  For the earnest expectation of the creation waits…

This whole world, this whole creation is groaning and travailing in pain.  Is waiting for what?

Rom 8:19 …for the manifestation of the sons of God.

That’s us, the sons of God or the kingdom of God.  They are the heavens in which the Spirit of God dwells and will rule the nations.

Obadiah 1:21  And saviors shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mountain of Esau (this is them); and the kingdom shall be the Lord’s.

The “saviors” are going to rule from mount Zion, not over there in that ugly swill of a city called Jerusalem.  But from spiritual mount Zion.  He is going to rule “them,” Esau is them, “and the kingdom shall be the Lord’s.”  What kingdom?  The kingdom of what, in this context?  Kingdom of saviors, plural saviors.  Who are these saviors?  That’s us, we’re saviors.  Well this sounds a little odd, I mean we’re saying we’re going to be the saviors of the world.  Well we do have a leader though, King of kings, Lord of lords, Savior of saviors and Son of sons.  We’re sons right, He’s the Son of the sons.  He will always have a name superior to every other one.
--------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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hillsbororiver

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Re: The World Is Groaning For It Knows Not What
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2008, 10:44:40 AM »



The “saviors” are going to rule from mount Zion, not over there in that ugly swill of a city called Jerusalem.  But from spiritual mount Zion.  He is going to rule “them,” Esau is them, “and the kingdom shall be the Lord’s.”  What kingdom?  The kingdom of what, in this context?  Kingdom of saviors, plural saviors.  Who are these saviors?  That’s us, we’re saviors.  Well this sounds a little odd, I mean we’re saying we’re going to be the saviors of the world.  Well we do have a leader though, King of kings, Lord of lords, Savior of saviors and Son of sons.  We’re sons right, He’s the Son of the sons.  He will always have a name superior to every other one.



Hi Kat,

Excellent addition, thank you.

His Peace to you,

Joe


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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: The World Is Groaning For It Knows Not What
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2008, 05:24:01 PM »

Another great thread Joe.

I find interesting that THE WORLD is groaning and waiting for the manifestation of the SONS of God and the SONS of God are not waiting for themselves to be revealed but for Christ to be! :D 8)

Heb 9 : 28 Even so it is that Christ, having been offered to take upon Himself and bear as a burden the sins of many once and once for all, will appear a second time, not to carry any burden of sin nor to deal with sin, but to bring to full salvation those who are eagerly, constantly, andpatiently waiting for and expecting Him. (Amplified version)

What also strikes me is the teaching out of Rays PRAYING BY GOD’S RULES

http://bible-truths.com/praying.htm

Let’s now understand this most profound truth. It isn’t just that, "…we know not what we should pray for as we ought…" No, it is much more profound then just that, it is that "….for we know not what we should pray for, to accord with what MUST BE, we are not aware…" Why does the spirit aid our infirmity? What is our infirmity? Our infirmity is that we don’t know what to pray for that will absolutely always be in accord with what must be God’s will, and God’s will is "what must be." And since none of us has perfect foreknowledge of what God’s will must be, God’s spirit aids those who are obedient to Him, in requesting and praying about, the right things, so our prayers aren’t in vain.

For me, the world does not know what it should pray for. Only the Spirit of Christ can guide anyone to pray for the Will of God as only the Spirit of Christ knows what is in accord with the will of God as only HE has perfect knowledge of God the Father.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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hillsbororiver

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Re: The World Is Groaning For It Knows Not What
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2008, 08:50:16 AM »


I find interesting that THE WORLD is groaning and waiting for the manifestation of the SONS of God and the SONS of God are not waiting for themselves to be revealed but for Christ to be! :D 8)


Beautiful Arcturus, that pretty much sums it up Sister!

It is really comforting to contemplate that through all the trials and tribulations of life in this world, in this flesh we have our Lord right there with us, we need to remember even in the darkest hours we are not alone.


JESUS CHRIST IS OUR COVERING

We just read where the Apostles were on a boat on the sea of Galilee and were, "…COVERED with waves…" I see another type here. What do the "raging waves of the sea" symbolize?

Jude tells us that, "filthy dreamers," who "defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities," "brute beasts," those who have "gone the way of Cain," and are after "the error of Balaam," and those who "perished in the gainsaying of core," these are "spots in your feasts of charity … RAGING WAVES OF THE SEA…" (Jude 8-13).

Say, did you notice where these "filthy dreamers, brute beasts, raging waves of the sea" are located. That’s right—IN THE CHURCH. These evil people are eating right along with the rest in the Church’s "feasts of charity." These are those who, "say they are apostles [of Christ], and are not," and those who, "say they are Jews [spiritual Jews -- converted Christians], and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan."

The disciples were literally "covered with waves" of the sea, but they were also covered with the "raging waves of the sea" spoken of in Jude, because they were, as yet, unconverted.

Actually, the Sea of Galilee is really a lake, also called, The Lake of Gennesar [et] and Lake Tiberias. Jesus Himself called Galilee a "lake" (Luke 8:22). Notice that the carnality of man symbolized in "covered with waves" (raging waves of the sea) needed salvation—"Lord save us, WE PERISH." What did Jesus become to His disciples at that very instant? Answer: "a covering shelter." Whereas they were covered by the raging waves of the sea, Jesus now became their "covering."

Jesus SAVED His disciples from the "raging waves of the sea that covered them," in the middle of the Sea [lake] of Galilee. But this was a literal physical event. They were not spiritually converted as yet, but this event pointed to just such a conversion of the spirit. Will not Jesus also become a "covering shelter" for others? If so, for whom, and for how many?

JESUS CHRIST IS THE COVERING SHELTER
OF THE WHOLE WORLD

"And He [Jesus] is the propitiation [Greek: hilasmos, signifies "an expiation, a means whereby sin is COVERED and remitted" Strong’, p. 121] for our sins: and not for ours only, but also FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD" (John 2:2).

It may come as a surprise to realize that Jesus started His work of propitiation in a "lake"—the Lake of Galilee, and He will finish His work of propitiation in another lake, "the Lake of Fire."

In Romans 3:25 we read:

"Whom God has set forth to be a PROPITIATION through faith in His blood to declare His righteousness for the remission [passing over of] sins that are past, through the forbearance of God."

In Heb. 9:5 this same word hilcsterion (propitiatory) is used for the COVERING LID OF THE ARK. Jesus Christ IS the ark. When the disciples were "covered by the raging waves of the sea" Jesus Christ became their "covering," and (physically) SAVED THEM!

In Hebrew, "haven" comes from cowph, and it means "to COVER; a cove (as a sheltered bay, Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary p. 32).

Jesus not only "propitiates—COVERS," He IS the Covering, "…IS the Propitiation…" (I John 2:2). Likewise, "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever," does not just "cover" IN the lake of fire: HE IS THE LAKE OF FIRE! Jesus Christ IS the Judge of the world, and the world is Judged not only BY Jesus Christ, but IN Jesus Christ.

These words and their meanings that God chooses for our understanding are not accidental coincidences. Every word of God is purified to perfectly fit its application:

"The WORDS of the Lord are PURE WORDS: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times" (Psalm 12:6).

Do any really believe that God wants to play just one more insane cruel joke on the majority of humanity which are supposedly destined to an eternity of torture in fire, by telling us that this insane pit of torture is going to take place in a SHELTERED PLACE OF SAFETY? Is God Almighty going to torture the majority of humanity in a place He jeeringly calls: a pond, a lake, a "SHELTERED PLACE OF SAFETY?"

It is true that, "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God" (Heb. 10:31), but that does not negate the fact that there is also "safety, shelter, and covering" in God’s Divine Pond of Spiritual purifying FIRE.

http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

« Last Edit: January 16, 2008, 10:32:42 AM by hillsbororiver »
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joyful1

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Re: The World Is Groaning For It Knows Not What
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2008, 11:49:46 AM »

:D wow! good thread guys! I think I see what you are saying: that at that time Paul was saying that the whole world was groaning and travailing "until now" ....but NOW (which was then)...at least the believers SAW the GREAT LIGHT and UNDERSTOOD that the Saviour had come! And Paul understood that the elect had come into the world as well....something that could NOT have happened UNTIL NOW (which was then!)...by that I mean...the elect had begun to appear at that time.  Now a baby is born head first....and the head of THE CHRIST, Jesus, was born...first fruits....and the process is ongoing....in us individually and in the world as the Christ is being born (hands, arms, chest, abdomen, legs, etc. we are all different PARTS of the Body)... into the world for the future reign.

Is this CLOSE?

:D
Joyce
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hillsbororiver

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Re: The World Is Groaning For It Knows Not What
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2008, 12:05:35 PM »


I think I see what you are saying: that at that time Paul was saying that the whole world was groaning and travailing "until now" ....but NOW (which was then)...at least the believers SAW the GREAT LIGHT and UNDERSTOOD that the Saviour had come! And Paul understood that the elect had come into the world as well....something that could NOT have happened UNTIL NOW (which was then!)...by that I mean...the elect had begun to appear at that time.  


Yes Joyce,

The "until now" can also apply to each and every one of us at the moment (in our/their own lifetime) that come to this realization!

Paul's generation was the first to receive this wonderful New Covenant but every (called/chosen) believer who came after that time has their own personal Eureka! moment in regard to this incredible Truth.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
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hillsbororiver

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Re: The World Is Groaning For It Knows Not What
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2008, 10:48:50 AM »

THE SAINTS SHALL JUDGE THE WORLD

The called and chosen were born to be Judges:

"Or are you not aware that the saints [the manifested Sons and Daughters of God] shall JUDGE THE WORLD? And if the world shall be judged by YOU, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?" (I Cor. 6:2).

"And I saw thrones and they sat upon them, and JUDGMENT was given unto them [the saints, the manifested Sons of God]…" (Rev. 20:4).

Every man will be judged and the Saints will do the judging:

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it: and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were JUDGED EVERY MAN according to their works" (Rev. 20:13).

JUDGES, LORDS, PRIESTS AND KINGS

The called and chosen were born to be Judges, Lords, Priests and Kings:

"If we suffer, we shall also REIGN with Him…" (II Tim. 2:12).

"And has made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall REIGN on the earth" (Rev. 5:10).

We are the church of the Living God, and what is the church in relation to Christ?

"And has put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be the Head over all things to the church, Which IS HIS BODY, the fullness of Him that fills all in all" (Eph. 1:22-23).

"For we are members of HIS BODY, OF his flesh, AND OF his bones… This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and THE CHURCH [the heavenly, not the carnal church]" (Eph. 5:30 & 32).

Whatever Christ does, WE DO ALSO, because we ARE HIS BODY! Yes, WE, the manifest Sons and Daughters of God, will JUDGE THE WORLD!

But are the saints ready, equipped, and experienced to actually judge the world by the mere fact that they accept Jesus as the Priest, Lord, King, and Judge of the world? We are part of this world until God takes us out of it. We too have need of a Priest, a Lord, a King, and a Judge.

All too many Christians accept Jesus as their Priest, Lord, King, and Judge in ceremony only. In fact, I doubt that many accept Jesus as their "JUDGE" even in a ceremonial way, let alone by actual experience OF that judgment in their daily lives.

We must first be judged ourselves if we are to became the judges of the great sea of humanity.

http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html

Peace,

Joe
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joyful1

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Re: The World Is Groaning For It Knows Not What
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2008, 01:26:45 PM »

Joe--
Just clarifying:

we do judge now-- ourselves
we do judge now-- heresay
we do judge now-- "the things that pertain to this life"

but (and this is the scary part) if we are to judge others...this would only be in the Lake of Fire later, right? Because, in essence, we become PART of that lake of fire, right?

From Lake of Fire Part 12 : God Judges The World In A Pond
Therefore, we, the Saints, the Body of Christ, the consuming fire ministers of God, the saviours of Mt. Zion, the manifested Sons and Daughters of God, along with our Head, Jesus Christ, also ARE THE LAKE OF FIRE!

THERE IS NO LITERAL LAKE, AND THERE IS NO LITERAL FIRE. Jesus Christ and His Body of Saints ARE THE LAKE OF JUDGING, PURIFYING, CONSUMING SPIRITUAL FIRE!!!

The lake of fire is a metaphor written in symbols that stand for what is being symbolized, not the symbols themselves. The lake of fire is composed of Jesus Christ the Judge of the world, Christ’s divine spiritual fire and brimstone, and the Sons of God who are the body of Christ who are also FLAMES OF FIRE (Heb. 1:7).

And the whole world will be judged BY US! After death, all the dead will be resurrected, they will all be judged, they will have to pass through the purifying lake of fire, they will have to PASS THROUGH US! WE will be their judge along with our Lord.

"Know ye not that the SAINTS SHALL JUDGE THE WORLD?"
===================================
Now just one quick note of mine for consideration:

a question about the word "PART"  :

EVERYONE eventually becomes PART of the Lake of Fire, right?

"But the fearful [timid], and unbelievers, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers [paramours], and sorcerers [enchanters], and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Rev.21:8 )


Joyce





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hillsbororiver

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Re: The World Is Groaning For It Knows Not What
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2008, 02:38:10 PM »


we do judge now-- heresay



Hi Joyce,

I am not sure what you are asking here.


we do judge now-- "the things that pertain to this life"

but (and this is the scary part) if we are to judge others...this would only be in the Lake of Fire later, right?



We do (or should) be judging words, statements, doctrines, situations and actions but not the elect status or really any portion of our brothers and sisters spiritual destiny.

For the present we judge activities but in the next age the elect will judge (correct, teach, chastise, etc.) those who experience the second death for the sole purpose of bringing them to the salvation which is Christ.


 
Now just one quick note of mine for consideration:

a question about the word "PART"  :

EVERYONE eventually becomes PART of the Lake of Fire, right?

"But the fearful [timid], and unbelievers, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers [paramours], and sorcerers [enchanters], and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Rev.21:8 )



Yes, everyone will be a part of the Lake of Fire but some will be in different roles, some will be the Spiritual Fire (Christ and His elect) and others will have their carnal nature consumed by it and their spiritual nature burnished (made strong) by it.

The elect have a part of the LOF like the fire in a burning forest has a part in a "forest fire" the fire itself may grow stronger but it is still fire, the forest will be dramatically changed by this fire. As in a major forest fire it cannot be quenched until it has burned itself out by consuming all the combustibles.

I hope this helps a bit.

His Peace and Wisdom to you Sister,

Joe
 

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Kat

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Re: The World Is Groaning For It Knows Not What
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2008, 07:55:41 PM »


Hi Joe,

I liked that analogy of a burning forest, with the world as the forrest, Christ and the Elect as the fire and the trees are all of the rest of humanity. 
I can kind of see how it might be, with Christ and the Elect judging.  I think I can understand how they will have their carnal nature consumed by the fire/Elect.  The world will then be governed by Christ and the Elect, and there will be no place for anyone to hide from them.  I can see how it would be a greivous thing to have your every action scrutinized.  I guess that must be the fire of judgment, because nobody will be able to get away with anything.

Isa 30:20  And Jehovah gives you the bread of adversity and the water of affliction; yet your teachers shall not be removed into a corner any more, but your eyes shall see your teachers.
Isa 30:21  And your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying, This is the way, walk in it, when you turn to the right hand and when you turn to the left.

Just trying to put together some thoughts on this.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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hillsbororiver

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Re: The World Is Groaning For It Knows Not What
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2008, 08:49:14 AM »

Great points Kat,

We know it is going to be an intense experience and praise God the results will be glorious!

We also know that it will not be pleasant, for a time.


Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
 
Rev 9:6  And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Whoa! Imagine that.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: The World Is Groaning For It Knows Not What
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2008, 04:05:04 PM »

Hi Joe

I believe that those who desire death in "those days" will be those resurrected to judgment who have lived in the law of death during their life times, meaning that they were rebellious and rejected knowing God. In the resurrection they will desire consummation with death as the conclusion to their lives lived in error and this will be denied them. Rather like a baby wanting the candy and it will be denied.

I have so enjoyed the message of hope in Ray's teaching on "What Is The Gospel Of The Kingdom?"

Quote : You are the seed of Jesus Christ, you are of this Israel of God, like Paul talked about in Galatians.

Gal 6:16  And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them and upon the Israel of God.


For me this means that learning to live according to the rule of life, we find peace and mercy.  8)

Peace to you brother

Arcturus :)
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