Raised

[musicman]

Tell your friend, if you are to receive grace now, then you must be judged now.  I'm not entirely sure that the two are any different.

[jackson]

I think that was his point...at least thats how I took it.

Grace is after all the consequence of judgement for those who repent.

[Kat]

Hi Jackson,

You've got me to thinking about grace now  

In your post you say;

Grace is after all the consequence of judgement for those who repent.

I'm thinking grace works with judgment, not after.
I looked through some of Ray's email to help get clarity on this.
I have pulled out a few excerpts that help explain this to me.

http://bible-truths.com/email13.htm#zender ----------------

"For the GRACE of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, TEACHING US [image that, 'grace' is a VERB THAT DOES SOMETHING--IT TEACHES US SOMETHING. What?...] ...TEACHING US that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, RIGHTEOUSLY, AND GODLY, in this present world" (That again would be, The Apostle Paul to Titus, Titus 2:11-12).

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2538.0.html -------

I have taught for many years now that grace is both a noun and a verb. As a noun it is the state of being blessed and gifted with favor from God. This is not anything that one can earn or deserve.  But grace is also used as a verb, in that it does something:  "For the GRACE of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men TEACHING us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly, righteously and godly, in this present world" ( Titus 2:11-12).

http://bible-truths.com/email10.htm#reincarnation ----

What about GRACE?  It is GRACE that trains, teaches, and CHASTISES us so that we should be "disowning irreverence and worldly desires" (Titus 2:11). Grace does not "take all these things AWAY for us" but rather disciplines and chastises these things OUT OF US. It is a process, it takes time, and it is not always pleasant.  You WILL become a kinder person as God continues to chastise you by means OF His Grace.
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Just thought I would bring this to the conversation  

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[jackson]

Kat, I see your point .  Maybe I am blurring the line between grace and salvation.  Thanks for the admonishment .

I think I was understanding grace more as a noun (a state of being blessed and gifted with favor from God).  That sounds alot like forgivness...is it the same thing

I'm sorry if I'm throwing this discussion off track.  If not for ignorance I wouldn't have much.

Jackson

[Kat]

Hi Jackson,

Well it is a gift of God, but it is given so that we will use it.
Ray gave a Biblestudy where he spoke a lot on this, here is an excerpt.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5417.0.html ----------

Grace is a gift, but it's got to be USED.  Listen when something influences something, that means it does something.  If you are inspired about something, you either think or write or do something, that's the proof of the inspiration.  So if something influences you it makes you think, say, do, work or something, are there is no influence.  We just read that faith is divine influence upon the heart and that grace teaches us, the same that judging chastens us.  It's the same Greek word.  It's interesting it says in Eph. 2:8, "for we are saved by grace...."  Well that's great, that's wonderful (period).  No, no period, comma, "....THROUGH FAITH."   Well shucks, we're saved by grace....through faith, okay.  Well what does that mean?  'Through' is a channel. 
v
v
Eph 2:8  for by grace (a gratuitous gift - divine influence upon the heart) are you saved through faith(believing and doing God's will); and that (faith) not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
v. 9  not of (our) works, less any man should boast (you boast when you do your own works).
v. 10  For we are HIS workmanship (His achievement - His works),

Do you get that?  Where it says "not of works," but "for good works"   Wait a minute is that a contradiction?  No, "not of (our) works" but "for (His) good works."  There are works, they're just not ours.  But we are of His workmanship.  Workmanship has the word 'work.'  The Concordant translates it 'achievement.'  When you want to achieve something it takes work.  Who's doing the work here?  God is doing the work.  What is that work?  Divine influence upon the heart and then you do things. 

Eph 2:10  "... created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God has afore ordained that we should walk in them."

So there are works.

Rom 8:28  "And we know that God WORKS all (things), together for the good..."  Verse 29 "....predestined us to be conformed into the image of His Son."

That is the whole thing.  What is the purpose of works?  To be conformed into the image of His Son.  What image is that?  The image of God.  So what is it that God is creating humanity in?  His image.  Was it completed?  No, it was not good, it was not so.  But it will be one day.  One day it will be so and it will be good.  God is changing the carnal physical human mind into His spiritual divine mind.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

[jackson]

So, grace is not a consequence of judgement but rather a process of the judging brought on by God's gift of faith through which He inspires us to honest and heart-felt scholarship, workmanship and fellowship in order that we will be "raised"(brought up and/or brought back) in His image.

How'm I doin' so far?

Jackson

[Kat]

Hi Jackson,

Oh I think we are really getting to it now.
I found this in the Biblestudy on Grace.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5417.0.html ----

Titus 2:11  "For the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men,
v. 12  Teaching us...."

What is doing the teaching?  Grace is doing the teaching.  It's laboring - it's teachings - it's the divine influence of God on our heart, it's teaching us.  So it's (verse 12), "TEACHING us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world (eon - age);"

So when it says God judges us by chastening us in 1 Cor. 11: 32, the word chasten there is the Greek word 'paideuō.'  Then when God says He graces us, by 'teaching us' in Titus 2:12, the word teaching is the same word paideuo and it means - to labor, to work, to chasten, to punish, to teach, to educate.  There is like a dozen different words that this means, this 'teaching.'  That's what it does, it actually does something.  And the same way what it does for us, it will eventually do for the world.

Now that verse tells us that teaching us, denies ungodliness and so on.  That one word alone covers everything good and righteous, that we could ever do or think.  I mean if it's godly it's right and good, it's all in that one word.  Notice that this is a godly man, that says it all, I mean if he really is godly, he's God like.  You can't be God like and Satan like at the same time, you know that does not fit.  So this is a remarkable thing that grace teaches - educates - punishes if necessary - schools us - programs us and it teaches us to live godly- soberly - justly and righteously.  The grace of God teaches us to do all those things and God says His judgments chastens us.  It's the same list of things, it's the same chastening - gracing, they are the same thing.
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I think that is what you are saying.
I am so enjoying this discussion with you 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Phil3:10]

To All,
This is real meat and I am still on spiritual milk. I feel the elect (very elect) are so much more righteous, holy and spiritual. They are so much above my carnal self that there is no comparison. My simple mind cannot conceive the righteouness and stature of the elect and their very special relationship with our LORD.  I do believe they will be in the first resurrection and will judge the rest of mankind with the righteousness that GOD will bring to all the earth. The many will be judged in the Great White Throne Judgement, and that is good.  I fear that most all of mankind will be in the GWTJ and have their experience in the Lake of Fire. How much do we really love CHRIST, how much have we suffered for HIM, how long will it take to prepare us to really know HIM the way HE desires? In this fleshly carnal body I am not to sure many of us are qualified until we are spiritually changed to be like HIM. It is just HIM!
Phil3:10

[jackson]

Well, what do ya know!  Sometimes when that horse is lead to water he does drink!

Thanks Kat!

Now if we tie this back into the original topic, the Scriptues are not as much describing a physical raising from the dead in as much as they are proclaiming a spiritual raising.  We are all born into the sin of Adam of which the result is death.  But in this sence not a physical death(although that is a possability of sin) but rather a spiritual death.  So we are born in the image of the spiritualy bankrupt Adam("...sown a natural body..." 1 Cor. 15:44) but we are being raised by grace(teaching, educating, punishing, schooling, programming, chastening...in short judgement) through faith givin as a free gift from the Holy Spirit which is Jesus Christ so that we may be crucified(spiritualy) and reborn(spiritualy) in the image of God("...it is raised a spiritual body." 1 Cor. 15:44).

I think that about sums it up.


In His Grace,
Jackson

[jackson]

Hey Phil, sorry for posting on top of you like that.

1 John 3:14  "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers."

Don't short-change yourself...I feal your love!!!

Jackson

[Beverley]

That is so very true..I can relate to that.

Coconutbev

[Deborah-Leigh]

John 3 : 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

We understand and know that non are "born again" and non are saved now in this life time. This is the insight and teaching here in BT.  There are no elect here in this age and no one is has yet been birthed into the Kingdom of God except for Jesus Christ.

Excerpt from Re: Esther - The Destiny of Women http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5506.0.html

Quote in blue font :

....no human being born of a human father has ever made it into the kingdom of God, not one.  Jesus Christ born of His heavenly Father, but no human being has ever made it into the kingdom of God, yet.  Some are qualified and are sleeping on it, but nobody has made it yet, not one person.


Unquote...

Also what a spirit body IS, we DO NOT KNOW, Beloved, now are we sons of God, and IT DOES NOT YET APPEAR what we shall be; but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is. 1 John 3:2

We have the example of Jesus Christ being able to change from one nature of being human to another nature of being spiritual.

Angels too can be present yet invisible. They can also minister visibly.  Elisha's servant at first did not see that they were surrounded all about by chariots of fire.

The angel was invisible to Balaam but his donkey saw the Angel. 

Angels can also appear in human form as they did to Abraham who had a supper prepared for them of which they ate.

An angel appeared to Gideon as a man.

Luke 24 : 39  See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself! Feel and handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see that I have.

I have no problem with a Resurrection to the flesh as reserved for those who need further judgment to learn righteousness when His Judgements are in the EARTH. I have no problem with the first Resurrection that precedes that of all others because through this class all others are to be blessed. Heb 11 : 40 ..God had US in mind and had something better and greater in view for US, so that they (OT heroes and heroines of faith) should not come to perfection apart from us.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[indianabob]

To All,
This is real meat and I am still on spiritual milk. I feel the elect (very elect) are so much more righteous, holy and spiritual. They are so much above my carnal self that there is no comparison. My simple mind cannot conceive the righteouness and stature of the elect and their very special relationship with our LORD.  I do believe they will be in the first resurrection and will judge the rest of mankind with the righteousness that GOD will bring to all the earth. The many will be judged in the Great White Throne Judgement, and that is good.  I fear that most all of mankind will be in the GWTJ and have their experience in the Lake of Fire. How much do we really love CHRIST, how much have we suffered for HIM, how long will it take to prepare us to really know HIM the way HE desires? In this fleshly carnal body I am not to sure many of us are qualified until we are spiritually changed to be like HIM. It is just HIM!
Phil3:10

Dear Friend,
It is good to experience the MILK of God's word and to grow into the MEAT of His word.
Please allow me to add that the 'fear' lessens with every day as we learn God's holy purpose. 

Any fear felt by the new student soon changes to AWE and REVERENCE and an excited desire to learn more, which is a much more comfortable human emotion and which leads to complete trust and love that then eliminates fear. 
The idea that MOST all of mankind will be in the GWTJ surely will turn out the same way.  Those who died apart from God's service whether they were adults or children will soon be comforted with TRUE knowledge and learn in their struggles to place their trust and faith in God's daily help. 

They will surely stumble along the way and learn by doing, but I don't believe that the process has to be overly long for any of them.  The reason that the process takes as long as it does in this phase is that Satan is still influencing all human activity.  When Satan is put away and God's truth is taught everywhere and there is 'one language' throughout the whole world, progress can be accelerated to whatever pace Christ chooses.

As an illustration suppose that Jesus and his elect spend the first several years/decades cleaning up the environment leading those who remain or are present on the earth at that time.  The start of that age could be the opportunity to restore the earth to its former beauty and grandeur in preparation for the spiritual work to come.  There will be a general cross section of people of all ages and backgrounds and they will learn first hand that God is love.

I won't say that this idea is specifically supported in scripture, but God did begin with a perfect earth and commanded the first couple to have dominion over it and to dress and keep it.  Surely it is within God's character to restore the beauty that once was, so that all the oppressed and all who have suffered during the thousands of years gone by would be able to see first hand what God had intended from the beginning.

Those such as my Mother and Dad, who are raised in the GWTJ will not have any sensation of loss for not being in the first resurrection.  Their reward will be greater than anything they could ever imagine in their first life.

No one who is the beneficiary of the work of Christ Jesus, even though the path was difficult, will afterwards consider it anything but a wonderful blessing.  Any pain they or we have endured will be gradually or even quickly erased from our conscious mind.  Perfect love cast out ALL fear.

The next age will be one of loving correction; both of the garden of God physically and of His wayward children who will come to see their Lord and their savior as he IS because we all will be like him.

Bob