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Author Topic: Raised  (Read 6156 times)

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  • Guest
« on: January 19, 2008, 05:38:02 AM »

In email responses from Ray, the question is answered by Ray pointing out 1 Cor 15:42-54 to bring light as to who will be raised to a spiritual body and who will not.

It was refreshing to see the clarity and simply uncluttered answer given to what can be a most baffling question!

The link is,6244.0.html

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

Chris R

  • Guest
Re: Raised
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2008, 08:16:17 AM »

Hi Deb

 Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection So yes, while there is mention of a first ressurection, a simple deduction would allow us to believe there is a second resurrection.

The only thing that could be misunderstood, is the parable, "one thousand years" All through the scriptures the phrase "The Day Of The Lord" is used, I am not certain if all that happens takes place in a day, or many days, or many years.

The Scriptures point out that there are those resurrected to Glory, and those resurrected to judgment, There is the parable in which the world moans and trevails "anticipating" the manifistation [revealing] of these saints.

Peter described this thousand years, so that we are not "ignorant" of the fact, a Day to the Lord is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like a day.

For me, i agree with Ray, but as to the length of time this all takes place, i havent a clue.

Chris R



  • Guest
Re: Raised
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2008, 08:46:52 AM »

Hi Chris

I too have been pondering the fact that we are still being made into God's image and it is not a done deal yet. So could it follow that the process of resurrection is also in a time frame and process? I think so. Like judgement on the house of God NOW has been going on ever since the death and resurrection of Christ. Does the Day Of The Lord  follow AFTER the judgement on the House of God is complete? I think so.

As for a "second resurrection" this scripture occurs to me where Jesus said I am The Resurrection and the Life There can be no second Jesus or second resurrection. The Resurrection is a Title of Jesus Christ just as God is a title of Christ who is God the Son.

As I am seeing things now, for me, The Day Of The Lord, no matter how long it is, it will have a start and an end. We know that the wrath of God will end and His Judgements in the earth will teach the people righteousness. His Judgements will succeed.

I believe that the Judgment on the House of God NOW  that began over 2000 years ago, is a prelude to that Judgement in the Day Of The Lord. When that Judgement comes to the earth, then it will be fulfilled what Jesus said in  John 5 : 28 ...the time is coming when all those who are in the tombs shall hear His voice 29 and shall come out A)those who have done good, unto the Resurrection of Life B) they that have done evil, unto The Resurrection of damnation.

How long this will take I too do not know. That it will happen, we can know for sure! :)

Also Ray made note of the fact iin his latest conference that

 Rev. 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished* is not Scripture and is not in the Scriptures.,4470.0.html which makes things alot easier to understand! :D

Peace to you brother

Arcturus :)

« Last Edit: January 19, 2008, 08:54:59 AM by Arcturus »


  • Guest
Re: Raised
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2008, 01:50:58 PM »

Hi all,

This too is an area I've been tryign to sort out. Just a few questions.

Is the day of the lord (1000 years) of judgmment for unbelievers and the kingdom reign one and the same time period?

Does this mean that when the elect are resurrected with spiritual bodies the non elect are also raised with physical bodies at the same time for the same period of a 1000 years?

If so is it in this 1000 years that Christ and His elect reign over the world to bring the world to righteousness through judgment?

If this is all true than this falls in line with the first judgment here and now begginning at the house of God. Then the dead will rise, some to aionios death (judgement) and others to aionios life (reigning with Christ through the kingdom age).

My understanding of the usage of the word "aionios" fits in perfect with this. That is that the word aionios is not merely an age in general but a specific age that always refers to the kingdom.

Any thoughts or comment or corrections?

God bless, Dave
« Last Edit: January 19, 2008, 01:54:52 PM by Truth101 »


  • Guest
Re: Raised
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2008, 02:52:14 PM »

As I understand this, when Paul was addressing the Romans he pointed out that there would be a time when the gathering of the Gentiles would be finalized and then those who were hardened and insensitive to the Truth, they would then be saved also.

Does the following Scripture define the division between the Called and the Chosen as in those who are chosen through each generation underjudgment on the House of God NOW, and those who will be purified in the reign of Christ through the LOF on The Day Of The Lord? I believe so.

Romans 11 : 25 Lest you be self-opinionated, I do not want you to miss this hidden truth and mystery, brethren: a hardening has befallen a part of Israel to last until the full number of the in-gathering of the Gentiles has come in. 26. And so all Israel will be saved. As it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will banish ungodliness from Jacob....31 So they also now are being disobedient, when you are receiving mercy, that they in turn may one day, through the mercy you are enjoying, also receive mercy, that they may share the mercy which has been shown to you - through you as messengers of the Gospel to them.  32 For God has consigned all men to disobedience, only that He may have mercy on them all.

Knowing that  Rev. 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished* is not Scripture and is not in the Scriptures, for me adds to the exemplary refutation of the Rapture false teachings that Ray has exposed for us which most thoroughly and completely discredits the Rapture figments of imagination of Babylonian leaders.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: January 19, 2008, 02:58:47 PM by Arcturus »


  • Guest
Re: Raised
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2008, 06:03:06 PM »

Rev. 20:5
. . . they also live and reined with Christ a thousand years.  This is the former resurrection.

It seems to me that the thousand years would be necessary for the elect to learn how to judge the world.  As Ray says, the elect are not "born again" until resurrected.  I doubt that they will be ready to judge anything.


  • Guest
Re: Raised
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2008, 02:00:43 AM »

I find this a very interesting subject as well and it does come to my mind quite often.
As I look at this Scripture passage in Matt. it makes me think that the the first resurrection and the resurrection of the dead happens at the same time. 

Mat 25:31  "When the Son of man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
Mat 25:32  Before Him will be gathered all the nations, and He will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,
Mat 25:33  and He will place the sheep at His right hand, but the goats at the left.
Mat 25:34  Then the King will say to those at His right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
Mat 25:41  Then He will say to those at His left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;

Rev 1:7  Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Christ's return in His glory and "every eye will see Him.."  Isn't this referring to all people and this must be after the resurrected of the dead, because it also says, "even they who pierced Him."  This probably has a spiritual meaning of all people, but I think it means those that actually did do this physically at His crucifixion.  So all have already been resurrected and are seeing Him.

Now in Matt. 25 when He separates the sheep from the goats, isn't this the great white throne judgment? 

Rev 20:11  Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it; from
His presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.

Well there are a few things to consider here, as there would have to be an order of events.  Because we know it says the saints come WITH Christ.

1Thes 3:13  so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

So maybe it's that the white throne judgment happen before Christ actually reaches the earth.  And He brings all people before Him for judgment and I don't think that it would necessarily take Him a long period of time to pronounce judgment.  Maybe that's what this Scripture is talking about.

Rev 20:11  Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.

So there is the white throne judgment, where all are brought before Christ and judged. And it seems to be before Christ is on earth and also where Christ gathers His Elect and then He is to return to the earth with His ELect.

Mark 13:26  And then they will see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory.
v. 27  And then He will send out the angels, and gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

I think all these events so far could actually happen in rapid sequence.  He has separated the Elect and as He judges the rest of humanity, now they will be cast into the Lake of fire, which is Christ and the Elect.  'THE LAKE OF FIRE - Part XII - GOD JUDGES THE WORLD IN A POND'

Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
Rev 20:13  The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
Rev 20:14  Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15  And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Now that Christ has gathered His Elect and all have been cast into the Lake of fire, then the world will go through judgment.  At least that's what it seems like is being said in Rev. 14.

Rev 14:1  And I looked, and lo, the Lamb stood on Mount Zion. And with Him were a hundred and forty-four thousands, having His Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:12  Here is the patience of the saints. Here are the ones who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 14:14  And I looked, and behold, a white cloud. And on the cloud sat one like the Son of man, having a golden crown on His head, and a sharp sickle in His hand.
Rev 14:15  And another angel came out of the temple, crying in a great voice to Him sitting on the cloud, Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth was dried.
Rev 14:16  And He sitting on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.
Rev 14:17  And another angel came out of the temple in Heaven, also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18  And another angel came out from the altar, who had authority over fire. And he spoke with a great cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in your sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19  And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the anger of God.

This is just the beginning of the process when Christ shall judge the world.  The Elect are with Him, but as musicman pointed out they are newly born.  So maybe His holy angel are helping out here, as they are mentioned in Rev. 14.

There is so much to think about here.  This is not to be consider as a teaching of Truth, but I'm just looking at all these Scriptures and it's what I can make out of it.  But it's just my opinion  :)

mercy, peace and love

« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 02:21:17 AM by Kat »


  • Guest
Re: Raised
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2008, 04:26:19 AM »

Hi Kat

I have also gone down this road of thought  quote
: So maybe it's that the white throne judgment happen before Christ actually reaches the earth.

For me the White Throne Judgment can not happen without or in the absence of the King on the Throne. The Judgment now on the House of God is not the White Throne Judgement but for me is the prelude to and preparation of the Saints who will become the LOF with the Spirit of Christ when He returns not to condemn but to purify unbelievers through the White Throne Judgement. This is my human logic and human thinking please note!

I do see what you are saying about the separation of the Goats and the Sheep which could also tie in with the gathering of the Elect from the four corners of the earth or the gathering of the grain into the barn which could speak of the White Throne judgement occurring simultaneously with the Judgement on the House of God NOW for those who believe and the White Throne on those who reject belief. For me this is not how it is though because of the fact that even Jesus Christ was born into our linear time and He died in our linear time and He will come again I believe in our linear time when every eye will see Him. Again, this is my human logic please note! I know that the Scripture does not say every eye will see Him AT THE SAME TIME or can some one bring any scriptures to say that AT THE SAME TIME is what the Word of God says? This is not a challenge but a request for insight or information please.

 I for now in my human understanding, can not  see that He is here now on the Throne ruling the Nations and executing His wrath. May be I am not comprehending that He is here and for this reason the world is in such a turmoil.

Luke 21 : 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth; for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. Men's hearts have failed throughout the History of the world and its dramatic wars and atrocities.

I do know that the TRUE Gospel is not being taught throughout the Nations as it says it will be towards the end. Only lies are being preached except for here in BT via Ray Smith.

Matt 24 : 14 And THIS GOSPEL (Not the one preached by Babylon) of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and THEN SHALL THE END COME.

Another question comes up regarding what is the END that Jesus referred to when He said that His Gospel would be preached to all the world. Was it the END where HE returns all to God or the end as in the start of The Day of The Lord? I know that God's thought are not our thoughts and so the END that Jesus was referring to could well NOT BE the way in which a human carnal being sees the end!  :D  For this reason the White Throne could be occurring simultaneously with Judgement on the House of God NOW. I am not 100% sure though but I am beginning to think that the END is  prior to Jesus returning all to God and not the beginning of the Day of The Lord. That kind of END would mean that the White Throne Judgement is in completion and occuring right now with the teachings of Christ and His Judgements when finally they are in the earth having taught all the Nations righteousness which will then signal the end as Jesus might have percieved THE END.

What ever the answers are....they certainly do deserve to be looked for I think! :D

In short, the question is : Is the White Throne Judgement and the Judgement on the House of God now, occurring simultaneously? At this point, I do not think it is.

What cleared this line of thought up for me is Ray's teaching that trial and tribulation is not the same as wrath and indignation that will come upon the world and on Babylon. It might look like and feel like we are or others are experiencing wrath of God but it is not here yet as I see it. Wickedness is here. Great apostasy is here yes. But God's responce is not yet here I do not believe. I could be wrong.

I can not see that anyone is experiencing God's wrath in this time. We are experiencing the consequences of wickedness and evil yes but Gods wrath? I only think Jesus knows what that wrath is and He said we should pray not to be put to the second death.  Peter comforted the people to assure them of this also when they thought that their trials were so bad that it had to be the punishment and wrath of God upon them.

1 Peter 4 : 12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you. 13 But rejoice, inasmuch as you are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when His glory shall be revealed, you may be glad also with exceeding joy.

Peace to you

« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 04:43:05 AM by Arcturus »

Chris R

  • Guest
Re: Raised
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2008, 10:27:01 AM »

Rev. 20:6, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."
 I do know Ray quotes the above Scripture in his writings.

I'm not 100% sure what you mean when you Say Rev 20:5 is not scripture?
I must have missed that, could you post the link>?


Chris R


  • Guest
Re: Raised
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2008, 11:02:11 AM »

Hi Chris

You will see that the part of Rev 20 : 5 that is not in the scriptures is quote : Rev. 20:5
 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished*

The part of Rev 20 : 5 that IS in the scriptures is quote : This is the first resurrection.

I believe this alludes to the order of the resurrection not any number of times that the resurrection will occur.

1 Cor 15 : 23 But each in his own rank and turn: Christ the firstfruits, then those who are Christ's at His coming.

After that, I believe there is a big gap that jumps again to reference to the end which could be exactly what we are all trying to uncover through this discussion because the Scriptures continue with quote:
After that ( no time frame given note) comes the end when He delivers over the kingdom to God the Father after ( long will that take?) rendering inoperative and abolishing every rule and every authority and power....

I am not saying that the second death is not real. It is. It is in the Scriptures and it will occur just as surely as there is a LOF and White Throne Judgement and wrath of God coming upon those who do not believe who will be purified and who will repent and eventually praise Jesus Christ for who He is.

Ray also acknowledged that the spurious insert of the addition to Rev 20 : 5 is not in the oldest manuscripts and he said this in his latest conference. Ray also acknowledged the absence of other scriptures not found in the Word of God.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 11:14:29 AM by Arcturus »


  • Guest
Re: Raised
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2008, 12:16:25 PM »

Hi Arcturus,

I don't think I made myself very clear in what I have said  ::)
I Do 'not' believe that the white throne judgment is now.  I believe it will take place at His appearing, which will be an actual event in the future.  Which is His literal return to the earth the rule and reign.
What I was trying to say by, "maybe the white throne judgment happen before Christ actually reaches the earth."  Was that as soon as He appears or while still in the sky, He then has the white throne judgment, before He actually comes down to the earth.  I was thinking that the white throne judgment as rather quick, maybe in a literal day.  It's the actual judging that is a process that takes time. 
I do understand that judgment is now on the house of God and not the rest of the world.  The Elect are being prepared now through this judging to be in the first resurrection. 
So could the first resurrection be in the white throne judgment, but it would happen 'first' and it would not be to condemnation, but for the Elect to inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world.  That would be the marriage supper of the Lamb. 
Then the rest of mankind would be judged and condemned and this white throne judgment and cast into the Lake of fire.  Then their judging would begin on the earth over a period of time as a purging and cleansing process, to rid them of all unrighteous.  But I was thinking this would happen maybe later on the same literal day as the first resurrection, the white throne judgment would be one event that had things happen in order.  First the resurrection of the Elect to life in the kingdom, then the resurrection of the dead to condemnation.

John 5:28  Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
v. 29  and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

The way I was thinking, is that the white throne judgment is the beginning of the day of the Lord, which will take an age to bring righteousness to all mankind.
Ray said at the last Mobile conference that the 1000 years was a symbol for something.  So it is not literally a 1000 year period of time.  But I was thinking it is the period of time it takes a person to be brought into the kingdom during Christ's rule.  So it would be a different period of time for everybody.  And after all are in the kingdom, then "all in all." 

That's what I was thinking, it's hard to put all these kinds of thoughts into words.

mercy, peace and love



  • Guest
Re: Raised
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2008, 12:49:14 PM »

Im following kat,

I have although one problem. This thousand years seems to me to actually be 1000 years. We understand that a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day and since no one can put a finger on any symbolism it seems as though (to me anyway) this period of time may just as well be exactly what it says. The day OF the LORD, if a day is as a thousand years than that just makes sense.

I hate to kick a dead horse but I cant think of anything else that this 1000 years could mean symbolically or what kind of use there would be to symbolize it? But then again all I have is my human mind and God may have just not revealed it to us YET.

I pray the Lord opens our understanding and gives us clarity according to His will. Without Him we can only speculate. I speculated for 25 years im quite drained by it ;).

God bless,



  • Guest
Re: Raised
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2008, 12:53:50 PM »

Hi Kat

You say :
it's hard to put all these kinds of thoughts into words.

It can also for me be quite an experience to see what I think when I write down what I am thinking ;D

It is most clear in my mind also that as you observe  :  
judgment is now on the house of God and not the rest of the world.  The Elect are being prepared now through this judging to be in the first resurrection.

You also say 
as soon as He appears or while still in the sky, He then has the white throne judgment, before He actually comes down to the earth. 

I agree with this line of thinking which also makes sense to me too because no where do the Scriptures say when the White Throne begins either when Christ is returned to the earth or on His way with His Elect to the Earth.  Christ is not yet on the earth when His Elect meet Him in the air and then with Him they return to the earth. 1 Thes 4 : 17 ..we, the living ones who remain on the earth, shall simultaneously be caught up along with the resurrected dead in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air....

I am intrigued that you say  
I was thinking that the white throne judgment as rather quick, maybe in a literal day.  It's the actual judging that is a process that takes time.

That is a new thought! Is the White Throne Judgment different from the process of correction? Like you recieve the sentence or verdict and then the time out for correction begins? I do not know.

I shall for now take comfort in the fact that God's Elect are not reserved for His Wrath which I believe will be metered out in the LOF process that will be under the auspices of the White Throne Judgment second death no matter how long it will take.   :)

Thank you for your thoughts Kat.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 12:56:54 PM by Arcturus »


  • Guest
Re: Raised
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2008, 01:06:07 PM »

In reference to the separation of the goats from the sheep:  Could this be speaking only of the second resurection?  Could some not in the first resurection be saved right at the second resurection?  It doesn't refer to the sheep here as the saints.  Any thoughts?


  • Guest
Re: Raised
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2008, 01:19:24 PM »

Whew! That is going too deep for me Musicman.

Second resurrection? For me there is only one resurrection in which first those who are in Christ, they are first to rise and then the sequence goes to the others who are raised from death to life afterwards or as in secondly. So why would those who are raised in the first resurrection as in first in the line of the resurrection, then have to go to second place to be saved? I can not figure that one out! ;D

As for sheep and saints, I think it is one and the same. Quote from,3849.0.html

1. Many are called, few are chosen. Do you know what all the parables are about? All of them, every one of them. Do you know what they are about? Many are called, few of chosen. That’s what they are all about. Are you getting it?  Every parable is about many called, few chosen.

2. The Pharisee and the Tax Collector. Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and one a tax collector. And the one prayed inside of himself thus, “I thank you Lord that I’m not like one of those, dare I say it, this tax collector over here, this sinner, this piece of garbage. I fast twice a week, I tithe all that I have…and this and that…. That’s what every parable is about: the Pharisee and the tax collector! This is heavy stuff!

3. The Wise Virgins and the Foolish Virgins. Same thing.
4. The Lost Sheep and the 99
5. The Old Cloth on the New Cloth
6. The Wheat and the Tares
7. The Carnal Mind and the Mind of Christ
8. Judge Now, Judge Later
9. Physical Israel, Spiritual Israel
10. The First Adam, The Second Adam
11. Heart of Stone, Heart of Flesh
12. First the Shadow, Then the Reality
13. The True Gospel, Another Gospel
14. Image of the Earthly, Image of the Heavenly
15. The Tree of Good and Evil, Two: the Pharisee, the tax collector…You get it? The whole Bible!
16. Cain and Abel The Pharisee and the tax collector!
17. Some was sown in the good soil, and some was sown in the stony places
18. Seed of the Woman, Seed of Satan
19. Joseph and Joseph’s brothers
20. Sarah and Hagar
21. The Shadow and The Reality
22. The Law of Sin and Death, and the Law of the Spirit of Christ
23. The Rich Man and Poor Lazarus
24. The Faithful Servant, The Evil Servant
25. The Elder Son, The Prodigal Son
26. The Old Wine Skins, The New Wine Skins
27. The House on the Sand, The House on the Rock.  It’s all the same thing.
28. Eonian Chastisement, Eonian Life
29. First the Physical, Then the Spiritual
30. The Old Covenant, The New Covenant
31. The Carnal Law of Moses, The Spiritual Law of God
32. Physical Blessings, Spiritual Blessings
33. Temporary Blessings, Eternal Blessings
34. First Resurrection, Second Resurrection
35. The Image of Man, The Image of God

Are you getting it? It’s all ONE. God is ONE. His message is ONE.

Thanks for your contribution Musicman!

Peace be to you brother

Arcturus :)


  • Guest
Re: Raised
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2008, 02:54:46 PM »

Hi musicman,

This 1000 years, could this be symbolic of a human lifespan?  Before the floor people could live that long.  So maybe this 1000 years that Christ will rule on earth is allowing for a person that lived 1000 years (preflood) to have a 1000 years to be corrected.  Just a thought.

It seems to me that the first resurrection is a very special reward only for those few that faithfully endure to the end in this age.  Those that are part of the marriage supper (Rev. 19:9), that ride in on white horses with Christ (Rev. 19:14), those whose names are in the Book of life (Rev. 3:5), these few chosen Elect were destined to rule with Christ and it seems that the first resurrection is only for those few.

Eph 1:5  He destined us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will,
Eph 1:6  to the praise of his glorious grace which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
Eph 1:9  For He has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of His will, according to His purpose which He set forth in Christ
Eph 1:10  as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth.
Eph 1:11  In Him, according to the purpose of Him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will,
Eph 1:12  we who first hoped in Christ have been destined and appointed to live for the praise of His glory.

I can see that there will be those who will enter the kingdom pretty quick after Christ returns.  I would think John the Baptist would enter really quickly.  But he is not part of the first resurrection or the kingdom at Christ return, that reward is only for the few.

Mat 11:11  Verily I say to you, there hath not risen, among those born of women, a greater than John the Baptist, but he who is least in the reign of the heavens is greater than he.

All those resurrected of the dead will be made subject to Christ and brought to be one with God as they are taught righteousness.

1Co 15:25  For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
1Co 15:26  The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27  For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
1Co 15:28  Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Isa 26:9  With my soul I have desired You in the night, Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early; For when Your judgments are in the earth, The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Just some more thoughts  :)

mercy, peace and love



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Re: Raised
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2008, 08:36:38 PM »

I love this conversation.

The timing of each individual's resurrection day  varies, and the length of time and severity of judgment varies.

Think of the parable of Lazarus and the rich man-one had already crossed the gulf into immortality, the other not. Abraham was already there.

Ray's letter to Hagee spells out the eons and their order.  Christ rules for the last two, the millenium and the new heaven/earth.  Satan comes after the end of the thousand years (Rev 20:7) then judgment on the earth; in the last eon.

Also the festivals of the wavesheaf, the firstfruits and the great harvest are indicators that resurrection occurs over time.

Here is a thought, Matt.24:22, and unless those days be shortened no flesh would be saved but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened-

Why would it be beneficial to the elect for flesh to be saved?  Maybe the millenial reign will be over flesh, kingly rule.  Maybe the new heaven/earth will be the great white throne, judging.

I love this conversation.

charles o


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Re: Raised
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2008, 10:06:26 AM »

Then , why does David believe he will be resurrected in a spiritual body.

Psalm 17:15 I -- in righteousness, I see Thy face; I am satisfied, in awaking, [with] Thy form!
(Young's Literal Translation)


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Re: Raised
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2008, 10:53:23 AM »

Hi Orlando,

As I was looking at this verse, I can see what you were thinking it says.  That David is speaking of awaking in the resurrection "with Your image" or that David would be in the spiritual form of God?

I believe what David is saying is that when he awakes at the resurrection he will behold God.  Not be like Him, but see Him.
Look at some other translations that will help you see how this is being spoken by David.

Psa 17:15  As for me, I shall behold thy face in righteousness; when I awake, I shall be satisfied with beholding thy form. (RSV)

Psa 17:15  And I--in righteousness I will see your face; when I awake, I will be satisfied with seeing your likeness. (NIV)

Psa 17:15 I, in righteousness, shall behold thy face, Shall be satisfied when awakened by a vision of thee. (Rotherham)

Psa 17:15  But I will see you, because I have done no wrong; and when I awake, your presence will fill me with joy. (GNB)

mercy, peace and love



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Re: Raised
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2008, 03:26:46 PM »

"I'd rather have Grace than Justice anyday."

A very good friend said this to me just this morning and I've been meditating on it all day.  I too have an opinion on this subject but thats all it is and possibily all it will ever be.  So, I remain quite and content in the fact that no matter what the morrow brings(first or second resurection; sheep or goat), that our Father loves us all.  It is not for me to judge or to even speculate on the timing or circumstances involved.  That seems to me to be an unrevealed chapter of the plan.  Just as grace is only given by the Lord, so justice is also disperced in His time and in His way...I am kinda partial to grace though ;D

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