Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[jackson]

I was reading in this commentary on the Bible today...just looking through some scripture.  I was curious what it would say about 1 Tim. 2;3-4; "This is good and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth." (I like to see how theologians reconcile people to hell and damnation)

Of course the commentary talked its way around this verse and eventually offered up Matt. 23:37 as a defence of mans free will in denying God.

Matt. 23:37- Jesus speaking- "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen herds her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."

Now I know that free will is a myth, so I'm not questioning that.  This verse in Matthew does puzzel me though.  Apparently I've had too much carnal, worldly stuff going on today to be able to think spiritually .  So if anyone has some insight I'd be much abliged.

Jackson

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Jackson,

Here are some verses I believe shed light on Matt 23:37;

Matt. 23:37- Jesus speaking- "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen herds her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."

They were not willing, yet. And why was that?

Joh 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

It was not yet their time, but there is this promise;

1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
 
1Co 15:23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (See Romans Chapter 8)
 
1Co 15:24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
 
1Co 15:25  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

As well as this promise;

Joh 12:32  And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Here is a portion from LOF Part 4 that deals with this every man in his own time theme;

http://bible-truths.com/lake4.html

THE FIRSTFRUITS (Feast of Weeks): "All the best of the oil , and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the FIRSTFRUITS of them which they shall offer unto the Lord, them have I given thee ... And whatsoever is FIRST RIPE in the land which they shall bring unto the Lord, shall be thine..." (Num. 18:12 & 13). "And now, behold, I have brought the firstfruits of the land, which thou, O Lord, has given me. And thou shalt set it before the LORD thy God, and worship before the Lord thy God" (Deut. 26:10).
 
COMMENT: The type in the New Testament of this Old Testament symbol is the Believer. Notice what James tells us, "Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of FIRSTFRUITS of His creatures" (James 1:18). Now a very important point: How far down the road in prophecy can we go until we reach the end of the firstfruits? In Rev. 7:4-8 we read of the sealing of the 144,000. These are a different group from the great innumerable multitude, which no man could number, from every nation and tongue spoken of beginning in verse 9.
 
In Chapter 14:1 & 4 we are told specifically who these 144,000 are: "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand [notice that the innumerable multitudes from all nations is not mentioned here] ... These are they which were not defiled with women, for they are virgins [as in the Bride of Christ]. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, BEING THE FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb" (Rev. 14:1 & 4). So every believer from the Apostles to the 144,000 just prior to the return of Jesus Christ to establish His reign on the earth, is called and likened to FIRSTFRUITS! So what does this have to do with the lake of fire? EVERYTHING! Everyone saved before the Day of Judging is likened to firstfruits, so there will be no more firstfruits after the white throne judgment.
 
Paul tells us in Rom. 8:23, "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the FIRSTFRUITS of the Spirit..." Nowhere do we read of the "LASTFRUITS," but whenever something is FIRST we also know there is something to follow. Nor are there any references to any "ONLYFRUITS." The firstfruits are clearly not the ONLY fruits! Follow this very closely now, for you are in for a big shock when you understand the type in the fall festival of Tabernacles—the great fall harvest.

THE END-OF-THE-YEAR FEAST OF INGATHERING (Feast of Tabernacles): "And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou has sown in the field and the FEAST OF INGATHERING, which is in the END OF THE YEAR, when you have gathered in thy labours out of the field" (Ex. 23:16).
 
"Thou shall observe the FEAST OF TABERNACLES seven [number of perfection] days, after that you have gathered in your corn and your wine: And you shall REJOICE IN YOUR FEAST, you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, the stranger, and the widow, that are within your gates [that’s just about EVERYONE, wouldn’t you say?]. Seven days [here’s that perfect number again] shall you keep A SOLEMN FEAST [a very important feast to God] unto the LORD your God in the place which the Lord shall choose: because the Lord thy God shall bless you in all your increase, and in all the works of your hands, therefore you shalt surely REJOICE" (Deut. 16:13-15). Here truly was a festival in which EVERYONE, every single person in all Israel, and also did you notice, "the STRANGER" who was NOT an Israelite could really REJOICE! THIS FESTIVAL WAS THE HAPPIEST TIME OF THE YEAR! Do we think it will have no fulfillment in God’s grand plan of salvation?
 
"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, the fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the FEAST OF TABERNACLES for seven days unto the LORD. On the first day shall be an holy convocation: you shall do no servile work therein. Seven days you shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the EIGHTH DAY shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by FIRE unto the LORD: it is a SOLEMN assembly; and you shall do no servile work therein" (Lev. 23:34-36). Why is the profound and marvelous truth of this festival not taught in its proper chronological order by the prophets of Christendom? How is it even possible to avoid seeing the powerful and glorious consummation of God’s salvation in this Fall Harvest Festival? Why is the truth of this GREAT FEAST being hidden from the eyes of the world? What is it that they are trying to hide from us? God’s Word will show us.

JESUS TAUGHT THE PURPOSE OF THE FALL HARVEST

The eighth day of this Feast of Tabernacles was called "The Last Great Day of the Feast." Jesus Christ Himself came to the Feast of Tabernacles in Jerusalem and spoke on the Last Great Day:

"In the last day, that GREAT DAY OF THE FEAST, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If ANY MAN thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of LIVING WATER" (John 7:37-38).

At what point in future prophecy, will Jesus Christ CUT OFF the invitation to all and any who are athirst to drink of His LIVING WATERS? Our Lord NEVER cuts off the invitation to drink of the living waters. These waters (a symbol for God’s SPIRIT) will be available until every creature in heaven and earth is saved:

"And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the FOUNTAIN OF THE WATER OF LIFE FREELY" (Rev. 21:6).

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the WATER OF LIFE FREELY" (Rev. 22:17).

And this declaration is made just five verses before the END OF THE BIBLE!

But don’t be deceived, Jesus Christ IS the "tree of life" in the Garden, and NO ONE can partake of that tree of life except he first pass the through the "FLAMING SWORD" that points in all directions and guards the tree of life. Remember, "Our God is a CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).

So Tabernacles celebrated the great Fall harvest, the largest harvest of the whole year. It was this great Fall harvest that would sustain Israel through the winter months. There were far more products to be harvested in the END of the year than in the Spring of the year. Therefore this same type must carry over into the New Testament.

So here is where we are. There were THREE great festivals in the yearly calendar of Israel:

"THREE TIMES in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which He shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread [which included Passover], and in the feast of weeks [firstfruits], and in the feast of tabernacles [the time of the great fall harvest]: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty" (Deut. 16:16).

First comes the wave sheaf, the very first of the firstfruits, on Passover, during the feast of unleavened bread. This represents CHRIST, the very first (wave sheaf) OF the firstfruit, our Passover sacrificed for us.

Second was the Feast of Weeks when the firstfruit of the land was harvested. This represents US, the FIRSTFRUIT to enter God’s Kingdom. James says WE are the firstfruit of God (James 1:18).

Third came the great Fall harvest, the Feast of Tabernacles, a much much larger gathering, where ALL THE FALL HARVEST was gathered in! What does this Feast picture? This was the time of true REJOICING FOR EVERYONE. Absolutely EVERYONE. No one was left out of this great and final festival of the year:

"And thou shalt rejoice IN THY FEAST [of Tabernacles, the fall harvest], YOU, and your SON, and your DAUGHTER, and your MANSERVANT, and your MAIDSERVANT, and the LEVITE, the STRANGER [GENTILES], and the FATHERLESS, and the WIDOW, that are within your gates" (Deut. 16:14).

NO ONE was EXCLUDED! EVERYONE was INCLUDED!

And so we see in the New Testament that these three festivals of ancient Israel are really TYPES in God’s master plan of salvation. Christ the FIRST of the firstfruit. Then believers, the FIRSTFRUITS. And then the great FALL HARVEST.

But wait a minute. We know that Christ was the First of the firstfruit to be resurrected to life. We also know that all the believing saints who are to reign with Christ at His coming are the rest of the firstfruits. So where then does the great fall harvest of souls come into God’s family? When have you ever been taught about the great fall harvest, which excludes no one but includes everyone? There is a reason why you haven’t heard the truth of these Scriptures in Christendom.

According to Christendom THERE IS NO GREAT FALL HARVEST OF SOULS at the end of the ages!

That’s right, they say there will be NO Fall Harvest in God’s Kingdom. Just how do they account for such a thing? Is God such an inept and unskilled Farmer that He has a total crop failure when Fall harvest time comes, or will He just BURN THE ENTIRE HARVEST in the eternal fires of some fabled hell?

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

This is kind of a Post Script (P.S.) as I had a thought that just came to me in regard to your question and underlines John 6:44;

Joh 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

And this;

Joh 6:65  And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

I suppose this fact, the fact that Jesus was not able to save or choose Jerusalem or many of those who He came into contact with because His (our) Father had not decreed it, caused our Lord some pain and anguish as the Father is the One who draws men to Christ our Saviour not Christ Himself.

Remember the rich young man?

Mar 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Mar 10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

Mar 10:20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

Mar 10:21Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Mar 10:22And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

You know it must have been difficult for our Lord to see all the people that would not be chosen by the Father and that would have to wait for judgment to finally know Him and be converted.

Any thoughts or comments would be welcome.

Peace,

Joe

[rjsurfs]

Hi Jackson,

Yes, theologians do conform their commentaries to fit their own doctrines... no doubt, and as you see there are many verses that can make them a little uncomfortable.

I stopped using them all together for a couple of years and focused primarily on Ray's papers and starting learning more about using dictionaries and concordances such as Strong's and Wigram's.  The study of words and their meanings has really helped me and I have found it to be extremely interesting.

Now I do refer to different commentaries occasionally... like you have noticed, you have to be careful and test everything with scripture.  I will often use Google as well to search on an scripture or idea... either way I occasionally find a shiny nugget of truth using them. 

Bobby

[jackson]

Hey Joe,

Thanks so much for the info.  Those were some great verses you quoted from.  I think you are right, it must have been and still is very stressful for Jesus to witness our faithlessness.  As a father I often have these fealings when my daughters ignore my warnings and dive head first into situations that I know are going to cause them pain.  But more often than not that is the only way they really learn.  So it is the same then as it is now that our Holy Father gives us all the warning we should need but we continually stick our hands on the proverbial "hot stove".

Believe it or not nothing in this thread is new to me.  Sometimes though my brain shuts down right in the middle of a............. What was I sayin'?  Oh yea; my remember is broke (thats what my kids tell everyone).  My Father does a good job though of reminding me (through this place mostly) of the direction I'm suppose to be goin'.

Hey Bobby,  thats some really good advice.  It is really difficult diggin' out those "shiny nuggets of truth" from unyielding unsound doctrines.  Maybe I should concentrat more on the study of the words and their meanings rather than peoples opinions of them.

Jackson

[Grateful]

Hi Jackson!

Yes, it's a GREAT idea.....to concentrate on the words themselves and their meanings.  Have you got a good Webster's Collegiate Edition of the American Language dictionary??    Highly recommended!!!!!!!!!!!    


A wordsmith doing the math,

Linda