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Author Topic: the garden scene  (Read 3255 times)

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dave

  • Guest
the garden scene
« on: January 31, 2008, 12:41:03 PM »

I have just finished the Mobile 2006 My Fathers Will transcript;
I like it and believe that much can be received much from the teach-
ing. What was said about Gen 1:26 may have cleared up the long asked question of where did Cain's wife come from. You wrote that "Let us make man(humanity)..well there it is she was in that humanity and then God went to work..preparing the man(Adam?)
I am not trying to be out of line, thats what I received from it. the Lord has revealed sometime ago the duality in God. El Shaddai is the
"breasted one" not breath. And the "rib" the Lord has been dealing with me on that as well and the "chamber" out of all the examples is probably the best, the rib-chamber being the womb; that being removed could possibly cause the "limp." The teaching is sound, no place have I read or heard any thing close to what you have said and yours at least is comprehendable. But I did have my problems; I do agree that the 24 hour days are out and the true amount is up for debate. This thing about Adam seeing  woman for the first time; I dont feel that Adam or the Lord God had the exhausting thoughts of what to do about a helpmeet. I believe the words I suggest or possibly could have been used to tell the rest of the story. First, Adam did not know what you shall "be dying" meant...nobody had died yet. And the Lord God did only command the man not to eat, no where are we told or shown where or if he told the woman..she was on her own. And the dramatic thing with Adam..I will follow this woman anywhere even to dying? They or he did not know what that was dying. But the real thing that jumped out at me was the "non scriptural phrase"...THE BRIDE OF CHRIST....now after reading and listening to you,and I will continue you are teaching good stuff that helps, but for Ray to say that well..Ive been looking for years to find that scripture. I spent about my 5 first years in bible study trying to find.."God helps those who help themselves." but you have givin me much to study, ponder, and reevaluate. I know full well there will be much criticism to what I have said, but I am learning still and i might add I hope you are as well. Ive been walking this walk long enough to know that just because the truth of the scriptures may be revealed to a person and those revelations such as "hell" and "everlasting", "tithing", "trinity", and the insight to understanding the parables, is not just given so that men will follow "YOU" as the "THE" and the last word, I believe it is "in part" that the body learns and grows in Christ who is the head. My prayer is the Lord continue to reveal His truths to those few He is calling out. Bless you Bros. and Sisters.
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: the garden scene
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2008, 02:53:44 PM »


Hi Micah,

If you are going to critique Ray teaching, you should send an email to him about that.
This one thing that you said.

Quote
But the real thing that jumped out at me was the "non scriptural phrase"...THE BRIDE OF CHRIST....now after reading and listening to you,and I will continue you are teaching good stuff that helps, but for Ray to say that well..Ive been looking for years to find that scripture.

Here is the section of the transcript you are referring to.
This is the relationship we're going to have with God.  Christ refers to the church as the Bride of Christ
The bride is going to be all decorated, by that we mean, made spotless and sure and clean, character wise.  A fitting Bride for the creator of the universe.


I do not see where Ray was quoting Scripture with that statement.  But there is certainly many places in Rev. that referrs to the bride.  This one Scripture in particular states "the bride, the Lamb's wife."  I think that has the exact same meaning, but maybe worded differently.

Rev 21:9  And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Here is a Scripture where John the Baptist is speaking of Christ and referrs to the bride.

John 3:29  He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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ciy

  • Guest
Re: the garden scene
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2008, 06:40:03 PM »

Kat

That is some good info plus the several parables in the gospels about wedding feasts, virgins, and such.

I also wanted to point out that a national poll I ran across a few years ago showed that over 80% of churchgoers believed that "God helps those who help themselves" was a verse in the bible.  Again showing how uninterested they are in the Word of God when one of the over riding messages in the bible is that "I can do nothing of myself, but my Father works through me" or "I can do all things through Christ".

Just thought I would throw that in.
CIY
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lilitalienboi16

  • Guest
Re: the garden scene
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2008, 07:02:50 PM »

Keep studying Micah. Everything ray said is very very solid and i havn't seen anyone that refute anything he has said.

Good luck with that if you're trying to do that.

The Bride of Christ is not an unscriptural statement and i don't think ray was saying that He was quoteing scripture.

Kat pointed to some scriptures which give us an idea as to who the bride of Christ really is.

As for adam dieng for eve. My gosh where do i begin to explain this.

Okay pay close attention.

I wrote this article a while ago to explain it and i posted on here before but ill post it again. I hope it helps you understand how we can see adam as a figure and shadow of Christ the spiritual reality.

Begin Article:

1 Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Now this isn't my point here, but i wanted to ask you all, does God really mean 'every man' when He says it? Was Christ the head of Hitler? Is He the head of Bush, or me? How many of you believe that God means, everyman when He says it?

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

With that in mind let us continue;

Gen 2:18 "And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
Gen 2:20 "And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him."
Gen 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
Gen 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

What we are being told here is that as humanity [eve] came out of Christ [adam], so did Christ come out from the Father;

John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

Now many of you are probably wondering where i got 'humanity' out of adam and eve, well let me show you;

Gen 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

What are we told about the 'eve,' or 'all living things?'

Genesis 3:16 Thy desire shall be to [properly translated AGAINST] thy husband and he shall rule over thee"

Now many see this as teaching that Man is to rule over women, but how did the apostle paul see this?

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Ephesians 5:31-32 "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Now notice what paul says about the church's relationship to Christ's;

Ephesians 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

What did adam say about his wife?

Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Adam is the figure, a shadow, a type of Christ, he is the visible, making the invisible clearly seen. Eve is a represents humanity, and all of us, likewise 'the church.' This shows how the church, and all humanity will be ruled over by 'Christ.'

Ephesians 5:23 "For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body."

We are also told that this 'women' the 'mother of all living' [eve] is naturaly against her 'husband' or 'man'[adam]. What does this reveal to us? It shows us that all of humanity [eve] is naturaly AGAINST God [ adam the figure of Christ to come], by the very sinful nature he was created in.

Romans 8:7 "Because the carnal mind is enmity [Deep seated hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So understanding that Adam is the figure of Christ, and Eve represents all humanity, we can understand Eve is 'bone of my bone, and flesh of my flesh' for adam, so is all humanity for Christ, we all came out of Christ, and we all are 'in Christ.'

Ephesians 1:10 "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Colossians 1:17 "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist"

Colossians 1:20 "And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Romans 11:36 "For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Talking to pagan Athenians, Paul make this amazing statement:

Act 17:28 For in him[God, through Christ] we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring

Now we are coming to the point and reason i am writting to you and i hope you recieve it all, keeping in mind what has been said;

1 Timothy 2:14 "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

What is really being said here? Isn't the fact that adam wasn't decieved, but eve was, make adams sin far worse then eve's because he willingly partook of that fruit when he was not decieved?

The point being made here is NOT that adam's sin was far worse, the point is that Adam [through his LUST for eve] willingly partook of the FRUIT OF DEATH, so that he would NOT be SEPERATED from Eve.

Likewise, Christ [OUT OF PERFECT LOVE] died for HUMANITY, so Humanity would NOT be seperated from Him.

Adam did this out of LUST for eve, while Christ did it out of PERFECT LOVE for humanity.

Hebrews 2:9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

What is the ultimate point of understanding that Adam willingly died with eve so not to be seperated from her as a shadow and type of Christ and humanity?

It is to see that;

1 Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive"

End article.

Now i don't want to speak on behalf of ray but this is how i understand it and perhaps this can help you as well. Maybe ray has a different way of explaining it, but this always made sence to me.

I hope it helps.

God bless,

Alex
« Last Edit: January 31, 2008, 07:05:36 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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Sorin

  • Guest
Re: the garden scene
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2008, 01:43:43 AM »

That's exactly right Alex! The fact that Adam was not deceived, but rather Eve was, shows that Adam knowingly partook of the fruit because he feared losing Eve. And figured, he'd rather die with her, than live without her. Or if one wants to argue that Adam didn't know
what dying was-fine, he at least thought God would take her away from him. He didn't want to be separated from her.
He figured since she ate, now God's going to punish her, so whatever God does to her, if I eat, then he will have to do the same to me.
Either way you look at it. Adam partook out of lust, out of love, out of fear of being alone again-he knew something bad was going to happen. So by partaking of the fruit, he knew at least this way he'll be with her...whatever this 'dying' business is.

That's the way I see it.

BTW: How is "The Bride of Christ" an UnScriptural statement?

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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: the garden scene
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2008, 02:10:50 AM »

So it is all Eve's fault right :D Just kidding! :D

I find it interesting that Jesus addressed His Father quote John 17 : 6  I have told these men about you. They were in the world but then YOU GAVE them to me. (Like Eve was given to Adam? I think so. ) Actually they were always Yours, and YOU gave them to me, AND THEY HAVE KEPT YOUR WORD...

This just strikes me as saying, that FEW are given to Christ by God.  Few keep His Word. I think this applies to women as well....

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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lilitalienboi16

  • Guest
Re: the garden scene
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2008, 04:06:20 AM »

Agreed sorin.

Arcturus, you are to much man! :P

Great scripture though, its definatly something to think about and does bring a parellel to eve being given to adam as in the Father giving Christ those that are His. Yet we know that the Father hath given ALL THINGS into the Son's hand.

Hmm interesting stuff!

God bless,

Alex
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ericsteven

  • Guest
Re: the garden scene
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2008, 04:33:56 AM »

I have been reading some of Gerald Schroeder’s books concerning his theory on the nature of the creation in Genesis 1.  I believe Ray mentioned his name in one of his talks in regards to some of the books that he had been reading.  Schroeder has some very radical, yet sensible, ideas about how the creation ‘days’ can be seen, despite the fact that he does believe in the false doctrine of ‘free will.’  His basic contention is that, based on Einstein’s theory of relativity and the concept of time dilation, the six days of creation are both literal 24 hour days and upwards of billions of years – at the same time.  From the earth’s perspective it would be billions of years, but from the point when God initiated what Ray calls the ‘God Awesome Blast,’ which started the universe expanding outward in all directions, it would only seem like six days.  It’s all relative.  (His theory is different from the day-age theory going around, but I cannot even begin to explain the science behind it yet.)

All that to address one thing in your email about Adam not knowing what death was before he ate of the tree.  That particular theory is used by some Young Earth Creationists (the earth is only 6000 years old) to show that there was no animal death at all before the ‘fall’ of Adam, otherwise the creation would not have been “very good” and perfect and Jesus’s sacrifice would have been for nought.  They also believe, based on Genesis 1:29-30, that all animals on the earth ate plants up until after the flood when God gave permission to eat meat.  Not to say that they are wrong about the death aspect (I don't know), but Ray has taught us that the creation was not perfect in the sense of Christ being perfect (without sin), but it was perfect and ‘very good’ – even the evil 'serpent' - for the purposes that God had set forth from the beginning. 

I thank Ray for dropping all of his little hints about what he’s been studying.  It’s really gotten me interested in what Genesis 1 really means rather than what it says.  One thing that intrigued me was that it could possibly be assumed that Adam named the animals that came to him on the sixth day according to the Hebrew language.  I guess it could be possible that he used another language at that time, but the scriptures are silent in that regard.  That said, the Hebrew word for lion is ariy (Strong’s H738).  It is derived from a Hebrew root word meaning ‘in a sense of violence.’  Would Adam give a lion that name because of the way the lion did violence towards a tree?  The Hebrew for the night hawk mentioned in Leviticus 11 in the KJV is tachmac, which is derived from a root word which means ‘to wrong, do violence to, treat violently, do wrongly.”  Are we to think that Adam gave that name because of the way the bird violently treated the berries on the bush?  If Schroeder is on the right path as to his explanation, even if he’s not totally right, the sixth ‘day’ that Adam experienced would have given him enough time to see the natural processes of the natural world taking place, including the death of animals at the hands (paws, talons?) of other animals.  He would at least have an inkling of what death was like – even natural death as opposed to just violent death - from what he observed in the animal kingdom.

I don’t know what the truth is concerning this matter, and I fervently look forward to what Ray has to impart, but I believe there is perhaps evidence in the scripture to point to the assumption that Adam may have known exactly what death was, at least what death looked like in the animals around him.  The scriptures don’t say that he questioned what death was when God told him he would die, so perhaps he knew up to a certain point exactly what he was getting himself into.

Anyway, no major theological breakthrough here, just food for thought.  Perhaps Ray will clear much of this up for us in September.

Eric
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Sorin

  • Guest
Re: the garden scene
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2008, 10:18:15 PM »

Agreed sorin.

*thumbsup*

Quote from: lilitalienboi16
Arcturus, you are to much man! :P

I'm pretty sure Arcturus is female. ROFL! :P

Quote from: lilitalienboi16
Great scripture though, its definatly something to think about and does bring a parellel to eve being given to adam as in the Father giving Christ those that are His. Yet we know that the Father hath given ALL THINGS into the Son's hand.

Hmm interesting stuff!

Yes, Eve was definitely given to Adam by God, much like all creation has been given to Christ, by God. For we know that all good gifts are from above.

Take care,
Sorin
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Sorin

  • Guest
Re: the garden scene
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2008, 10:19:38 PM »

So it is all Eve's fault right :D Just kidding! :D

Well, ye women have a way of making men do crazy things.  :P
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: the garden scene
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2008, 02:38:39 AM »

Woman is God's gift to man and some women certainly do abuse, misunderstand and misrepresent that fact. With any power there is accountability!

Peace be to you

Arcturus :)
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lilitalienboi16

  • Guest
Re: the garden scene
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2008, 02:46:04 PM »

Yes women all to often torment me night after night, because they are so beautiful and i have a darn beast in me that wants to go nuts and wild and this beast is IMPOSSIBLE to controle i tell you! What is a mere mortal man to do? Have mercy God! ><


haha, well if arcturus is a lady, than my bad, haha :X
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Sorin

  • Guest
Re: the garden scene
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2008, 04:57:03 PM »

Woman is God's gift to man

Amen to that!  :P


Quote from: Arcturus
and some women certainly do abuse, misunderstand and misrepresent that fact. With any power there is accountability!

Peace be to you

Arcturus :)

That is true what you say. It's why the bible talks about modest women, as opposed to harlots...as being precious in God's eyes.

Take care,
Sorin
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: the garden scene
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2008, 03:16:05 AM »

Hey Alex

I am much too old and ugly for any of you in this Forum! You know, a real Beast slayer!

Sorin, just as woman is Gods gift to man, a Godly man and a Godly woman are Gods gifts to them both. Just think how poorly a woman does with out a head. Chicken without a head sort of thing Ha Ha Ha! ;)

Peace to you little brothers

Arc :)
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lilitalienboi16

  • Guest
Re: the garden scene
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2008, 03:19:05 AM »

Hey Alex

I am much too old and ugly for any of you in this Forum! You know, a real Beast slayer!

Sorin, just as woman is Gods gift to man, a Godly man and a Godly woman are Gods gifts to them both. Just think how poorly a woman does with out a head. Chicken without a head sort of thing Ha Ha Ha! ;)

Peace to you little brothers

Arc :)

awww comon arC! don't be so harsh on yourself, im not a hot stud either, besides i'm sure you are very beautiful, all it takes is seeing that beauty for what it is! Beauty is in the eye of the beholder right?

God gifts us all with beauty in different ways and we know that spiritual beauty is the greatest gift of all! Though the world would consider physical beauty as the most priceless thing, we all know it is the spiritual that is eternal and truly beautiful!

So are you a women or a guy.. im still really confused >< sorry!!!!!!!

God bless,

Alex

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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: the garden scene
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2008, 03:26:30 AM »

LOL :) I am a real woman Alex and I am blessed to have a Godly man of a husband who would agree with you in saying that he too thinks I am quite lovely. I try to be for him and sometimes succeed which is worth the effort!

Bless you

Arc.
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lilitalienboi16

  • Guest
Re: the garden scene
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2008, 03:29:40 AM »

LOL :) I am a real woman Alex and I am blessed to have a Godly man of a husband who would agree with you in saying that he too thinks I am quite lovely. I try to be for him and sometimes succeed which is worth the effort!

Bless you

Arc.

haha, well i think this is the cutest thing i've ever read from older couple!

That's priceless, i'm so happy you succeed! I'm sure your husband is a lucky man! =]

God bless,

Alex
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Sorin

  • Guest
Re: the garden scene
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2008, 04:30:56 PM »

Hey Alex

I am much too old and ugly for any of you in this Forum! You know, a real Beast slayer!

Sorin, just as woman is Gods gift to man, a Godly man and a Godly woman are Gods gifts to them both. Just think how poorly a woman does with out a head. Chicken without a head sort of thing Ha Ha Ha! ;)

Peace to you little brothers

Arc :)

I agree, Arcturus. However, this reminds me of the time I said that the man is the head to someone and she responded back with, yeah, but the female is the neck, and the neck turns the head, pointing it which way to go. So I responded with, yeah, but without the brain, which is in the head, the neck can't do anything.   :P

She gave it a jolly good try, but there's no arguing with the natural God given order of things.  ;)

Take care,
Sorin

P.S. Arc, perhaps you're being too hard on yourself. You were obviously pretty enough to attract a mate. I don't know many "Beast Slayers" that can do that.  ;)
« Last Edit: February 03, 2008, 04:34:05 PM by Sorin »
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: the garden scene
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2008, 05:49:15 PM »

No Sorin

My husband chose me for my brains! :D... Just kidding!

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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Sorin

  • Guest
Re: the garden scene
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2008, 11:17:53 PM »

No Sorin

My husband chose me for my brains! :D... Just kidding!

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

 :D ;)
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