> General Discussions
Romans 1:20
CEO:
Dear phazel,
Who is without excuse?
V 18 '...those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.'
v 19 '... for God has shown it to them.'
Go to v 20 'For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes are clearly seen...' Who has seen the invisible? Only those to whom God has revealed; they are the ones given the truth.
This verse is used erroneously to say all humanity is without excuse if we do not worship and recognize God; in reality it is saying those who have been shown the truth and rejected it will experience the wrath of God. I believe the wrath of God is two fold, firstly man being left to his own devices, secondly a more severe judgment in the second resurrection.
This is a great day to study scripture
Charles O
indianabob:
Deborah and Kat,
All the responses are helpful to illustrate that "we" who have knowledge, are without excuse to realize that there must be a creator, but many use this to deny a first opportunity to accept God after this present life.
The point they overlook is the death of children and some others who have not a fully developed mind and who therefore have not had any opportunity to see or recognize the creation and be able to attribute it to a creator. These in my view do have an excuse and they must not be ignored by our God in His dealings with humanity. It is this misunderstanding that leads some to accept Calvin's view of predestination that leads to believing that God will intentionally destroy or waste billions of individuals.
Please comment
Bob
Deborah-Leigh:
Hello Bob
For me God is in command of when we live, how long we live and that we live. God is the potter and we the clay. Some get to work out their salvation looking to see what God is causing them to think feel and experience and others think they have to do something to get past the judgment on how they think, feel and act.
Regarding the false teachings of Calvin, I believe that he neither knew God nor did he comprehend the Power of God.
This teaching comes to mind quote : GOD DID NOT PUT ‘ETERNITY’ IN THE HEART OF MANKIND
“He [God] has made everything fitting [not ‘beautiful’] in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does.” (Ecc. 3:11).
So God has made everything that there is (even though much of it is evil, ugly, and NOT ‘beautiful,’) fitting, proper, appropriate, and suited for its own season, “but” or “however”—here comes a counter proposal, if you will. So God makes EVERYTHING proper and appropriate for His plan, however…. BUT, “…He has put OBSCURITY in their hearts…” so that, or in order that, they CANNOT know or understand what it is that He is doing to them in this human existence we call “life.” What a spiritual revelation!
We have hundreds of Scriptures that verify the fact that God does do according to His plan and intention, always, and everywhere, but there are few verses as this verse which tells us specifically how He had HID [concealed, obscured] this marvelous operation from the eyes of carnal humanity as this verse does.
But Jesus Christ can set us free from the carnal mind, and give us spiritual discernment, and increase our knowledge, and make us wise so that we can understand. Here then is the revelation of a major mystery:
God uses mankind with his “obscured heart” to do all of His intentions without mankind every consciously knowing that God is working His purpose through them—“so that no man can find out the work that God makes from the beginning to the end.”
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html
PRAYING BY GOD’S RULES
Let’s now understand this most profound truth. It isn’t just that, "…we know not what we should pray for as we ought…" No, it is much more profound then just that, it is that "….for we know not what we should pray for, to accord with what MUST BE, we are not aware…" Why does the spirit aid our infirmity? What is our infirmity? Our infirmity is that we don’t know what to pray for that will absolutely always be in accord with what must be God’s will, and God’s will is "what must be." And since none of us has perfect foreknowledge of what God’s will must be, God’s spirit aids those who are obedient to Him, in requesting and praying about, the right things, so our prayers aren’t in vain.
It is the will and plan and preordained purpose of God Almighty, that’s what "MUST BE." "THY WILL BE done" (Matt. 6:10). Yes, God’s will MUST be done—always! One day we will all come to believe and appreciate the fact that God is Sovereign. God is always right. God always does what is best and perfect. And so it is vain to pray for something that is NOT "in accord with what MUST BE".
And only then does verse 28 make sense. Things don’t "just happen" to people who love and obey God (as most translations suggest in this verse). No, we should now be willing to accept the truth, "…that GOD [The King James leaves out the ‘God’ in this verse as if things just work themselves out without God] is working all together for the good…" And how is it that God works?
"In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him Who works ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:11).
And so, if we always pray according to God’s Will, with a clean conscience, obeying the commandments of God, and are aided by the Holy Spirit of God to pray only "in accord with what MUST BE," we will begin seeing answered prayer where we may have been frustrated in the past.
http://bible-truths.com/praying.htm
The depths of God! What mortal can fathom them? Who can know HIM but to whom HE would reveal HIMSELF.
Calvin did not have any clue regarding the above teachings and revelations taught by Ray, and I believe Calvin believed that he had got God all figured out!
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
hillsbororiver:
Great thread as well as responses!
I cannot help but look at much of these questions without looking to the next age where admittedly I do not have much of a clue how God the Father through Christ and His elect will exactly sort things out but we do have this promise of the things to come;
Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
The world will learn righteousness, the entire world, past, present and future. Remember only a very few of the few will be saved at the resurrection of the dead, the rest of humanity will learn righteousness. Will there be some who are raised to judgment seek this correcting judgment as others attempt to flee from it? Will some immediately be drawn to the Light as others seek to escape it in the darkness?
I am sure the lesson plan (severity) will be different for John the Baptist versus Adolf Hitler, or the OT prophets verses Attila the Hun or Joseph Stalin. But the fact is other than the elect (the very few) ALL the inhabitants of the world will learn what they have yet to see, hear and understand in their first journey on this earth.
The aborted child or one who dies early in life or had been afflicted with a condition that prevented them from having full functional brain activity will not be under the wrath of God as those who are raised with stony, evil hearts who attempt (at first) to escape judgment.
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Now this is speculation on my part but I tend to think that Judgment for some will not be entirely unpleasant and perhaps even as incredible as a supernatural university! The faithful (under the Old Covenant) who had yet to receive The Promise and the innocent, whether it be by extreme youth (died as babes) or by brain injury or total ignorance due to their environment will be taught and corrected by the elect (through Christ).
I know that there were those from ancient days who looked forward to beyond the grave to this judgment and correction. The elect will play a role in it, could that be why the experiences of so many who hear this calling come from so many diverse backgrounds and places?
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
His Peace to you,
Joe
Deborah-Leigh:
Hi Joe
I agree that some will embrace learning righteousness and others will flee in the opposite direction. :D
Rev 9 : 6 And in those days people will seek death and will not find it; and they will yearn to die, but death evades and flees from them.
Luke 13 : 28 There will be weeping and grinding of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves being cast forth, banished, driven away. 29. And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and sit down, feast at table in the kingdom of God.
Peace to you brother
Arcturus :)
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