Calvanists say this, Help?

[lilitalienboi16]

Okay so i was listening to a calvanist debate a christian. He says God doesn't love us the way we are now. He even quoted a scripture in which he said God hates all workers of inequity and he notes that it is the workers themselves God hates and not the inequity.

Now i understand that when God hates its not the same thing as carnal man hateing. Just as when God does something with the strength of His right arm, and i do something with the strength of my right arm, it's two very different things. After all God thus loves the world that He gave His only begotten Son, yet He hates the workers of inequity? I understand this all. My problem is, are their actualy scriptures that prove God loves us just the way we are - sinful carnal humans?

I always reasoned that God did because otherwise He wouldn't have sent His Son to die for us. If God didn't love us the way we were now, He wouldn't work in us to change us into His Sons image. After all, God does all this out of love right? He loves us so much that He wants us to be like Him, to have what He has. Correct?

Or does God infact not love us the way we are, but rather Loves us because He sees us through Christ and who we will one day be in Christ? This could make sence but than it would just i think be alittle akward to say that because God loves the world and died for it so He must love us the way we are. Sinful and carnal.

Answers? Scripture?

I'm specifcly looking for scriptural answers. Scriptures that would prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that indeed God loves sinners, carnal and sinful and flawed.

Thanks and God bless,

Alex

[Gregor]

Luke 6:32 "But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back. 35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. 36 Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Excerpt from http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3719.0.html

We've stepped out of Sunday School now, and we're going to a little higher level.
You can have this agapao love, for something you hate.  What, yes you can, proof, God does.  He hated Esau, He hates a false witness, He hates people.  He doesn't just hate false witnesses, He hates a false witness, that's a person, you see.

The Christian world would have you believe, He loves the world sooo much.  But the Concordance version has it right,  John 3:16 "For thus God loves the world..."
Not how much He loved the world, although it was a lot, but that is not what the word said.  It does not say, for God loved the world so much, no.  It says this is how He loved the world, that's what it means.  He didn't so love the world, He thus loved the world, in this way and this manner. Now in what manner did He agape the world, "He gave His only begotten Son," ok.  But if you say, God so loved the world, then you are insinuating He has phileo love for the world, right.  That He has this affectionate, endearment of friendship with the world, because He so loved the world.  NO.
This is the manner He loved them, He loved them with this agapao love, which has the benefit and future of humanity at heart.  No where does it say, God phileo loves the world, or any sinner in the world, mark that. 

[Deborah-Leigh]

PS What can anyone learn by listening to two blind men debate re: as Alex notes quote "...a Calvanist debate a christian..." over what they can "see"

[rjsurfs]

What can anyone learn by listening to two blind men debate re: as Alex notes quote  "...a Calvanist debate a christian..." over what they can "see"

Amen Sister!

[Grateful]

GOD IS LOVE.  If His Love has a boundary SOMEwhere, then it is NOT LOVE....for He is BOUNDLESS.....He is ALL that there IS!!

[Sorin]

PS What can anyone learn by listening to two blind men debate re: as Alex notes quote "...a Calvanist debate a christian..." over what they can "see"

LOL!

[psalmsinger]

I "love"  I John Chapter 4 but maybe it's because I cherish the truth of the scriptures:)  It doesn't matter whether we love God, because even in it's best state our love for anything is incomplete and weak.  What does matter is that He loves all people, even sinners.
 
I Jn 4:10
10   Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: " 

You're right, it is funny for a calvinist and a christian to debate one another.  Who could possibly be declared the winner?

Rest in the Lord,

Barbara

[musicman]

Such a debate would be likened to two blind men arguing over the proper way of driving a car.  Go this way, no that way, go faster. . . .  They wouldn't even realize that they're driving over a cliff.

[dewey]

Dear Alex,

Read your post on "Calvanists say this, Help?"  You say you understand, yet you have a problem?  You want to know if there is actually scripture that proves God loves us just the way we are/sinful, cardinal humans?  I read all the posts that the brothers and sisters replied to you about.  I did not see what I am about to say or the scriptures that I found on your subject.  Please understand that these scriptures can mean a magnitude of spiritual meanings as they are parables.  (parables explained - a short, fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principal).  And here we go.  My best shot at fulfilling your request for answers/scriptures.

God proclaimed his love for all human beings and countries (John 3:16).  Going so far as to promise that one day all nations will be blessed (Genesis 26:4) [but it has not happened yet].  His love and his compassion extends so far that he promises to do away with all pain, sorrow and death (Revelations 21:4) [but not yet]. 

However, this same God who explains that he is love (1John 4:8-13) also announces that he will bring his ferocious rath upon those who disobey him (Nahum 1:2) he will be no means clear the guilty (Exodus 34:7) and will bring destruction on the wicked (Psalms 37:20).  When people sin, they break God's law (1John 3:4-5).  There are no sin free people in this day and age; or maybe I should say as far as I know.  I've seen no one walk on water.  A continuation of 1John 3:4-5  -  they earn the wages of sin "death" .  That is not saying eternal torture in Hell; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 6:23).  Here in the Greek interpretations for death means just that.  Not separated from God as some ministers and theologians would have you believe.  Mankind is already cut off from God here in this lifetime.  And here's the proof.  But your iniquities/lawlessness have separated between you and your God and your sins have hid his face from you that he will not hear (Isaiah 59:2).

Brother Alex, the last time that I replied to one of your posts, you came back with a response asking if I had copied what you had posted or if it was my own.  At that time, you informed me that your post and my post were the same; the only difference was that you had backed yours up with scientific proof.  You were under the impression that I had copied your post.  To this I have to say, imitation is the greatest form of flattery.  Love you, my brother

In the name of Jesus Christ, Dewey and Paula love all people

Dewey said it 

[Sorin]

Such a debate would be likened to two blind men arguing over the proper way of driving a car.  Go this way, no that way, go faster. . . .  They wouldn't even realize that they're driving over a cliff.

Amen Brother! 

[Martinez]

It is  the most ridiculous thing in the world to say that God does not love us the way we are now, that's like I don't love my child because they haven't grown up yet!

I despise Calvinism, I mean Christianity is evil but Calvinism takes it to a whole new level!

[Sorin]

It is  the most ridiculous thing in the world to say that God does not love us the way we are now, that's like I don't love my child because they haven't grown up yet!

Well....okay, maybe not God not loving us the way we are now, but He does love some more than others. He favors some over others-hence the vessels of honor, and vessels of dishonor. He blesses some while curses others. And don't forget about Esau...etc...

]I despise Calvinism, I mean Christianity is evil but Calvinism takes it to a whole new level!

On that we can agree!

[Linny]

I am thinking on this...

"Well....okay, maybe not God not loving us the way we are now, but He does love some more than others. He favors some over others-hence the vessels of honor, and vessels of dishonor. He blesses some while curses others. And don't forget about Esau...etc..."

My take on this is that God doen't love some more than others but chooses some over others in order to fullfill His purposes. Like Judas for example or us by opening our eyes to these truths. I believe I have more favor because I believe it, speak it, and thank Him for it beforehand, not because he favors me more than someone else. I think favor is there for the asking/taking. I think we bring on most of our own curses through our sin, poor decisions, lack of looking up, lack of faith.
Scripture says He is no respecter of persons....

Just my OSHO....

[Kat]

Hi Linny,

I believe I have more favor because I believe it, speak it, and thank Him for it beforehand, not because he favors me more than someone else. I think favor is there for the asking/taking.

I was looking at what you are saying here.  You say, I think favor is there for the asking/taking and I have more favor because I...
This sound a lot like free will thinking.  Can we really obtain favor in any way by what WE do?
Here is an email from Ray concerning this.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,567.0.html --------

True, God in His great mercy create situations and circumstances where He draws us, but ultimately w e can choose whether we want to go to God when He draws us to Christ. It's just that some people die before they make the decision. It's His Spirit alone that can convince us of the truth, no human argument whatsoever. It's through Christ alone we can be with God, right?

If I misinterpret your website, please forgive me.

[Ray replies]

We cannot "make the decision" as you state unless God gives us that ability. Faith to believe is a gift of God (Eph. 2:08).  Repentance is a gift from God (Rom. 2:4).  None CAN come to Christ unless God draws (Gk: 'drags') them (John 6:44).  We do NOT "choose Christ," but rather Christ CHOOSES US (John 15:16).  ALL IS OF GOD, Romans 11:32, etc., etc., etc.

No one dies before they "have a CHANCE" to follow Christ. Salvation is not a matter of "chance."  This is not the only day of salvation.

Be sure you read all of my series on the "Free Will Myth."
God be with you,
Ray

[phazel]

I think we bring on most of our own curses through our sin, poor decisions, lack of looking up, lack of faith.

I think we have to determine the "cause" of what you say here.   Our Sin is ours because we commit the sinful act, but God is ultimatly responsible for the circumstances that were preordained to happen.

We may indeed have a lack of faith, but why do we have that lack of faith?  If God determines when the measure of faith is given, then we are not responsible.

We are accountable because "WE" are the ones that have to be changed.  It may seem unfair, but in reality it is the fairest thing there is.   What better place to fall than in the hands of the living God who will ultimatly save everyone and ultimatly bring us to the knowledge of truth?

Once you see accountability in a positive light rather  than the light of condemnation it will start to make more sense.

Rather then condemnation making us accountable, scripture says, "there is now no condemnation in Jesus Christ"  So, if we are still accountable, how can it be a bad thing?

Do YOU really want to be the one that has to figure out the UNSEEN?    NOT ME !!!! 

[mharrell08]

Great point Phazel

[Linny]

First, I didn't mean that I "do" anything to receive favor besides believing it exists. Just as my believing in the salvation of ALL rather than a select few. Both are gifts the Lord has given to me through His revelation. So to me, what Ray says in that quote only backs up what I was saying. It isn't about my free will but His.

As far as "We are accountable because "WE" are the ones that have to be changed.", my wording may have been unclear when I said, "We bring on..."  Nothing happens without a cause. Yahweh is the cause of all. There are consequences for our choices regardless. Some think they are making free will choices, we know we are under the absolute reign of an Almighty God. Either way, consequences follow decisions. Some curses, some blessings, our God-driven choices.

[Sorin]

That Albert Einstein was a pretty smart guy; for he once said: ""A man can very well do what he wants, but he can not will what he wants"

I think he was on to something.

Peace,
Sorin