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Author Topic: Tongues  (Read 4012 times)

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  • There are two kinds of cops.The quick and the dead
« on: February 20, 2008, 06:15:32 PM »

Dear Bryce:  Do you really believe that you have said something meaningful in your email? Do you really think that you have intelligently contradicted what I teach?  I will make a few COMMENTS in your email........

From: Bryce
I wonder if you would be happy to comment on my comments on your article “SPEAKING IN UNKNOWN TONGUES”.
COMMENT:  I am not particularly "happy" to do so, but I will.

    You give examples of pauo as being something that ends quickly and immediately.
    COMMENT:  No, I do not use the word "immediately."  Where did I use that word?
     All your examples appear to be the use of pauo in the present or past tense.  A present or past tense in itself would denote a “now finished” sense, wouldn’t it?
    COMMENT:  No, something that IS PRESENTLY happening, is NOT "now finished."
      The use of pauo in 1 Cornthians appears to be a future tense use of pauo.  There is only one other example of pauo in the future tense (Acts 13:10) and that use is in the negative.  Therefore it seems possible that comparing the use of pauo in 1 Corinthians with its use in other scriptures (except for one) is like comparing apples that have been eaten with apples still on the tree.
    COMMENT:  What kind of nonsense is that suppose to represent? Apples eaten and apples still on the tree are, nonetheless, APPLES, not ORANGES.  Seeing exactly how a particular word WAS USED in the past is the perfect way to see how it is meant TO BE USED in the future. If I did "run" fast in the past, and I intend to yet "run" fast in the futures, will my future running be considerably slower that in the past?  Just what is it you are trying to prove by putting a verb in the future as opposed to in the past?
    You said that sometimes katargeo can be used in a situation where something comes to an end rather quickly, but many many times it is used to describe something that is fading into disuse.  Does this mean that katargeo has different meanings in different parts of the scripture?  Do other words have different meanings in different parts of the scripture?  If so, how do we know what words mean what and where?
    COMMENT:  That is WHY Paul uses two different words in I Cor. 13, and that is WHY I took the time to show you the DIFFERENCES in how these two words are used.  How hard can this be?  Look at the verse in question:

    1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail [katargeo]; whether there be tongues, they shall cease [katargeo? NO--PAUO]; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away [katargeo].
     If these all eventually come to an end in the distant future, why did not Paul use "katargeo" for all three, rather than change the time of ending with reference to tongues ONLY?  Because it was to "end" differently than the other two, that's why.

    Is it is the use of the word katargeo that that denotes a time delay or is it the use of a phrase separate from katargeo or the context in which katargeo appears that denotes any time delay?
    In Luke 13:7 it is the phrase “three years” that gives the period of time that the tree is fully cumbering (not a gradual process) the ground.
    In your comment regarding 1 Corinthians 6:13 you say that:
    In this verse we see that the process of God "…discarding [katargeo] it and them…" is still going on after two thousand years.
    Are you saying that God is gradually destroying meats and stomachs little by little until eventually they will be completely destroyed?  Are humans going to be walking around with less and less of a stomach until there are no more stomachs?  Are you being ridiculous?  It is the context that implies a waiting time until the discarding, not the word katargeo itself.  When it came wouldn’t the actual discarding be quick?  Please reassure me.  A gradual diminishing of the stomach doesn’t sound comfortab le to me.  What would I eat while I waited?  Gradually diminishing meat?
    COMMENT:  I'm sorry, but your argument is so over-the-top nonsense, that I hardly know what to say?  Do you really believe that Paul is speaking about literal food and literal stomachs in this verse?  And you call me "ridiculous?"  Have you ever heard of that "calling the kettle BLACK" saying?  If Paul is speaking of literal meat/food to eat and digest in our literal bellies/stomachs, then you wouldn't need to worry about eating "gradually diminishing meat"--you would PHYSICALLY DIE in a few days!  It is the LUSTS of this world and our LUSTS for pleasure (as in eating delicious foods to satisfy our stomach's cravings) that will be ultimately destroy in judgment. Our judgment is now, and the rest of the world's judgment is when God's JUDGMENTS ARE IN THE EARTH and all will learn righteousness (Isa. 26: 9).
    And in regard to 1 Corinthians 13:8-10, katargeo is mentioned three times.  In verse 10, when that which is perfect is come (to me it appears to be the same time that we see face to face (verse 12)), then that which is in part shall be done away rather quickly (or is that instantly).
    COMMENT:  Yes, when it FINALLY ends, it's end will not continue for a long period of time. But notice that this process of ending; this process of katargeo continues and lasts for some time BEFORE it finally ends.  Hence the words:  "...then that which is in part shall be..."  That which "is in part" is the thing that will be "katargeo," and it is plain from the sentence that this thing "IS" for some time before it reaches its final end.
    Just maybe I Cor. 13:11 will help you to understand:

    1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

    When did Paul "put away [Gk: katargeo] childish things?"  When "I became a man."  Does a body "become a man" in one day? a week? a month?  of even in ONE YEAR?  This verse shows perfectly how "katargeo" is a process to an end, whereas "pauo" is used time and again to show something that quickly comes to an end.

    I have other things to write to you in regard to your article.  But I’ll send you this in the meantime to see what your response will be.
    COMMENT:  No, please, please, I have not more time for this, Bryce, no more.
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