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Author Topic: trinity question  (Read 2570 times)

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Dave UK

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trinity question
« on: March 16, 2008, 08:44:34 PM »

Hi
I need some clarification please

The following two scriptures have been presented to me as evidence of the existence of the Trinity. they say that at the baptism of Jesus the face that the voice (the Father) and the dove (the Spirit) clearly demonstrate the trinity being present at Jesus's baptism

Mat 3:15  But Jesus answered him, "Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he consented.
Mat 3:16  And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him;
Mat 3:17  and behold, a voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."

Likewise they say, the acts 5 incident with Ananias and Saphirra also clearly demonstrates that the Holy Spirit is also God

Act 5:3  But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land?
Act 5:4  While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."

and finally

Mat 28:19  Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

This does appear to be an authentic scripture (not spurious) and would on the surface appear strong evidence for those that uphold the Trinity doctrine.

Your input would be appreciated

Dave





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Dennis Vogel

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Re: trinity question
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2008, 10:14:08 PM »

As Ray is fond of saying "Who conceived Jesus?" "Who is Jesus' Father?"

The trinity has it origins in paganism. It was adopted by Babylon to obtain more members. And it has worked for ages.

Pure superstition.
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jerreye

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Re: trinity question
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2008, 10:50:23 PM »

Actually, Dave, Matt 28:19 is indeed a spurious passage. Here is a good read:

http://www.israelofgod.org/Constantine.htm

Also, when you lie to the Holy Spirit, you are lying to God, as God works THROUGH His Spirit. When the scriptures talk of the "PERSON" of God, as opposed to an actual WORK of God, "the Father" is mentioned, but when an Act/Characteristic/Power etc is being spoken of, the "holy spirit" is mentioned. An example would be when the holy spirit was "poured out". A "person" was not being poured, since obviously, a person cannot be "poured". However, the love and power of God CAN be poured, and that is the holy spirit.

Another is when the Pharisees were claiming that Jesus was casting out demons by the power of Beelzebub (Satan) as opposed to the power of God (the Holy Spirit). Jesus said that if any man blasphemes the SON (Jesus) it will be forgiven him, but if any man blasphemes the Holy Spirit, it will NOT be forgiven him (for this age or the next). Now, if the holy spirit is a co-equal, co-eternal, SEPARATE person FROM the Father and the Son, WHY would blaspheming the so-called "PERSON" of the holy spirit be unpardonable (for this age and the next), while blaspheming Jesus WILL be pardoned in this age? Is the holy spirit "person" more easily offended and unforgiving or something? Nope :)

Blaspheming the power/work etc. of God and claiming that that power is NOT of Him, but of the devil is the reason. Blaspheming the PERSON is not near as bad as blaspheming the power / work / love OF that person. This is another proof that the holy spirit is simply the spirit (power/work) OF the Father and not some other separate spirit person.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2008, 10:51:26 PM by jerreye »
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Kat

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Re: trinity question
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2008, 10:56:11 PM »

Hi Dave,

It seems to me that people will find a Scripture and make it work with their doctrine.  No where does the Scripture plainly state what would be a very profound knowledge, that God is three presons.  So that's what I think they are doing with these Scripture.  Just because the Holy Spirit is spoken of at the same time as the Father, so they say it is another person and forms the third person of the triune God  ???  I just think this is a very weak argument, in the absence of a firm Scripture that states this trinity idea.

Quote
Mat 28:19  Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

This does appear to be an authentic scripture (not spurious) and would on the surface appear strong evidence for those that uphold the Trinity doctrine.

This is addressed in the Trinity article.

http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html -------------------------

Here is the main Scripture used by Trinitarians to try and make people believe that God is a trinity:

"Going, then, disciple all nations baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit [Authorized, ghost]..." (Mat. 28:19).

And how does this verse prove that God is a three-in-one trinity? I DON’T KNOW! It certainly doesn’t say that these three form ONE GOD. Or that these three are coequal with one another. They are just all three mentioned in one verse, that’s all.

The mention of the "holy spirit" in this verse no more proves that the holy spirit is the third God part of a trinity than the mention of "the Comforter" in John 15:26 proves that it is the fourth God part of a quartet, or the mention of "the spirit of Truth" in this same verse in the fifth God part of a quintet!
---------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Robin

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Re: trinity question
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2008, 11:14:13 PM »

I found this in an email to Ray


And another final point in Matthew 3:16-17 says "As soon as
> Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was
> opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on
> him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I
> am well pleased." As yu see in this passage we Have Jesus, God the Son, The
> Dove/Spirit of God, God the Holy Spirit, and God the Father all present. I
> welcome you to explain these verses away,
 
COMMENT:  There is nothing to "explain away."  The Spirit of God is
NOT A PERSON, and a dove is NOT A PERSON. So where in the world
do you get a "third triune PERSON out of a dove?"
 
One more time:  Jesus Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit OF God
His Father. That is why He is "the Son of the FATHER," and not "the Son of the
Holy Spirit."  Am I going to fast for you? Do you have an answer for this one point
alone which totally demolishes the "Holy Spirit is a separate person from Jesus and His
Father and therefore God is a triune of three separate people). You don't have an answer
for why Jesus is not "the Son of the Holy Spirit," DO YOU?  Did you know Andrew that
every little school boy in the street knows that whoever "conceives" a child is the FATHER
of that child when it is born. Why is it that you and most of Christendom does not know this
simple biological and Scriptural truth. How can ONE PERSON of your "trinity" conceive
a child, and then when it is born it is the SON OF A DIFFERENT PERSON of your trinity?
Oh, forget it: you are not interested in the Truths of God or the honesty of His Word.
Sincerely,
Ray

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4463.0.html
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: trinity question
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2008, 12:54:28 AM »

Hi Dave,

It seems to me that people will find a Scripture and make it work with their doctrine.  No where does the Scripture plainly state what would be a very profound knowledge, that God is three presons.  So that's what I think they are doing with these Scripture.  Just because the Holy Spirit is spoken of at the same time as the Father, so they say it is another person and forms the third person of the triune God  ???  I just think this is a very weak argument, in the absence of a firm Scripture that states this trinity idea.

Quote
Mat 28:19  Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

This does appear to be an authentic scripture (not spurious) and would on the surface appear strong evidence for those that uphold the Trinity doctrine.

This is addressed in the Trinity article.

http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html -------------------------

Here is the main Scripture used by Trinitarians to try and make people believe that God is a trinity:

"Going, then, disciple all nations baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit [Authorized, ghost]..." (Mat. 28:19).

And how does this verse prove that God is a three-in-one trinity? I DON’T KNOW! It certainly doesn’t say that these three form ONE GOD. Or that these three are coequal with one another. They are just all three mentioned in one verse, that’s all.

The mention of the "holy spirit" in this verse no more proves that the holy spirit is the third God part of a trinity than the mention of "the Comforter" in John 15:26 proves that it is the fourth God part of a quartet, or the mention of "the spirit of Truth" in this same verse in the fifth God part of a quintet!
---------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat



Kat, that scripture though does not appear in the earliest of manuscripts and seem to have been placed in sometime later to help support the trinity. It is not authentic from what i have read. So although ray is right, it doesn't prove anything - It doesn't even belong in the scriptures as it is not an authentic verse. It was added many years later. Many many.

God bless,

Alex
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Kat

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Re: trinity question
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2008, 10:59:00 AM »


Hi Alex,

Well all I have to go on is Tischendorf’s list of spurious Scripture and he only has the "therefore" as being spurious.

But there is a Scripture that is spurious in 1 John 5:7 "...in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Were you thinking of that Scripture maybe?

mercy, peace and love
Kat


 
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: trinity question
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2008, 12:21:24 PM »


Hi Alex,

Well all I have to go on is Tischendorf’s list of spurious Scripture and he only has the "therefore" as being spurious.

But there is a Scripture that is spurious in 1 John 5:7 "...in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Were you thinking of that Scripture maybe?

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hmm perhaps, that might be it. However i do recall reading this verse online as being spuriouse as well from a few sights. I'll have to look it up again. Forgive me if i am wrong.

God bless,

Alex
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Robin

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Re: trinity question
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2008, 03:46:05 PM »

I have the Hebrew Gospel of Mathew and it reads like this.

Mathew 28

19Go
20and (teach) them to carry out all the things which I have commanded you forever.

Here is an article I found on it.

http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/matt2819-willis.htm
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Dave UK

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Re: trinity question
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2008, 04:52:33 PM »

Hi everyone
thanks there is some very helpful stuff there amongst the answers given,
particularly useful was the information regarding Matthew's gospel.I was a bit thrown by it's inclusion in the Concordant ,ISA, and it's omission from Tischendorf’s list of spurious Scriptures , so that's clearer now .
thanks again
Dave
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: trinity question
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2008, 07:42:53 PM »

I have the Hebrew Gospel of Mathew and it reads like this.

Mathew 28

19Go
20and (teach) them to carry out all the things which I have commanded you forever.

Here is an article I found on it.

http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/matt2819-willis.htm

Thanks, i knew i read it somewhere! :)))

God bless,

Alex
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