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Craig:
--- Quote from: phazel on March 25, 2008, 07:50:58 AM ---
--- Quote from: Craig on March 23, 2008, 05:41:28 PM --- But I also believe He puts the ability through His spirit to know what the wise choice would be, we just choose to ignore it.
--- End quote ---
OK, this is exactly why I can't wrap my mind around having no free will. According to what we believe Ray has taught, the choice to ignore it was the only choice that could have happened, yet you word this as if thats not so.
--- End quote ---
No doubt that "free will" is tough to wrap. I may have worded things wrong, wouldn't be the first time. :o
The following is how I wrap my mind on the free will issue. Its my way of thinking, if I'm wrong I am open to correction, but I will not get into a what if debate either. So here goes :)
We have choices, we make choices, God knows what our choices will be before we make them. But at the same time I believe God puts it in our being to actually make a choice on things. Do you think a sane person who murders has some thought go through his/her mind "I maybe should not do this"?
Musicman asked about a choice he is making. We all make choices and as we become closer to God, the choices get harder and harder, like musicmans.
Say I have a choice to make on whether to lie or not. I know in my spirit, I should not lie, but ignore the voice of the Spirit and lie like a politician. God created me in the weakened carnal state, so he knows what choice I will make, (I will fail) and I will be held accountable for my choice.
In our fallen state our choices are made on our own desires and wants, not God's. God made us in the state we are in (carnal, sinning machines) so he is responsible for our spiritually weakened state, but we will be accountable for our fleshed out choices and desires, because we want to make them! We ignore the voice of God in us and continue to do so until God drags us out of the mud of our flesh and we begin to pay attention to him. It is a required step we all go through until God is all in all.
Cause and effect does come into play also. It is only by the grace of God that I/all of us are not murderers and Hitlers. Given the same circumstances (causes) we would all make the same spiritually weakened choices as these people, but God chose to lead us not into those temptations. God makes us vessels of honor and dishonor, and who are we (clay) to question the potter? But alas, I do and we all do, :(
If, in this lifetime, we could be of the same Spirit of God and one with Him, out of the thousands of choices we make a day, all our choices would be true and correct (Like Christs). But we are not given this oneness of spirit, it is being made in our being. We are being created into the image of God.
God knows the beginning and ending and the perfect steps it takes to go from one to the other.
We are not being made into puppets we are being perfected to being like Christ, where we are given many choices, and we make the right choices. Then we can say that "I and my Father are one."
This is my thoughts on working out the "free will" illusion and I still struggle with the "whys". I believe that "free will" is the hardest truth to comprehend because "free will" is the 'Heart and mind" of the beast (carnal man) and he won't let it easily die.
A good email of many
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2259.0.html
Craig
mharrell08:
Great post Craig...I couldn't agree with you more.
hillsbororiver:
Great response Craig,
Our minds, desires and weaknesses are as unique as our DNA and our fingerprints, God is creating each and every one of us according to His plan, no two of us exactly the same. The one thing we will all eventually have (as you explained above) is our own wills aligned with the will of God.
This does not come easily or without the tribulations that more often than not come from making the wrong decision consciously from the heart, we usually know when we are making a bad choice but out of anger, lust, selfishness, impatience, etc. we do it anyway. Once we begin to really become sick and tired of the consequences and of ignoring that small, quiet (yet persistant) voice within then, and only then will we lay to rest our own will and seek only His.
We all need to listen intently to hear Him speaking to us and follow where He leads.
Peace,
Joe
Deborah-Leigh:
From your post Joe, quoting Ray : When one makes a choice, one selects what one prefers
This is so revealing as to show us what we prefer. WHAT WE PREFER, points to our spiritual condition. This is why we work out our salvation in fear and trembling because God willing, He shows to us our spiritual condition. When God does this, the consequence should be, fear and trembling knowing God is the potter and we are the clay. Only by His Grace we are made into vessles that house the Spirit of His Son.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
Chris R:
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on March 25, 2008, 10:34:57 AM ---Great response Craig,
Our minds, desires and weaknesses are as unique as our DNA and our fingerprints, God is creating each and every one of us according to His plan, no two of us exactly the same. The one thing we will all eventually have (as you explained above) is our own wills aligned with the will of God.
This does not come easily or without the tribulations that more often than not come from making the wrong decision consciously from the heart, we usually know when we are making a bad choice but out of anger, lust, selfishness, impatience, etc. we do it anyway. Once we begin to really become sick and tired of the consequences and of ignoring that small, quiet (yet persistant) voice within then, and only then will we lay to rest our own will and seek only His.
We all need to listen intently to hear Him speaking to us and follow where He leads.
Peace,
Joe
--- End quote ---
I also agree, The further we journey, the rougher the road.
We must repent, and God grants us this repentance, It is not of ourselves, unless we should boast and have pride in a accomplishment none of us are able to claim. While we make choices good and bad, God has known from the beginning who are His, and there is nothing we are capable of doing that will change this one truth.
Will Gods chosen PRAY for wisdom...YES.. Will Gods Chosen ask for repentance..YES.. Will Gods Chosen NOT BE CHOSEN....NO!
All these things are directed from God, There in lies the demolishing blow to "free will".... One little verse
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.[John 6:37]
Peace
Chris R
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