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Author Topic: 2012?  (Read 4993 times)

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Sorin

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2012?
« on: March 24, 2008, 01:30:32 AM »

From the email section:

> Dear Ray,
>
> I was wondering: do you think a catastrophe will occur on Dec. 21st, 2012. I've
> always found interest in this subject. I thought it was ironic that this alleged
> catastrophe will happen on the date I was born. It seems that multiple sources
> say this will indeed happen. I just get a little paranoid, that's all. What do
> you think?
>
> Sincerely,
> Kyle


        Dear Kyle: Should I live to 2012 (I'll be in my seventies then), I suspect I will sleep as well as I do now, and the my schedule will not be changed one iota by this date. Do not let the calendar of the pagan South American Indians or any other pagans cause you fear.

        God be with you,

        Ray

------------------

 Just because it's Pagan, doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong. The world could end on that date; I wouldn't be so sure as to say that it absolutely won't. And the Indians weren't the only ones that came up with that date. That's what makes it even more interesting to me.

Not saying I believe it, or am frightened by it, but you never know, it could be correct.

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Stevernator

  • Guest
Re: 2012?
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2008, 02:00:46 AM »

Mar 13:32 Now concerning that day or hour no one is aware - neither the messengers in heaven, nor the Son - except the Father."
Mar 13:33 Beware! Be vigilant and pray, for you are not aware when the era is."
Mar 13:34 It is as a man, a traveler, leaving his home and giving his slaves authority, and to each his work, and he directs the doorkeeper that he may be watching."
Mar 13:35 Watch, then, for you are not aware when the lord of the house is coming, at evening, or midnight, or cockcrowing, or morning,
Mar 13:36 that, coming suddenly, he may not be finding you drowsing."
Mar 13:37 Now what I am saying to you, I am saying to all: 'Watch!'"

It says no one is aware so I would not think about it too much. If someone says they know when the end comes they may be deceived.
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Sorin

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Re: 2012?
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2008, 02:14:21 AM »

I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.  Mar 13:30

It's been over two-thousand years, that generation is long gone, and those things have not happened.
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: 2012?
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2008, 03:02:01 AM »

I edited my post because it might have come off wrong.

EDIT:

Dear Sorin i must say i am surprised that you would allow pagan superstitions to cause you doubt and that you do not understand Jesus's Words in the verse you quoted.

God be with you,

Alex
« Last Edit: March 24, 2008, 03:03:59 AM by lilitalienboi16 »
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Sorin

  • Guest
Re: 2012?
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2008, 03:07:41 AM »

I edited my post because it might have come off wrong.

EDIT:

Dear Sorin i must say i am surprised that you would allow pagan superstitions to cause you doubt

Hi Alex,

How have I 'allowed pagan superstitions to cause me doubt'?


Quote
and that you do not understand Jesus's Words in the verse you quoted.

God be with you,

Alex

What makes you think I don't understand Jesus' words in the verse I quoted?

Peace,
Sorin
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lilitalienboi16

  • Guest
Re: 2012?
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2008, 03:11:19 AM »

I edited my post because it might have come off wrong.

EDIT:

Dear Sorin i must say i am surprised that you would allow pagan superstitions to cause you doubt

Hi Alex,

How have I 'allowed pagan superstitions to cause me doubt'?


Quote
and that you do not understand Jesus's Words in the verse you quoted.

God be with you,

Alex

What makes you think I don't understand Jesus' words in the verse I quoted?

Peace,
Sorin

The very fact that you would consider the possibility of something insane occuring on 2012 leads me to believe that these pagan superstitions have caused you doubt in the fact that Christ said NO MAN knows the hour or day, that includes the mayans and the year 2012.

Also you said this;

"It's been over two-thousand years, that generation is long gone, and those things have not happened."

To that you are wrong. That generation is not long gone and those things are happening. Christ Words are 100% true, you just don't understand what He was saying.

So your first post coupled with this rescent statement of this generation being lone gone and nothing haveing happened furthermore suggests me to believe that you do indeed, doubt Christ's Words.

John 6:63 "My Words they are SPIRIT and THEY ARE LIFE."

Spirit...

God be with you,

Alex

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Sorin

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Re: 2012?
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2008, 03:37:18 AM »

The very fact that you would consider the possibility of something insane occuring on 2012

Who said anything about 'something insane occuring on 2012'? 

I said: "The world could end on that date; I wouldn't be so sure as to say that it absolutely won't."

How is the world ending "something insane"? Doesn't even The Bible mention that it will in fact end?






leads me to believe that these pagan superstitions have caused you doubt in the fact that Christ said NO MAN knows the hour or day, that includes the mayans and the year 2012.

Caused me doubt about what? And since NO MAN knows the hour or day, than how can ANY MAN know with absolute certainty that that is not the day?

Also you said this;

"It's been over two-thousand years, that generation is long gone, and those things have not happened."

To that you are wrong. That generation is not long gone and those things are happening. Christ Words are 100% true, you just don't understand what He was saying.

I'm not wrong about anything; I was trying to prove a point. Now it seems I will have to prove that point to you as well.
Stevernator quoted those verses above, about how no man knows the hour or day and so forth, and therefore, Dec 21st 2012 can't be the date. So I responded with Mark 13:30 to show, that Jesus also said that that generation will not pass away, yet it obviously did. But therein lies my point, Mark 13:30 is not to be taken literally, as you even acknowledged, His words are Spirit.
 
So what makes you think you can take Mark 13:32-37 literally, I mean absolutely literally, but when it comes to Mark 13:30 you know that it is not to be taken literally? My point was when you take it literally, there's a problem, but some people like to jump to conclusions, about what I believe or disbelieve, know or don't know.


So your first post coupled with this rescent statement of this generation being lone gone and nothing haveing happened furthermore suggests me to believe that you do indeed, doubt Christ's Words.

John 6:63 "My Words they are SPIRIT and THEY ARE LIFE."

Spirit...


Again, all this could have been avoided if somebody would've just responded to my second post with 'that's not to be taken literally"... and I would have said, YEAH I KNOW, and what makes you think Mark 13: 32-37 is to be taken literally? 


« Last Edit: March 24, 2008, 04:24:35 AM by Sorin »
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: 2012?
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2008, 04:45:12 AM »

I see now we had a big mis understanding. I believe the way you worded you're second post was very confuseing. When you said the generation had passed, i didn't see it as such. So i responded promptly. I wish you would have clarified that but none the less, no harm done.

For those who don't understand how it is that the generation has not passed. I have this to clarify that.

Matt 1:17 "So all the generations from Abraham to David are FOURTEEN generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are FOURTEEN generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon into CHRIST are FOURTEEN generations."

Take out your bible and read the names. You will find that we should end up with 42 generations with Christ being the 42nd name on the list.

However what do you find? You find that He isn't.Christ is infact number 41.

There is one generation missing. So who is number 42?

Who is THIS generation of mark 13:30?

Who are Christ's decendents and bare His name?

Isaiah 53;8-10 "He was taken from prison and from judgment: and WHO SHALL DECLARE HIS GENERATION? for He was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was He stricken. And He made His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in His death; because He had done no violence, neither was any deceit in His mouth. Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him, He hath put Him to grief, when thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin, HE SHALL SEE HIS SEED, HE SHALL PROLONG HIS DAYS, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand."

Psalm22:30-31 ''A seed shall serve Him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for A GENERATION. They shall come, and shall DECLARE HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS unto a people that shall be born, that He hath done this."
 
I Peter 2:9 "BUT YE ARE A CHOSEN GENERATION, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of Him who hath called you out of darkness into His marvelous light."


Rev.11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of OUR LORD AND OF HIS CHRIST; and He shall reign forever and ever."

So we know that Jesus is Lord. Who is His Christ?

Psalms 2 "Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against His anointed (Christ), saying, Let us break THEIR bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh; the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my HOLY HILL OF ZION. I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, THOU ART MY SON: this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. THOU SHALT BREAK THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON: THOU SHALT DASH THEM IN PIECES LIKE A POTTER'S VESSEL."

The annointed, the overcomer,the few,the chosen, the body  OF CHRIST----this is the 42nd generation and this IS that GENERATION that SHALL NOT PASS, UNTIL ALL THESE THINGS BE FULLFILLED.

Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

We are that generation.

In Christ,

Alex
« Last Edit: March 24, 2008, 04:53:31 AM by lilitalienboi16 »
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Truth101

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Re: 2012?
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2008, 10:34:46 AM »

lilitalienboi16,

Awsome clarification on that. God bless you and continue to feed you.

Dave
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David

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Re: 2012?
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2008, 01:27:40 PM »

In the late 90s the end of the world according to pagans, the media, even some Christians was going to be 12.am January 1st 2000. We're still here.
If we pray in the manner in which Christ commanded us, then we pray for His kingdom to come, and we pray for the Fathers will to be done. 
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phazel

  • Guest
Re: 2012?
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2008, 02:43:18 PM »

I think the point Sorin was trying to make is that while people for ages have predicted the end of the world,  you also cannot say that any specific date  will not be when it happens.

This is not a statement of belief in the end of the world in 2012,  its just since no one can know,  then no one can claim YES or NO to ANY date.


What I believe to be true, is that the date 2012 is not correct based on someones ability to predict anything.  It would be the time because if it happens, thats when God planned for it.

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dewey

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Re: 2012?
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2008, 08:03:01 PM »

In the late 90s the end of the world according to pagans, the media, even some Christians was going to be 12.am January 1st 2000. We're still here.
If we pray in the manner in which Christ commanded us, then we pray for His kingdom to come, and we pray for the Fathers will to be done. 
[
/quote]   Good job David, and I beleve, that statement will most likely end this thread ,why because your post say
s it all .  I n the spirit of Christ , love ya brother ,and dewey said it
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Samson

  • Guest
Re: 2012?
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2008, 10:07:58 PM »

Hello Everyone,


                      At first, I was going to avoid this thread, thinking whether or not, I wanted to go there. Since my former Religion of Twenty years(JW'S) were masters at making predictions regarding Jesus second coming(Parasousia or Erkomai) in which none of them came true, thought I would make a few comments. None of my comments are meant to criticize those who have curiosity about date-setting or end time Eschatology.

                      Stevernator mentioned some scriptures applicable to the discussion, adding to that Acts. 1:7; " It does not belong to you to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction ", also Matthew. 24:44 states " On this account you too prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that you do not think it to be, the Son of Man is coming." Luke. 21:8 " He said: Look out that you are not misled, for many will come in my name, saying I am he, and the due time has approached." Matthew. 24:23-27 " Then if anyone says to you, Look, here is the Christ or There, do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. Look I have forewarned you. Therefore if people say to you, Look, He is in the wilderness, do not go out; Look, he is in the inner chambers, do not believe it. For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence or coming of the son of man will be."

               Luke. 17:24 states, " For even as the LIGHTNING(GK-Epiphaneia, means An appearance coming into light or view, manifestation) by its' flashing , shines from one part under heaven to another part under heaven, so the Son of Man will be."

              After twenty years of being subjected to the building of expectations, people cashing in retirement plans, insurance policies, selling houses, foregoing necessary medical attention, limiting ones education and lifelong plans based on an Organizations insistence and judicial pressure to rely on a particular end-time date, I NOW PROCEED WITH CAUTION WHEN CONSIDERING DATE-SETTING METHODS.

              I leave all of you with a Scripture that brought me comfort as a result of all this; Deuteronomy. 18:22, " When the Prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak, with presumptuousness the Prophet spoke it, YOU MUST NOT GET FRIGHTENED AT HIM." ( Some of the dates that supposedly were going to be the start of Armageddon: 1914, 1918, 1925,1975(heavily implied) and possibly alluding to 2034(based on the 120 years mentioned in Genesis. 6:3 added to 1914(originally believed to be the start of armageddon and changed to the beginning of the last days & the invisible return of Christ).

            However, as stated in my first paragraph, this doesn't imply anyone shouldn't be allowed to be curious about THE END, just don't get duped like I used to be, Be awake, Be Alert, Be in expectation of it, but proceed with some caution. Just my thoughts and opinions on date-setting, for whatever it's worth.

                         Your brother in Christ, Samson.
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David

  • Guest
Re: 2012?
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2008, 10:57:48 PM »

In the late 90s the end of the world according to pagans, the media, even some Christians was going to be 12.am January 1st 2000. We're still here.
If we pray in the manner in which Christ commanded us, then we pray for His kingdom to come, and we pray for the Fathers will to be done. 
 
Good job David, and I beleve, that statement will most likely end this thread ,why because your post say
s it all .  I n the spirit of Christ , love ya brother ,and dewey said it

My love to you too brother, peace and belssings to you, and to all.
David.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2008, 11:28:49 PM by David »
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Sorin

  • Guest
Re: 2012?
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2008, 11:20:29 PM »

Hi Samson,

I know what you are saying; and I agree. I never said that I believe the world is going to end on 2012. I just said that no one can say for sure that it won't. Just like no one can say for sure that tomorrow won't be the last day. We know not what will be on the morrow.

I am by no means going to change my life or anything. I will still live my life like I have another 70 yrs to go; yet I may not even live til my next b-day. But be that as it may, I'm not going to sell sell everything I own, and prepare for doom come 2012 {Should I live that long}.

However it will be interesting to see what will happen, if anything at all. I think most likely it will be just like the Y2k scare; but you never know.

Peace,
Sorin

P.S. There are certain Scientifically accurate things going to occur on that date; but that does not mean the world will end.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2008, 11:22:33 PM by Sorin »
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Samson

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Re: 2012?
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2008, 11:31:24 PM »

Hi Samson,

I know what you are saying; and I agree. I never said that I believe the world is going to end on 2012. I just said that no one can say for sure that it won't. Just like no one can say for sure that tomorrow won't be the last day. We know not what will be on the morrow.

I am by no means going to change my life or anything. I will still live my life like I have another 70 yrs to go; yet I may not even live til my next b-day. But be that as it may, I'm not going to sell sell everything I own, and prepare for doom come 2012 {Should I live that long}.

However it will be interesting to see what will happen, if anything at all. I think most likely it will be just like the Y2k scare; but you never know.

Peace,
Sorin

P.S. There are certain Scientifically accurate things going to occur on that date; but that does not mean the world will end.


     Hello Sorin,

                      I just want you to know that my Post wasn't directed at you or anyone in particular. I guess I just couldn't resist commenting in general about a thread related to THE END, in reality I prefer listening to the song by The Doors titled-THE END ;D ;D ;D; Rather than thinking about dates, the only date I have in mind is the date I have with my Wife, when she returns home from work tonight.

                                           Your Brother, Samson.
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Sorin

  • Guest
Re: 2012?
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2008, 11:37:46 PM »

A Doors fan aye? Nice.  ;D
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Chris R

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Re: 2012?
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2008, 07:51:21 AM »

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,  And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.    And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.  And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven

 this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Whos generation?... the generation that sees these things

Well..have you all "seen these things"

Chris R.
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Kat

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Re: 2012?
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2008, 10:47:09 AM »


Hi Chris,

Quote
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
v
v
this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Whos generation?... the generation that sees these things

Well..have you all "seen these things"

That reminds me that Ray talked about the 'moon' at the Mobile conference.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.0.html --------

            DISCIPLES THOUGHT JESUS WOULD COME IN THEIR LIFETIME

I Thess. 4:15  For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

Paul said, ďwe who are alive and remain.Ē  Now you could say heís just saying ďwe,Ē whoever the we are at that time of His coming.  But no, it sounds like heís saying, we right now here.  Those of us that are alive until His coming, we wonít actually go to sleep weíll just be changed.  You know, heíll come and the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we will rise to meet the Lord in the air. 

I Cor. 15:51  Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleepÖ
 
Paul thought Christ would come before he would go to sleep(die).
 
v. 53 Öbut we shall all be changed,
v. 52  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

James 5:7  Be patient therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord.

Like He is coming soon, just be patient and hang in there.

Joel 2:28  And it shall be afterward, I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh. And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy; your old men shall dream dreams; your young men shall see visions.
v. 29  And also I will pour out My Spirit on the slaves and on the slave women in those days.
v. 30  And I will show wonders in the heavens, and in the earth, blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
v. 31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of Jehovah.

Acts 2:15  For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.
v. 16  but this is that which hath been spoken through the prophet Joel:
v. 17  And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour forth of My Spirit upon all flesh: And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams:

Peter thought, well this is the last days.  Now he was right, he was inspired to write that because God did start pouring out His Spirit on Pentecost.  So that was the last days.  How long do the last days last?  Until they are over.  Itís been a pretty long time.  But he didnít finish the prophecy, he quoted Joel, but he didnít finish all of Joel.  Because it doesnít all fit then.  But the portion that he did quote, it does fit then. 

You say, Ďbut didnít it mention heavenly signs.í  He said, you know these people arenít drunk.  These people are like the people that prophesied in Joel,  where it says they shall dream dreams and see visions, all of that.  And the sun shall not give itís light and the moon shall turn to blood. 

Acts 2:20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the day of the Lord come, That great and notable day.

Did that happen on Pentecost?  Yes it did!  How so?  How did the sun not give itís light?  How did the moon instead of reflecting light, turn to blood? 

Light is symbolic of Godís Truth.  Jesus Christ is the light.  The brightest physical symbol of light, brightness, this is our sun.  So light comes from the strongest source.  God - Jesus Christ is that light. 

John the Baptist said, ďthat the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light,Ē (John 3:19).  But He was that light.  The Son gives light, thatís direct revelation from God.

Now the moon is the reflected light.  That should come through the church and through the ministry.  They get it from the Son.  The moon (church) reflects itís light from the Son (Christ), it doesnít have itís own light (Truth).  If the sun went out, the moon would go out, because the moon has no light, itís reflected light. 
So as the ministry gets light, they give it to the congregation, they feed the sheep. 

But what did He say would happen, starting on Pentecost?  The sun/Son isnít going to give itís light anymore.  God is not going to give direct light to the people anymore.  The light that should be coming, that was already given to the moon, to be reflected, now itís not going to give itís light.  Itís going to be turned to blood.  What is this talking about?

Their revelation from God was going to cease.  Apostasy is going to set in.  The church is going to go amuck and instead of teaching the light from God and passing it on, they are going to turn to blood.  How so?

Well on that very day they stoned Stephen (Acts 7).  Instead of giving light to the world as a secondary light, they turned to blood.  They turned murderers. 
Tomorrow we are going to go through and see how many men, who wanted to present Godís Word to everyday people like us, they had to pay with their lives.  Well who would do such a dastardly thing?  The moon!  The secondary light of Godís Truth - the church - the Popes - the Bishops.  If you even hadÖ. you didnít have to teach it or even read it, if you were found with a copy of Tyndaleís Bible, you were put to death.  I mean it was pretty bad.

Tyndale was burned at the stake.  Russ was burned at the stake, lots of people were burned at the stake.  They kind of took the Catholics out of England for a while.  Then bloody Mary came back and she wanted to bring back the Catholic church.  Then she started burning people at the stake.  She said, ĎIím not doing anything to these people, that God isnít going to do to them for all eternity.  Iím not doing anything wrong.í  She didnít see anything wrong with burning people at the stake.  Itís unbelievable. 

Calvin didnít see anything wrong with burning people at the stake either.  That man is so adored by so many.  I mean considered the greatest theologian.  He was, I mean absolutely the scum of the earth. 

Martin Luther although he did a lot of good things, you just read what his attitude was towards the peasants.  ĎKill them all and make it dirty, make it fast.í  No mercy.

So it did start then.  They went from teaching Godís Truth, they turned their hands to blood.  They killed Stephen, a real saintly man, they killed him and gnawed on him with their teeth.  They just despised that man.  You donít know what hatred is.  Like Iíve said so many times, hell hath no fury like a Christian whoís just been told the Truth.
------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat


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Jam 4:14 " whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. What is your life? For ye are a vapor, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away."
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