God=Love

[Dante]

Ok,....I am gonna throw something out there and see if it sticks.

Since most of the world's population from start to finish has never heard the Word of God, and for that matter never even heard of Jesus Christ, What are the chances that when Jesus states that the only way to the Father is through me. He means that the only way to God is through what Jesus Christ represents.
Now there is so much to God that we cannot even list it here on this page or on the whole internet for that matter.

BUT,...Jesus Christ's Commission was one of Love!
He did not come to condemn the world, but to save it.

We are told that God is LOVE. (Please don't respond and state that God is justice etc also, I know that, but God's Justice and every other aspect of God CANNOT come into conflict with any other aspect of his being). Thanks!

If I remember correctly (And please correct me if I am wrong) but Ray states that the Lake of Fire is God, and in fact is a good thing and is in fact God's Loving Mercy for men.

I will TRY to be getting to a point here in the near future, I promise.

In light of all this,...what if Salvation is through Jesus Christ (Who is the embodiment of love), really means Salvation through LOVE? I don't mean that floppy, sappy in-genuine love, but the TRUE unconditional love of God.
Are there others, of other faiths that have reached the level of true unconditional love that God will accept? And will God do so because it is genuine, in spite of the fact that they never heard of Christ??

I ask this because of this reason. At judgment standing before God, let us assume we have seven men.
One is a Loving American Indian who prayed to the Sky Chief out of ignorance, The other is a (Hell Loving) "Christian", the other a Satanic Murderer, the other is a Loving Christian, The other is a Loving Buddhist/Taoist, the next is a pretty nice guy of no particular faith.

The Hell loving Christian will need correction in the Lake of Fire (A good thing for him and for all of us).

The Satanic Murderer will be corrected also, but his acts are Horrid, so he may or may not need more correction (This of course is up to God's wisdom and not of our concern).

The Pretty nice guy, is still off the mark. He needs a bit of correction, but once in the Lake, he almost certainly will repent quit quickly.

The Loving Christian will rule with God and is in no need of correction.

Now we come to the fun, interesting part. (I mean fun as in it is fun to think of how God will make all things right. I do find it really, really fun by the way. I am not making that up.)

The Loving Buddhist/Taoist and Loving American Indian who prayed to the Sky chief out of pure ignorance stand before God. God says to them, I AM GOD. You worshiped incorrectly. I put it to you now that you both acknowledge me, as I AM THAT I AM.
They look at each other for an instance (One shaved head, the other long black hair.) (At this point I would be shaking in my boots) and look back at God and say, Woops God! Sorry about the mix up. We really thought we were doing the correct thing both in our own time and place. YET, we now see that you are the ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD.

My Point is this. It matters not if they have to go into the Lake of Fire or not, Since it is A GOOD THING.
What matters and what I am trying to point out is that it may not take much time at all (Or maybe nothing but A small WORD from God) for most of the people who have TRUE love in their hearts to get right with God. Get the correct mindset in them and kill off the OLD MAN. 

I do not mean to be offensive to anyone. I am part Iroquois myself, and I respect Buddhism and Taoism as a Philosophy!
I do not mean to make light of the Judgment seat of God BY ANY MEANS!  So please don't assume this, as it would make me extremely sad!! 

The query I send out has much more to do with duration of time than whether or not they will go to the lake at all.

We may be able to put it in a way such as this. Some may need JUST A TOE TOUCHING, while others may need a long duration in the Lake of God's Love.

I am sorry if anyone thinks this is a waste of time to think about. And if it is to you, then I apologize for the inconvenience. BUT these are my thoughts that I PONDER and I am a child of the living God and I would hope you would consider my thoughts to be, at the very least worth considering.

Thank you so much and God bless all of you.
With all my love. 
Dante

[Beloved]

This is an interesting thought I can understand your concern but about these people but I think your premise may be oversimplified..  ?Which God?

With telecommunication and literacy I do not know how many today could not have heard the gospel (even if it was the ugly one about hell). If they heard that they proably rejected it because of thier own traditions and because God did not open their eyes. God is responsible for all.

I also think that all men even those in the past that never were exposed still have a major problem..... SELF...the one on the throne .......During ones lifetime there would be numerouse occasions for this to show itself....every baby is Self centered.   

Look at these buddist right now some are resorting to brute physical albeit it 'may be' defensive but what about in their mental thoughts. Remember Jesus held us to a higher standard. Of most religions Buddism on the surface has some correct ideas but they are achieved by self. They are work based.

Jesus Christ came to earth as a sacrafice and example to show mankind that death to self is the way to life. We cannot do this on our own. Our flesh is a trap.

The elect are suppose to go through this fire wile they live now.....Ask yourself what kind of fire your are going through now....many are having difficult times...not always physical....I believe the LOF will be the perfect learning experience for each person....

Perhaps that is what the elect will do ......guide them through this experience so they ....learn righteousness. The elect will take off their linen and put on the wool and enter the physical realm when the people of the 2nd ressurection will dwell.

Like Paul who saw himself as the chief sinner....the elect will know the mercy of God because none of them were mighty renown rich etc....they were the bottom of the barrel in a way. Like Jesus they know the flesh and the struggles that need to be overcomed....

I do not look on the Lake of Fire as a bad thing but more as a rectifier....a do-over....a perfecter. It was God who decided on which team you played the first time...now he is bringing everyone back into the spiritual family after this extremely limiting flesh experience.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3002.0.html

There will be no I us or them there will only be the Father. All in All


Beloved

[hillsbororiver]

 This is a question that has been asked and meditated on for centuries, "does one really have to believe in Christ to be saved? How about all the sincere and good people of other faiths?" On it's surface these are very valid questions but I ask good compared to who, other men? Is that good enough for God our Father?

Luke 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

One thing we can take comfort in is that no matter what anyone believes all will eventually be saved but they will believe and worship Christ when that day comes, whether in this age or the next.

I agree with Beloved when she stated that the LOF is a time of correction and adjustment and not a finite version of an everlasting hellfire of pure torture, sure some will receive more chastisement than others but the LOF is not going to be a "one size fits all" experience.

Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.


John Chapter 6

35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48I am that bread of life.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[Dante]

I could not agree with you more Beloved as to God having planned the whole thing. I assure you I believe this fact.

But unless I am mistaken, Ray does state there Are, and Were, and Will be people who have never heard of God. And I believe this to be true also.

But under Buddhist/Taoist  Philosophy (Philosophy, not religion) the goal is to rid oneself OF SELF, and to fill oneself with Love and Peace. To care for others above one's self. Be advised that I am NOT stating that other religions are valid, but that there MAY be validity in the philosophy of men, that MAY actually be from God.

It doesn't come down to Religion (Since religion is only a man made tool, to TRY to please God) What matters is the person and Whether or not THEY have received the love of God (Or better said, that God has chosen them to give the very nature and love of God).

And what is at the ROOT of my query is whether LOVE is what Jesus IS. And is THIS the thing of which ONE should aspire to obtain.

It is said: Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. (John 15:13)

Now, if this passage is true, which it is, does this mean that if a Heathen (A person not of Christian belief) who lays down his life for another, has this GREAT love and is in fact OF GOD? Since it would be very difficult (Yet not impossible) to commit an act such as giving up one's life for selfish reasons. And if one was not "of self", would that not mean that they were of someone else,...... perhaps being truly of God.


As Hillsbororiver has stated  the answer to my question really does not matter, for ALL MEN WILL BE SAVED (Thank God!). And it is most important to understand this fact. The Lake of Fire is a GOOD THING, and in my opinion should not be feared or looked at in a negative light. Since all that God does is True and proper.

If we were to fear the Lake for ourselves or our loved ones, it would go against what Paul said when he stated that "We should fear nothing". It also would go against the premise that "Perfect Love Casts Out All Fear".

Hillsbororiver, you state: On it's surface these are very valid questions but I ask good compared to who, other men? Is that good enough for God our Father?

Dante says:
I am with you all the way on this. God's standard is of the highest. And I am not debating this.

I am merely asking if God imputes Perfect love to a human, who happen to never have heard of Jesus. And in doing so, are they True Christians also??


We as Christians may have knowledge of God and Christ, but if we DO NOT HAVE LOVE, we are nothing. (I am not trying to insinuate that Christians do not have perfect love imparted to them. For there are those that obviously do!)

But, I most humbly was wondering if anyone had an opinion by using the word of God that there MAY be people who are Christians who have no knowledge of Christ.

If this is so, this MAY be a mark of true Christianity. Since we know, that Knowledge, wisdom, performing miracles and speaking in tongues, among other things, are NOT a proof of being Saved. 

Matthew 7:18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.

So, if a man appears outwardly a good tree by producing good fruit, this MAY be an indicator of his status with God almighty. There are of course people who appear to do good things, yet in the darkness, they do evil.
BUT,..if you seek to truly know a man, and find him without major blemish, and his love shines out for all to see AND LOVE is foremost in his mind, is it possible that this is THE sign that God was speaking of here.

I ask these questions in the most humble fashion and put it to my elders in Christ.

Dante

[Gregor]

Greetings Dante,

Please read Romans ch.2. Here is a sample:

11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Hope that helps!
Blessings,
G.

[Robin]

Romans 7
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.


I don't have the words to explain what I'm thinking, but there are laws at work and it isn't as simple as knowing that God is the one true God and choosing him. There is a verse somewhere that says even Satan acknowledges that. I can't find the verse. We are saved through Christ. What does that mean?

Matthew 3:11
"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

If it only took a small word from God wouldn't we all have been perfected a long time ago. I know I'm still experiencing that fire and have been for many years. Jesus is the Word of God. I've always thought that the Word is the fire. If we go through Christ, we go through the fire.

Revelation 19:
The Rider on the White Horse
11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.


There have been a couple of times when I've received truth that was too big for me to handle. I got a better understanding of the Israelites begging God not to speak to them at the foot of the mountain when they heard his voice. Who was that God of the old testament?

Deuteronomy 4:
10 Remember the day you stood before the LORD your God at Horeb, when he said to me, "Assemble the people before me to hear my words so that they may learn to revere me as long as they live in the land and may teach them to their children." 11 You came near and stood at the foot of the mountain while it blazed with fire to the very heavens, with black clouds and deep darkness. 12 Then the LORD spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice.

[Beloved]

Sorry for the misunderstanding but here is a small clarification.

I did not mean to insinuate that people "know" God..even with todays telecommunication.

Most of todays Christians do not know Jesus Christ the way Jesus wants them to know him.  They certainly do not understand the Father since they baspheme him with their hateful doctrines.

You yourself pointed that the majority of societies recognize some type of supreme being. Hence they know Christianity as "other" . The muslims, taoist, hindu and buddist and many others know of christianity. Some have been aprroached and rejected and others have not even learned anything except that fact.

Like I tried to state, the knowledge of the Jesus or God is not relevant to those in the past present or future or those few who have been so isolated they never 'heard or saw' anything except their own small world.

Also Dante the point about 'God having planned the whole thing'
the natural man is indignant and resentful & feels cheated & manipulated
the spiritual just melt into it and they are relaxed & totally comforted by the fact.

beloved

[Kat]

Hi Dante,

I am merely asking if God imputes Perfect love to a human, who happen to never have heard of Jesus. And in doing so, are they True Christians also??

Simply put to be considered a 'Christian,' is to know Christ and believe what He taught.

Christian
CHRISTIAN, n.

1. A believer in the religion of Christ.

2. A professor of his belief in the religion of Christ.

3. A real disciple of Christ; one who believes in the truth of the Christian religion, and studies to follow the example, and obey the precepts, of Christ; a believer in Christ who is characterized by real piety.
(Webster's on E-Sword)

Christ is the only way which anyone can receive salvation.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3120.0.html ----

Act 4:12  Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

But in Acts 4:12 The words  Must be saved are used.  Why do all the other verses use shall be saved but in Acts 4:12  the bible reads Must be saved?    
Thanks Michael  

Dear Michael:
   The word "must" (Greek means 'necessary, behooves, binding') shows that salvation can not come by or through any other ways or means, than the NAME of Jesus Christ, ONLY.
   Hence, the emphasis upon that Name. Jews, for example,  cannot be saved  in the Name of "God" aside from the Name of Jesus as John Hagee teaches.  They MUST acknowledge the "Name" of Jesus Christ.
   God be with you,
   Ray
----------------------------------------------------------

A Christian would be those we considered the 'Called.'  Those who have been called to Christ, so to speak.  They are mostly made up of the church world (though you can know of Christ without going to church), they come to know of Christ, but it is a physical knowledge only.  
Now the 'Chosen' are those from the called, that God has chosen to work with to a much greater degree.  The Chosen have their eyes opened to spiritual understanding.  These are those being judged now, who are being made into the image of Christ now.  The Chosen are those who will remain faithful to the end and be in the first/former resurrection.  They will reign and rule with Christ, they will be the Lake of fire along with Christ.

The Lake of Fire is a GOOD THING, and in my opinion should not be feared or looked at in a negative light.

Indeed it is a good thing, it is the means by which the vast majority of humanity will learn who Christ is and learn how to obey Him and evenually recieve salvation.

http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html ---------------------------

GOD'S MINISTERS ARE FLAMES OF FIRE

I showed you earlier that Jesus Christ is not only IN the lake of fire, He IS THE LAKE OF FIRE. He is the Divinity in this spiritual fire.

Ponder this:

Like Christ, we too are raised with a "SPIRITUAL body" (I Cor. 15:44).

We are in fact called, "the BODY of Christ" (Eph. 1:23).

We will literally "be LIKE Him [Christ]" (I John 3:2).

God will make us into "ministers [of] FLAMING FIRE" (Psalm 104:4).

We too then will be like our God, "a CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).

God promises us that, "...the saints shall JUDGE THE WORLD..." and "we shall JUDGE ANGELS" (I Cor. 6:2-3)!

God tells us WHERE this judgment will take place:

"...they were judged every man according to their works," and "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into THE LAKE OF FIRE" (Rev. 20:13 & 15).

Therefore, we, the Saints, the Body of Christ, the consuming fire ministers of God, the saviours of Mt. Zion, the manifested Sons and Daughters of God, along with our Head, Jesus Christ, also ARE THE LAKE OF FIRE!
--------------------------------------------------------------

Hope this helps  

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Stevernator]

Hi Dante and everyone,

All of the responders made great points and I'd like to add a bit to the discussion.

What are the chances that when Jesus states that the only way to the Father is through me. He means that the only way to God is through what Jesus Christ represents.

I want to caution you because like others said, no one is good.
Jesus said through me and I do not believe that there it is possible to reach God  and have the necessary righteousness without going through Christ.
We can be very good compared to others but scripture says righteousness is imputed through faith and the just shall live by faith.

Rom 3:10 according as it is written, that "Not one is just- not even one."

Rom 4:4 Now to the worker, the wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as a debt."
Rom 4:5 Yet to him who is not working, yet is believing on Him Who is justifying the irreverent, his faith is reckoned for righteousness."

Rom 6:23 For the ration of Sin is death, yet the gracious gift of God is life eonian, in Christ Jesus, our Lord."

John the Baptist was the most righteous human being alive other than Jesus but he was still less than those in the kingdom of heaven so he too needed to go through Christ to be saved.

But, I most humbly was wondering if anyone had an opinion by using the word of God that there MAY be people who are Christians who have no knowledge of Christ

I suppose the main question you are asking is: is it possible for someone who has never heard and never will hear of Jesus while still alive on Earth to be a called and chosen elect?

Does God call and choose people who don't have or never will hear about Jesus on Earth?

Gal 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you get the spirit by works of law or by hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 So foolish are you? Undertaking in spirit, are you now being completed in flesh?

Hmm I do not know but it seems like hearing of faith is important.
(Off topic - the way spirit is used here seems to support Ray's teaching against the trinity.)

We may be able to put it in a way such as this. Some may need JUST A TOE TOUCHING, while others may need a long duration in the Lake of God's Love

I really do agree with you on this though. Quite contrary to some mainstram teaching. 

Peace,
Steve

[Dante]

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.,........No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.


2:4 John said, "He who says 'I know him' but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him."  in 2:9 John says, "He who says he is in the light and hates his brother is in the darkness still. He who loves his brother abides in the light."

(And what are the commandments? To Love God and our brethren (All People). Because in Loving our brethren , we have shown Love to our God. It MAY not even be necessary to know who God is, since in the below Judgment passages, it SEEMS as though, the BLESSED do not even realize that they have fulfilled the laws of God ).


The Judgment
31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' 37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'

( Notice at the judgment, It seems as if the "blessed" didn't have any idea of what it was that they were doing, YET in doing so, they were fulfilling the commandments of God.)


40 "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' 44 "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' 45 "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


3:14, "We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we LOVE the brethren."


All I am saying is that I am not ready to push "Others" into the corrective lake of fire the ones who do not know God's name, or who have a false idea of GOD'S NAME. If THESE PEOPLE by LIVING A LIFE OF LOVE (That the Father has given them) They are doing the works and fulfilling the commandments of God, AND they might not even be aware of the fact that they are doing the very thing that we should be doing.

Since we know that Casting out demons and  performing miracles and even signs of prophesy are NOT true signs of being saved, or Blessed or lambs or Sons of God, or whatever label you wish to put on it.

For Abraham was justified by acts, he has something to boast in, but not toward God. For what is the scripture saying? Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reconed to him for righteousness."

Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Because he carried out the VALUES of God. That MAY be the name under which we are to be saved. And if it is not just a matter of Calling Jesus LORD, then I MUST assume that LOVE would be the name under which to be justified under.

We know that ANYONE who is doing the acts of the Father is of the Father. Which one of us being Christians would LABEL a man who feeds the poor, clothes the homeless, acts in ALL WAYS as JESUS Does, NOT OF GOD?? Even if they have a misunderstood concept of what the NAME of God is.

It is obvious that calling Jesus Lord, Lord, does not mean that we are saved. And by understanding the concept of who and what Christ is, is not a determining factor of Being saved from the correctional Lake of Fire, since EVEN Satan himself MUST know who and what Jesus is. YET,...does Satan carry out the acts of the Father? No,..Satan acts as an adversary to the Father. Does knowing a name mean so much to God??

Or is the HEART of TRUE CHRISTIANITY the doing the LOVE that the Father has ordained to the human individual. I think that we must be cautious not to call something (Or in this case, someone) who is of God , ..."NOT of God". Don't you think?

Love is from God, this is clear. This agapao (ag-ap-ah'-o)  or Dutiful LOVE is from God. And the Word of God states that ANYONE, who has this dutiful Love as in 1John 4:7, is from God. YET, it does not state ANY other stipulation as to "Being of God".


So to make a quick summery, There WILL be people who profess to know Jesus Christ.
And on that day of Judgment SOME of those people who professed Christ as Lord will be denied, by Christ himself.
Is it NOT POSSIBLE, that there will be those who have NEVER called Christ LORD, YET,..in carrying out the WILL of the Father, are in the Father and are of the Blessed ONES?

Is it not possible that since some professing Christians will get blindsided by the FACT that they were never TRULY Christians at all. That there are people who NEVER professed to BE Christians, YET acted on the Father's Wishes and Were IN FACT TRUE CHRISTIANS?


Please don't get me wrong. I do NOT MEAN that it is a WORKS Program, But that we wish in our HEARTS, and that we agree with the Law of God and that we DESIRE TO DO GOOD (To LOVE),...and that is our Prerequisite for Salvation. And NOT the exact knowledge of EVERY facet of the Living God. We MAY not even have to know his name, but to know HIS ESSENCE, is what is of EXTREME VALUE! I cannot even explain all I feel on this subject, But I FEEL that I MAY be correct. I feel it in my Heart.


I put it to you to think on. And that is all I expect.
Thank you. God's Love be with you all.
Humbly, in God's service.
(The wise man looks to the ground as he walks).

Dante

[Dante]

I will try to make this short.
But, by now, you know me. I am very long winded!
LOL!

If the very essence of God is Love, which I believe him to be.'
Then I also must believe that the very essence of Satan is FEAR.

Perfect Love casts out all Fear.

You may say that Satan is a lot of things. Like Satan is deception, and this would be true.
But, doesn't deception only have a purpose and is not purposeful to ITSELF?

If Satan can confuse us into believing that God will throw most of the world's population into a PAGAN HELL, then doesn't that ONLY CREATE FEAR??

Isn't Fear the one thing that corrupts our PEACE, Joy and LOVE?

Well, I surprise myself, that was short.
Hehehe.

Dante

[hillsbororiver]

Please don't get me wrong. I do NOT MEAN that it is a WORKS Program, But that we wish in our HEARTS, and that we agree with the Law of God and that we DESIRE TO DO GOOD (To LOVE),...and that is our Prerequisite for Salvation. And NOT the exact knowledge of EVERY facet of the Living God. We MAY not even have to know his name, but to know HIS ESSENCE, is what is of EXTREME VALUE! I cannot even explain all I feel on this subject, But I FEEL that I MAY be correct. I feel it in my Heart.

Hi Dante,

Please do not take offense with my reply but I do feel it is necessary to address the point made above. My question to you is what difference does this issue make in regard to your and my salvation how the Lord might deal with others? Remember when Peter questioned what was to become of John?

Joh 21:21  Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?

Joh 21:22  Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

Perhaps the Lord will deal with some in a way we are not aware of or can perceive at this time but all through scripture it is made very clear that once He draws us we are to follow Him, His Word, His commandments and definitely not our own instincts and heart.

Pro 16:25  There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Jer 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

You stated above that  "I do NOT MEAN that it is a WORKS Program" without faith in Christ everything is a works program.

Gal 2:16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Act 4:12  Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

If people can rely on their own goodness driven by their own hearts then the above verses do not make any sense, or they are lies.

Php 1:29  For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

We are not only to believe on His name, but we must suffer for His sake. How does one do that with no knowledge of Him, how is someone separated from family and friends due to belief in Christ when they don't believe in Christ? How is one persecuted for their faith in Christ when they do not have faith in Christ?

Please take this in the spirit it is given, once we attempt to take the knowledge of Christ out of the equation I firmly believe that the result will be as Peter taking his eyes off of Jesus when he attempted to walk on water.

2Co 10:5  Casting down imaginations and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:

Php 3:8  Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

2Pe 3:18  But grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever. Amen.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[Dante]

I am not saying that it is by works.
The exact opposite is what I am stating.

In the same way that you think the name Jesus saves,...that is to say the FAITH in Jesus saves,...

,....I am asserting that LOVE is Jesus' name.

Sorry if you misunderstood me, I am not saying that there is anything a man can do to save himself.

BUT, that the man that is imputed (BY GOD) righteousness, is being inputed LOVE.
Because God himself IS LOVE.
GOD=LOVE
JESUS=LOVE

God gives a man LOVE IE,....Jesus, the Holy Spirit etc.

YET,...it may appear to an observer that the man is a heathen, because he knows NOT OF GOD.
But on the inside he is a Christian, by virtue of GOD.

This may be WHY he has such LOVE in him.


Like say Ghandi (Or however you spell his name). He seemed FULL OF LOVE. How do we know he was not of God??
He surly LOVED his fellow man. If this LOVE was not of him and not of Satan, since a house divided by itself cannot stand, then it COULD be FROM GOD.

How much technical knowledge of God does ONE NEED to be a Christian??

Maybe it is JUST THE LOVE that we need, since God himself said that ANYONE WHO LOVES HIS BROTHER, is of GOD.

Hope this helps you understand my thoughts.

Peace and Love.

Dante

[Dante]

Joe you say: We are not only to believe on His name, but we must suffer for His sake. How does one do that with no knowledge of Him, how is someone separated from family and friends due to belief in Christ when they don't believe in Christ? How is one persecuted for their faith in Christ when they do not have faith in Christ?

Please take this in the spirit it is given, once we attempt to take the knowledge of Christ out of the equation I firmly believe that the result will be as Peter taking his eyes off of Jesus when he attempted to walk on water.


Dante says: Maybe we suffer for LOVE. Which is the exact representation of GOD and Jesus.
If we leave our families to suffer for the sake of the LOVE OF MANKIND. Is that and was that not Jesus' quest also??

To suffer for ALL MANKIND out of LOVE?

The bottom line is this.
How much working knowledge does a man have to have to be considered a Christian??
The name of Christ? All his workings? The Whole of the Word of God?
How much did the thief on the cross know?? Yet, he was saved was he not?
This is the Enigma that I ask myself.

Dante

PS. Don't worry about hurting my feelings, I think you are a nice guy with a heart for God. I don't think you are going to say anything to be mean.

[hillsbororiver]

Hi again Dante,

Joh 15:19  If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Peace,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

Dante,

As I stated before God may be dealing with others on another level that we might not be aware of or has yet to be revealed to us, loving mankind is a noble thing indeed but loving God comes first.

Look even John the Baptist is not going to be in the first resurrection because he was not under the promise of the New Covenant, but I would be reasonably certain his experience at the White Throne Judgment will not be extremely chastising. There will be many who God has used for good who were also not of the elect, you can go through the Old Testament for examples of this, "they obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise." (Heb 11:39).

Dante, perhaps the Lord is preparing you to be a witness of Christ (in the next age) to those who died without a knowledge of Him!

His Peace to you Brother,

Joe

P.S. Thanks for the kind words.

[Kat]

Hi Dante,

BUT, that the man that is imputed (BY GOD) righteousness, is being inputed LOVE.
Because God himself IS LOVE.

Maybe it is JUST THE LOVE that we need, since God himself said that ANYONE WHO LOVES HIS BROTHER, is of GOD.

There are quite a few example of people that never knew Jesus Christ and were considered righteous by God.  These people were the epitome of love in what they were willing to do.

Heb 11:4  By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts:

Heb 11:5  By faith Enoch was translated... he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Heb 11:6  But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.

And who is the God of the Old Testament?  Jesus Christ!

Heb 11:7  By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Heb 11:8  By faith Abraham...obeyed; and he went out...

Heb 11:13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises...

Heb 11:17  By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac:

Heb 11:20  By faith Isaac...

Heb 11:21  By faith Jacob...

Heb 11:22  By faith Joseph...

Heb 11:23  By faith Moses...

Heb 11:31  By faith the harlot Rahab...

Heb 11:32  And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gideon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthah; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

Heb 11:39  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

All these people and even John the Baptist, that Jesus Christ said there was none greater than he, will not be in the kingdom, he too will be in the Lake of fire.

Mat 11:11  "Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

p.s. Joe, I see this is what you were referring to in your last post, well I got all the Scripture for you 

[Dante]

Ok,......I got ya now. I hope,....LOL!

I must have missed that in Ray's Teaching.

So,..unless I am mistaken, you are telling me that John the Baptist will not be in the first resurrection because it states here:


Mat 11:11  "Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

BUT, I don't know that this really states that John will not be in the first resurrection. I think that it merely points out that we have the potential (Or maybe better stated WILL BE) Greater in the Kingdom of Heaven since we are under a different age and given different promises from God.


BUT, what you are stating (Unless I am really off base) is that THESE people had GREAT LOVE, Yet will NOT have our position in the Kingdom. And a lesser one of US, with LESSER LOVE, WILL have a greater position in the kingdom, since we were born in a different time period and just happen to have that opportunity.

Did I totally mess up your idea??
Let me know, cause I am really getting stoked by talking about this kind of thing.
And thanks you guys for the help.
You don't know how much I appreciate it!!

Love always.

Dante

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Dante,

What makes the "least in the Kingdom greater than John" is the very fact he will not be in it until after the White Throne Judgment, at that time the elect will be perfect in spirit, with an incorruptable mind and an immortal body, just like Christ! And they will be the ones doing the judging!

John can be considered last in the line of the OT/Old Covenant prophets as He did not live to see the promises fulfilled in Christ's sacrifice, resurrection and the former rain at Pentecost. He very well may have been the greatest of the OT prophets (I do not know this as fact) but anyone from the Old Covenant is less than those who have been chosen (by God) to be in the first resurrection, the key word is chosen because no one can boast that they did anything to deserve it!

From LOF Part 12;

THE WORLD IS GROANING FOR IT KNOWS NOT WHAT
"For the earnest expectation of the creation waits FOR THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD" (Rom. 8:19).

Notice this verse in a few other translations:

"For the EAGER outlook of creation ARDENTLY awaits the revealing of the Sons of God" (The Emphasized New Testament).

"For the LONGING of the creation LOOKS EAGERLY for the time when [the glory of] the sons of God shall be revealed" (The Epistles of Paul by Conybeare).

"All creation is YEARNING, LONGING to see the manifestation of the sons of God" (The New Testament in Modern Speech).

Or the creation waits with EAGER LONGING for the revealing of the sons of God" (The Revised Standard Version).

"THE WHOLE WORLD IS ON TIPTOE to see the wonderful sight of the sons of God coming into their own" (Phillips' Translation).

To be sure, it is GOD Who is telling us that the whole creation is groaning in earnest expectation. It is groaning for it knows not what, but GOD KNOWS! In other words, God is telling US, who are growing in spiritual truths, what it is that the whole world and indeed the whole creation is in desperate need of—the saving power of the Sons of God. We ARE the BODY OF CHRIST! What Christ does, he DOES THROUGH US!

WHY? Why are they waiting for the manifestation of the Sons of God? Of what value will these Sons be to them? We can see why the Sons themselves would want to be manifested as such with God their Father and Elder Brother Jesus Christ, but why would all the wicked humanity of the entire "CREATION" be "waiting in EARNEST expectation?" What in the world is taking place here?

The church teaches that after all the Sons and Daughters of God are in their glory, the rest of the world will be tortured eternally by real fire in a terrorist hellhole of hopeless doom (never mind the fact that God says "there will be NO MORE DOOM") (Rev. 22:3, Concordant Literal New Testament).

Seriously, when all the Sons and Daughters of God are manifested IN THEIR GLORY, why would the ENTIRE CREATION be awaiting this event with almost uncontrollable bated breath, excitement, and anticipation? WHY? What is it that the churches have never told you? What is God going to do with all these glorified Sons and Daughters?

You have heard enough lies, now let's read God's Truth. Here is one of the most profound and all-encompassing Scriptures in the entirety of the Bible:

"For the earnest expectation of the creature [creation] waits for THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD. For the creature [creation] was MADE subject to VANITY ['...surely, EVERY MAN IS VANITY'-- Psalm 39:11], NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [GOD] Who has subjected the same in HOPE. Because the creature [creation] itself also shall be DELIVERED from the bondage of corruption [corruption includes DEATH] into THE GLORIOUS LIBERTY OF THE CHILDREN OF GOD. For we know that THE WHOLE CREATION GROANS AND TRAVAILS IN PAIN together until now" (Rom. 8:19-22).

WOW! Let me point out a few marvelous things in this verse. Notice the chronological order of things in this Scripture and see how it contradicts the terrible teaching of orthodox doctrine:

First the Sons of God are manifested or shown to be what they really are—SPIRITUAL SONS OF GOD (and DAUGHTERS—II Cor. 6:18)! No longer flesh and blood. No longer subject to the pulls of a carnal mind, but True Sons in the very IMAGE OF GOD and His Son, Jesus Christ.

But what happens next? What happens to all the rest of humanity who are not sons and daughters and are not saved? What will happen to them? Just why, pray tell, are they eagerly awaiting the manifestation of these Sons and Daughters? Of what value is the salvation and manifestation of the few chosen saints to those left behind who are not saved?

The Church teaches the world that the rest of humanity will be tortured for all eternity in the lake of fire. Is that true? Is that the purpose of the lake of fire is?

Next we read what the condition of the rest of humanity is, how they got that way, and what is the solution to the problem.

"For the creature [creation] was made subject to VANITY, not willingly, but by reason of Him who has subjected the same in hope" (Rom. 8:20).

God MADE man subject to vanity. God did not ask man's permission to do this. God did it for His own wise purpose. But God is not a fiend that takes pleasure in the failures of weak humanity. God did not make man in a condition of vanity so that most of humanity would fail of the ideal, and God would then torture most of his creation eternally, when it was He Who created them weak and subjected them to every form of vanity in the first place. God created the whole creation subject to vanity. It is, therefore, God's responsibility to get man out of this mess.

God supernaturally made a way for the "manifested Sons of God" to conquer the flesh and the carnal mind and be formed into the very image of God with the very mind of Christ! They will be no longer subject to vanity when they are manifested. They will be no longer subject to "the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION." They will be FREE!

And it is they who will then FREE the rest of humanity from their bondage! What was the purpose for this subjection to vanity? So that they will eternally fail and God would eternally torture them for their failure? No! Let's read it:

God has, "subjected the same IN HOPE" (Verse 20). Wait a minute, am I saying that all of humanity, who fail to be in the first resurrection and become the manifest Sons and Daughters of God, will nonetheless still have "hope?" Is there really hope for all the lost and unsaved? How can this be? Aren't they going to be subjected to the "lake of fire?" Yes, but there is "hope" in the lake of fire. In fact, the lake of fire is their ONLY HOPE! They will not be eternally tortured just because they did not attain to the first resurrection, but will rather be "DELIVERED!" Let's read it:

http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html

His Peace to you,

Joe

[Kat]

Hi Dante,

I found a couple of emails that touch on this.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4240.0.html ----------

Look at the "destiny" of the Patriots and Fathers of the Old Testament. Did they "die and go to heaven," as it so foolishly taught by Christendom?  NO. Not even Enoch and Elijah. They ALL DIED, and not one of them "received a promise that was given them by God."  Let's read it:

        "These [those mentioned above: Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah--and those that follow later in this chapter]...These ALL DIED in faith, NOT having received the promises...." (Heb. 11:13).  Hebrews was written many many centuries AFTER all of these godly men died, and according to the author of Hebrews, they did not and had not YET received the promises.  Imagine that:  Dead for centuries and have NOT received their promises.  But, they will, in the yet future, after the resurrection of the dead to judgment (Verses 39-40).  The lake of fire is judgment; it is not ETERNAL TORTURE. And the Judgments of God bring godly righteousness: "When THY JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of THE WORLD WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isaiah 26:9).  What good is it if we do not believe ALL the Scriptures.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2385.0.html -----

Dear Ricardo:
    No, you aren't silly.  Actually, your are correct:  John the Baptist will not be in the Kingdom before us. And that goes for all the patriarchs of old. Heb. 11 proves that none of them received the promises to them and furthermore, it proves that they will come into the Kingdom only by and through US (See Verses 39-40).
    God be with you,
    Ray