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Author Topic: The Thief With Christ in Paradise  (Read 3483 times)

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isukusa

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The Thief With Christ in Paradise
« on: March 27, 2008, 09:31:33 PM »

All:
I've read Rays' work on the grave and eternal punishment but I'm still having a problem with Lk. 23:43 where Jesus says to the thief, "...today thou shalt be with me in paradise." If after we die we are dead and in the grave awaiting the resurrection how can the thief be with Christ in paradise that day? Can anyone help me with this?

David
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Sorin

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Re: The Thief With Christ in Paradise
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2008, 09:41:16 PM »

Sure thing,

Jesus wasn't telling the thief that he would be with him in paradise on that very day. Even Jesus wasn't in paradise, he was dead. The dead can not be in paradise, and even if they were they wouldn't know it--they're dead.

What Jesus said to him was more along the lines of; I'm a telling you today, you will be with me in paradise {someday}.

But of course our faithful Christian Scholars had to mess that translation up as well, and put the comma in the wrong place.
Hence the confusion which leads to contradictions.

-Sorin
« Last Edit: March 27, 2008, 09:43:37 PM by Sorin »
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David

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Re: The Thief With Christ in Paradise
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2008, 09:51:01 PM »

Well said Sorin.......I emailed Ray about this very same question last year, and he cleared it up for me. Just the moving of the commer makes all the difference to that statement. What most in the Church fail to see is, if Luke 23:43 were a correct translation, it contradicts John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”

 Be blessed
David
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jerreye

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Re: The Thief With Christ in Paradise
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2008, 10:05:42 PM »

Quote
“Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”

Yes, however, many in the church teach that Paradise isn't where the Father dwells, but where Abraham and all the other "faithful Israelites" were before the resurrection of Christ...aka, "Abraham's Bosom". This is what Kenneth Copeland and others teach. This is what my father taught me, as he was Kenneth Copland's right hand man during the 80's and early 90's...needless to say, I was a brainwashed child!

It's amazing what they will say, just to "cling" (pun intended) on to their false doctrines!

Jeremy
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Dante

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Re: The Thief With Christ in Paradise
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2008, 10:21:29 AM »

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”

I E-Mailed Ray about John 20:17 to ask him why the heck Jesus didn't want anyone touching him.
He cleared that one up for me too.
Translations can mess up God's Word badly.  :(
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Akira329

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Re: The Thief With Christ in Paradise
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2008, 01:03:36 PM »

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”

I E-Mailed Ray about John 20:17 to ask him why the heck Jesus didn't want anyone touching him.
He cleared that one up for me too.
Translations can mess up God's Word badly.  :(


So, why did Jesus not want anyone to touch him???
Does have anything to do with emotional attachment???
Antaiwan
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"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
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"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
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Kat

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Re: The Thief With Christ in Paradise
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2008, 01:26:40 PM »


Hi Antaiwan,

Here is an email where Ray answer this question.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5343.0.html -------

It isn't that Jesus didn't want them to "touch" Him, for they DID "touch" him:  "And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail.  And they came and HELD HIM BY THE FEET, and worshiped Him."  (Matt. 28:9)

This is the very same even that took place in John 20:17, where Jesus said: "Touch me not..."  The word touch means to "Cling."  Jesus didn't want them to KEEP HOLDING HIM, as they did not want to let him go. Not that they couldn't give him a little touch on the arm or something.

God be with you,

Ray

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Jam 4:14 " whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. What is your life? For ye are a vapor, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away."

Akira329

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Re: The Thief With Christ in Paradise
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2008, 09:04:34 AM »

Thank you Kat!! ;D :D
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"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
-Albert Einstein
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
- Jesus

phazel

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Re: The Thief With Christ in Paradise
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2008, 12:42:04 PM »

I think in some ways the example of the theif on the cross shows the manner in which all men will eventually be saved.

For one, we will all get to a point where we will have a repentant heart.  The church teaches that all this has to happen before we die in this earthly life but there is no scripture clearly stating such a thing.


Let me play devils advocate for a second and say hell is a literal place of torture,  I think once someone gets thrown in there, they will understand their mistake and cry out to Jesus.

The church teaches that for all eternity those cries would go unanswered.   For the sake of argument, I would say that Jesus would have the same compassion on someone in hell crying out to him as he did on the thief on the cross.

 
 
 
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Akira329

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Re: The Thief With Christ in Paradise
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2008, 08:55:27 PM »

Is it safe to say that good ole' common sense can rule out a torturing hell??
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"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
-Albert Einstein
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
- Jesus

Deborah-Leigh

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Re: The Thief With Christ in Paradise
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2008, 07:27:52 PM »

The dead know not anything right? Right! So when Jesus said to the REPENTANT thief that he would be with Him in Paradise today...for me it meant that after he died side by side with Christ, repentant and publically acknowledging his sinfulness, that the next thing he would experience is not resurrection to JUDGMENT but resurrection to PARADISE.

The question about the comma is all about which side you yet see things from. The one side or the other :D...

Rays insightful teaching on Death is a viable support of the dead not knowing anything! The next thing both criminals will know that died beside Christ is on both sides of that comma! ;)

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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Kat

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Re: The Thief With Christ in Paradise
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2008, 08:07:55 PM »


Hi Arcturus,

The word "paradise" in that verse is another thing to consider.  Here is an email where Ray speaks of this.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,979.0.html --------

Rotherham renders this verse:  "Verily I say unto thee this day:  With me shalt thou be in Paradise."  But as a footnote he suggests that "This day with me shalt...." as a possibility. So what's the solution?  God tells us how to solve this Verse and every other verse of Scripture:  "That no prophecy of scripture becomes self-solving" (II Pet. 1:20, Rotherham), "That no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its OWN explanation" (Concordant LNT).
We must go to other Scriptures to explain what is mean by this Scripture.
 
But is this what theology does?  No, theologians say this this verse EXPLAINS ITSELF--"That VERY DAY the thief when with Christ TO HEAVEN."  Oh really?  That is not what the REST of the Bible teaches.
 
DON'T "assume" that "paradise" means heaven. Why would you do that?  Is there any Scriptural justification for that?  NO, no there isn't.  In what way do the Scriptures liken paradis to heaven?  Most theologians assume things that AREN'T there, and then teach the absolute opposite of what things ARE in the Scriptures.  "Paradise" is a Persian word that means "park or garden."
 
There is the mention of only two primary "gardens" in Scripture: The "tree of life" (Gen. 2:9) is found in Garden of Eden (Gen. 2:9).  And what else is that Garden of Eden called?  Answer: "To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the TREE OF LIFE, which is in the midst of the PARADISE of God" (Rev. 2:7).
 
[1]  The "Garden of Eden."  Was that garden, "heaven?"  What did we find in that garden:  (1) the knowledge of EVIL, (2) rebellion and SIN, (3) a flaming SWORD, (4) the pronouncement of CURSES, and (5) the lying SERPENT (Satan--Rev. 12:9).
 
[2]  The "Garden of Gethsemane."  Was that garden "heaven?"   What did we find in that garden?  (1) The Apostles DESERTED Jesus in this garden,  (2) Judas BETRAYED Jesus in this garden, (3) an army of wicked elders, scribes and chief priest with clubs and SWORDS, (4) Jesus is carried away from this garden to be CRUCIFIED, and (5) This garden contained the TOMB in which the DEAD Jesus was placed.
 
Do any of this evils in these two paradise gardens sound like "heaven" to you?   I don't care if there are NO commas in Luke 23:43.  Commas do not make or break the Scriptures of God.  This verse does not contradict hundreds and hundreds of other Scriptures as the Church teaches it does.  That day, "today," both Jesus AND the thief, DIED AND THEY WERE DEAD
 
God be with you,
Ray

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Jam 4:14 " whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. What is your life? For ye are a vapor, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away."

Deborah-Leigh

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Re: The Thief With Christ in Paradise
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2008, 04:07:42 PM »

Yes Kat!

The word "Paradise" is very important to consider. Thank you for bringing forward how Ray observes how this word is quoted :   "To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the TREE OF LIFE, which is in the midst of the PARADISE of God" (Rev. 2:7).

I see the two thieves on either side of the cross of Christ as a foreshadow of the resurrection types being either the wicked or the just, the vessels unto honor or the vessels unto dishonour. The last thing both thieves will remember when they are resurrected is that they were side by side with Jesus Christ on their own crosses and only one of them was told about Today! This reminds me of 2 Cor 7 : 10 For godly grief and the pain God is permitted to direct, produce a repentance that leads and contributes to salvation and deliverance from evil, and IT NEVER BRINGS REGRET;  but worldly grief, the hopeless sorrow that is characteristic of the pagan world, is deadly, breeding and ending in death.

Sounds like this describes the two thieves on the cross next to Jesus. One was in God Directed godly grief and brought to repentance and the other was in worldy sorrow and grief characteristic of the pagan world. What is interesting is that they were both on a cross. One was going to die and be dead and the other was going to die and be made living. The dead are raised to judgement but the some are raised to a better resurrection.  8)

Peace to you

Arcturus :)



« Last Edit: April 02, 2008, 04:16:47 PM by Arcturus »
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