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The Thief With Christ in Paradise
Deborah-Leigh:
The dead know not anything right? Right! So when Jesus said to the REPENTANT thief that he would be with Him in Paradise today...for me it meant that after he died side by side with Christ, repentant and publically acknowledging his sinfulness, that the next thing he would experience is not resurrection to JUDGMENT but resurrection to PARADISE.
The question about the comma is all about which side you yet see things from. The one side or the other :D...
Rays insightful teaching on Death is a viable support of the dead not knowing anything! The next thing both criminals will know that died beside Christ is on both sides of that comma! ;)
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
Kat:
Hi Arcturus,
The word "paradise" in that verse is another thing to consider. Here is an email where Ray speaks of this.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,979.0.html --------
Rotherham renders this verse: "Verily I say unto thee this day: With me shalt thou be in Paradise." But as a footnote he suggests that "This day with me shalt...." as a possibility. So what's the solution? God tells us how to solve this Verse and every other verse of Scripture: "That no prophecy of scripture becomes self-solving" (II Pet. 1:20, Rotherham), "That no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its OWN explanation" (Concordant LNT).
We must go to other Scriptures to explain what is mean by this Scripture.
But is this what theology does? No, theologians say this this verse EXPLAINS ITSELF--"That VERY DAY the thief when with Christ TO HEAVEN." Oh really? That is not what the REST of the Bible teaches.
DON'T "assume" that "paradise" means heaven. Why would you do that? Is there any Scriptural justification for that? NO, no there isn't. In what way do the Scriptures liken paradis to heaven? Most theologians assume things that AREN'T there, and then teach the absolute opposite of what things ARE in the Scriptures. "Paradise" is a Persian word that means "park or garden."
There is the mention of only two primary "gardens" in Scripture: The "tree of life" (Gen. 2:9) is found in Garden of Eden (Gen. 2:9). And what else is that Garden of Eden called? Answer: "To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the TREE OF LIFE, which is in the midst of the PARADISE of God" (Rev. 2:7).
[1] The "Garden of Eden." Was that garden, "heaven?" What did we find in that garden: (1) the knowledge of EVIL, (2) rebellion and SIN, (3) a flaming SWORD, (4) the pronouncement of CURSES, and (5) the lying SERPENT (Satan--Rev. 12:9).
[2] The "Garden of Gethsemane." Was that garden "heaven?" What did we find in that garden? (1) The Apostles DESERTED Jesus in this garden, (2) Judas BETRAYED Jesus in this garden, (3) an army of wicked elders, scribes and chief priest with clubs and SWORDS, (4) Jesus is carried away from this garden to be CRUCIFIED, and (5) This garden contained the TOMB in which the DEAD Jesus was placed.
Do any of this evils in these two paradise gardens sound like "heaven" to you? I don't care if there are NO commas in Luke 23:43. Commas do not make or break the Scriptures of God. This verse does not contradict hundreds and hundreds of other Scriptures as the Church teaches it does. That day, "today," both Jesus AND the thief, DIED AND THEY WERE DEAD
God be with you,
Ray
Deborah-Leigh:
Yes Kat!
The word "Paradise" is very important to consider. Thank you for bringing forward how Ray observes how this word is quoted : "To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the TREE OF LIFE, which is in the midst of the PARADISE of God" (Rev. 2:7).
I see the two thieves on either side of the cross of Christ as a foreshadow of the resurrection types being either the wicked or the just, the vessels unto honor or the vessels unto dishonour. The last thing both thieves will remember when they are resurrected is that they were side by side with Jesus Christ on their own crosses and only one of them was told about Today! This reminds me of 2 Cor 7 : 10 For godly grief and the pain God is permitted to direct, produce a repentance that leads and contributes to salvation and deliverance from evil, and IT NEVER BRINGS REGRET; but worldly grief, the hopeless sorrow that is characteristic of the pagan world, is deadly, breeding and ending in death.
Sounds like this describes the two thieves on the cross next to Jesus. One was in God Directed godly grief and brought to repentance and the other was in worldy sorrow and grief characteristic of the pagan world. What is interesting is that they were both on a cross. One was going to die and be dead and the other was going to die and be made living. The dead are raised to judgement but the some are raised to a better resurrection. 8)
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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