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Author Topic: Who is 'Sneaky'?  (Read 2868 times)

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Sorin

  • Guest
Who is 'Sneaky'?
« on: April 03, 2008, 12:25:08 PM »

This is from the email section:


YO Ray I got to tell you you are pretty sneaky in how you teach the word, for instance you tell people there is no RAPTURE and you even say that word is not even in the ORIGANIL.,which it is not, at least you got that right! But then to top it off you go and write words and papers saying that GOD IS SOVEREIGN. ITS SEEMS FUNNY TO ME RAY THAT THE WORD SOVEREIGN IS NOT EVEN IN THE BIBLE!  SO DONT BE TEACHING DOCTRINES BASED ON WORDS THAT ARE NOT EVEN BIBLICAL OR EVEN IN THE WORD FOR THAT MATTER...WAKE UP RAY YOUR STILL SLEEPING??
 

Dear Matthew:  YOU, Matthew are the "sneaky" deceitful one, not I.  I never said in passing that the word "rapture" itself if not found in the Scripture, I DID NOT make a point out of that or use that fact as evidence that there is no rapture, now did I?  No, of course I didn't, and you know it, but you want to make it seem like I did. That, Matthew is "sneaky" and deceitful. I am not concerned with such un-biblical words as rapture, trinity, immaculate conception, etc. I am only concerned as to whether the doctrines represented by those words is in the Scriptures or not.
God be with you,
Ray

------------------------------------------------

He says the word 'Sovereign' is not in the Bible. I think he meant to say, not in the original, as in UnScriptural? Because the word 'Sovereign' most definitely is in the bible. I got about 297 results with the  word 'sovereign' in there. And NO RESULTS were found for 'Rapture'... of course. ;p

So is the word 'Sovereign' really in the original Hebrew/Greek manuscripts, or not? 

-Sorin

Edit: I meant to say, does it have the same meaning. Obviously it's not going to be in English. Heh.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2008, 12:34:03 PM by Sorin »
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kweli

  • Guest
Re: Who is 'Sneaky'?
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2008, 12:44:15 PM »

Hi Sorin

I probably wont give you a reference to that but I will tell you this much: if I would still wonder if God really is Sovereign, not just after everything that has been presented in the Scriptures about Him (as proof enough for me) but simply after understanding who I am and where I fit in His creation, then it would seem pointless to bother. Why would I pray if I think the God I'm praying to is Himself not in control? Why would I (try to) live righteously if all that He promised might not come to be since He could have something in His way???

I hope I dont appear anything except sincere about this. Faith is believing in that which I do not see. So I personally dont have to see the word sovereign in my bible to know that He is. I know what the word means and what He has done, is doing and will do, which all spell S-O-V-E-R-E-I-G-N to me. That is proof enough. Please correct me if im completely off the mark...

All Glory to Him
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Sorin

  • Guest
Re: Who is 'Sneaky'?
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2008, 12:49:44 PM »

Kweli,

I know what you're saying, but that didn't answer my question.

Peace,
Sorin
« Last Edit: April 03, 2008, 12:52:59 PM by Sorin »
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phazel

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Re: Who is 'Sneaky'?
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2008, 01:24:02 PM »


So is the word 'Sovereign' really in the original Hebrew/Greek manuscripts, or not? 

-Sorin

Edit: I meant to say, does it have the same meaning. Obviously it's not going to be in English. Heh.




From just a simple look,  Sovereign  is translated from  " my LORD"   Strongs  H136


The current definition of Lord

1. a person who has authority, control, or power over others; a master, chief, or ruler. 


The current definition of Sovereign

1. a monarch; a king, queen, or other supreme ruler. 













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David

  • Guest
Re: Who is 'Sneaky'?
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2008, 03:29:38 PM »

The word isn't in the King James or in Strong's, at least not my edition anyway.
Of the Bibles I have, the word Sovereignty appears 3 times in the NASV, the word Sovereign is in my NIV many times. Each time the word sovereignty/Sovereign appears in the NASV and NIV its translated Kingdom in the KJ. In the NIV Sovereignty its translated empire in Dan 11:4, Kingdom in Psalm 103:19 Royal Power in Isa 17:3. In my NKJ its Kingdom, in my NRSV its Kingdom.
Doing a keyword search on Biblegateway, searching 5 English Bibles, I got 357 matches for the word sovereign, most times appearing in the NIV and NLT. It would appear from a quick scan through the verses it is many times used in place of the word "God", where in the KJV it says "Lord God", such as in Gen 15:2 "And Abram said "Lord God......." In the NIV and NLT it replaces the word God with Sovereign and reads "Sovereign Lord".
To address this guys comments to Ray, its foolish to say that the word is not in "The" Bible.......well which Bible exactly is he talking about? There are many and they don't all use the same words. Is it in the original manuscripts? Technically no, because its an English word, not a Hebrew or Greek word. Can the Hebrew and Greek words be correctly translated "Sovereign" or "Sovereignty"? Well obviously some theologians and scholars think so, I am no where near qualified to answer such a question. It would appear to me that this mans vanity and pride lead him to attempt to catch Ray out with a foolish padantic point. Does the word itself appear? No if you look through the KJV. Is the concept of Gods Sovereignty in the scriptures? Absolutely. Is the word Rapture in the scriptures? No. Is the rapture concept ion the scriptures as its understood by the Church? No. Debate over.
Be blessed
David 
« Last Edit: April 03, 2008, 03:32:13 PM by David »
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Sorin

  • Guest
Re: Who is 'Sneaky'?
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2008, 03:52:41 PM »

I think that pretty much answers it. And David, I know 'Sovereign' is an English word, that's why I edited my original post to make it clearer-what I meant. Did you not see that? 

So yes, the word Sovereign itself is not in there, or a word that has the exact meaning in the original scripture- but the concept of God being Sovereign is there. And the point this guy was making was that, the concept of Rapture is in the scripture, at least the way he understands the scripture; and that that is Ray's only argument against the Rapture, that the word itself doesn't appear in there, yet he believes God is Sovereign, and that word also doesn't appear in there.

So it was a good try, but that's not the only argument Ray has against the rapture. In fact even this verse alone totally destroys the Rapture theory, because look who gets gathered first.

King James Bible
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. Matt 13:30


Rapture Theorists believe that the Wheat will be gathered first, and the Tares will be left behind; but they have to contradict Scripture to say that.

-Sorin
« Last Edit: April 03, 2008, 03:55:32 PM by Sorin »
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David

  • Guest
Re: Who is 'Sneaky'?
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2008, 05:50:44 PM »

And David, I know 'Sovereign' is an English word, that's why I edited my original post to make it clearer-what I meant. Did you not see that? 




That was a generalisation aimed at the guy who tried to be smart with Ray, not you. Notice I started that paraghraph with "To address this guys comments to Ray......"

"You godda pay attention to the words......."  ;)
Be blessed
David
« Last Edit: April 03, 2008, 05:54:26 PM by David »
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