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Author Topic: More 'Refutations' of Rays works...  (Read 6908 times)

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SteveB

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More 'Refutations' of Rays works...
« on: May 10, 2006, 02:31:02 PM »

In our continuing series here we go through a couple more 'excellent' papers.

The first is from 'Prophet'Nick...http://home.aol.com/prophetnick77/page58.html

Online Debates


Prophetnick77 vs. L. Ray Smith


This is actually one of the first debates that I have ever had via email.  I was searching the internet one day when I came across a web site called "Bible-Truths.com"  I decided to check it out and read what the man had to say, and I was disgusted.  Almost everything this guy said was in complete contradiction with the scripture although he used hundreds of scriptures to support his claims.  Me being the optomist that I was decided to write the man a letter of correction in hopes that he would see the truth and change his teaching.  How naive was I?  In any event, this is what came from it.  Notice that even those who have their own web sites, are much older, and study very long periods of time, still commit all the same errors that your average cultists do.  The man misrepresents what I have actually said and then argues the false argument that he has created for me.  Plus all his study hasn't helped his spelling either.  Mr. Smith will be blue and I will be red.  Compare everything to the Word of God and decide who agrees.  
 
 I have been searching your web site and you seem to have this hatred of correct biblical interpretation. You have written letters to Dr. Kennedy and Dr. Hagee stating that they are leading sheep astray. From as much as I can see, you are a Jehovah's Witness and their teachings are not consistent with the Bible. You have stated your problems with the King James version of the Bible so all Bible quotes that I use will be from other translations. I have read a few of the e-mails you have received as well as your response to them. You seem to be very rude when answering your e-mails. You answer with an attitude and then criticize others for not walking in love. I have also noticed that in your opinion Theologians don't have the proper understanding of the Bible. Well, I am no theologian in the classical sense but I do both know and have a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus as well as study his perfect Word. You challenge people to prove you wrong scripturally and say that you have proven your beliefs. I have chosen just a couple of points in the first part of your letter to Dr. Kennedy to comment on. When we study the Bible we lay line upon line and precept upon precept (Isaiah 28:13). We must be careful to look at the whole of scripture and to never lift a verse out of it's setting or context. This is how false doctrine and heresy is birthed. In reading this letter I want you to know that I am not trying to be right. I have nothing to gain by being right and you being wrong. I do not even care to be right because I know that God's Word is right. Any other attitude would simply be prideful. I want you to know that I will pray for you to come to the knowledge of the truth that is Jesus Christ our Lord. I only chose these points to respond to because they were quick and easily reconciled. I can however give you proper biblical teaching on the Trinity as well as the state of the soul after death. There is a literal hell of fire in which people will suffer for eternity and while you have gone to great lengths to prove otherwise, you have erred. If you would like me to give you a hand concerning what God's Word says than just respond to this e-mail. If not then I understand as it is not easy to receive correction and abandon previously held beliefs. I will start by quoting you in your letter. May God bless you!


You said,


"But the shepherds (Pastors and Clergymen) of the world teach that God will never fulfill His own will and desires. They teach that most of the sheep will be lost. And worst than lost; they will supposedly be tortured in the fires of Hell for all eternity. You CONTRADICT God and His Word when you teach these things. Read Jer. 50:6 again, it is the "shepherds" that have led the sheep astray: "My people hath been lost sheep: their SHEPHERDS have CAUSED them to go astray... " "


The context is referring to God's covenant people, The Nation of Israel. They are HIS sheep because of their covenant with HIM. He is not speaking to the idolatrous Babylonians in this context because they are not in covenant with God. In order to be considered one of God's sheep, you must first be in covenant with God. All those who have no covenant with God are considered goats and will be separated from the sheep.


You also said,


"Your theology is up-side-down, Dr. Kennedy. The shepherd (the Savior) goes after the lost sheep (the Africans or whoever). Since when is it up to the "lost sheep" to find the Shepherd?"


"And what about "the ninety and nine?" Remember: "All we like sheep have gone astray" (Isa. 53:6). Were the "ninety and nine" shrewd enough, and strong enough, and clever enough by their own instincts to avoid all the jagged rocks, and holes, and cliffs, and ditches, and wolves, and foxes, till one by one they all saved themselves until they found the shepherd? "


Once again, until you have entered into a covenant with God you are not one of His sheep. You are a goat and must be separated.


Matthew 25 (Young's Literal Translation)
32 and gathered together before him shall be all the nations, and he shall separate them from one another, as the shepherd doth separate the sheep from the goats,
33 and he shall set the sheep indeed on his right hand, and the goats on the left.
34 `Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
35 for I did hunger, and ye gave me to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and ye received me;
36 naked, and ye put around me; I was infirm, and ye looked after me; in prison I was, and ye came unto me.
37 `Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, and we nourished? or thirsting, and we gave to drink?
38 and when did we see thee a stranger, and we received? or naked, and we put around?
39 and when did we see thee infirm, or in prison, and we came unto thee?
40 `And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] to one of these my brethren -- the least -- to me ye did [it].
41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;
42 for I did hunger, and ye gave me not to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me not to drink;
43 a stranger I was, and ye did not receive me; naked, and ye put not around me; infirm, and in prison, and ye did not look after me.
44 `Then shall they answer, they also, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in prison, and we did not minister to thee?
45 `Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of these, the least, ye did [it] not to me.


The goats will always be among the sheep but never does the Bible give an account of the shepherd searching for lost goats.


In John Chapter 10 Jesus gives a discourse to the Disciples about his being their shepherd. In the context his sheep are the Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah. This is easy to see when we look at verses 24-28.


24 the Jews, therefore, came round about him, and said to him, `Till when our soul dost thou hold in suspense? if thou art the Christ, tell us freely.'
25 Jesus answered them, `I told you, and ye do not believe; the works that I do in the name of my Father, these testify concerning me;
26 but ye do not believe, for ye are not of my sheep,
27 according as I said to you: My sheep my voice do hear, and I know them, and they follow me,
28 and life age-during I give to them, and they shall not perish -- to the age, and no one shall pluck them out of my hand; (Young's Literal Translation)


Here he is talking to unbelieving Jews and tells them that they do not believe because they are not of his sheep.


In verse 16 of the same chapter Jesus explains that he has other sheep who are not of this fold. This is an obvious reference to the future Gentile believers. The condition for being a sheep is always being in covenant with the shepherd. To enter into covenant with God one must believe. Abraham believed and it was accounted to him for righteousness - Romans 4:3, Galatians 3:6, James 2:23. With the mouth confession is made unto salvation and with the heart we believe unto righteousness - Romans 10:9-10. Jesus said that those who do not believe are condemned already - John 3:18. We now have an everlasting covenant with God through the blood of Jesus Christ - Hebrews 13:20.


You seem to have a problem with Dr. Kennedy's analogy concerning people going to hell. The fact is that the Bible clearly states that all are without excuse - Romans 1:18-21. If one has never read the Bible or even heard the gospel, that does not pardon them from their sin.


You said


"My question to you is: How far, Dr. Kennedy - how FAR must you "distance" God from Africa until "His hand is too short to redeem or save" (Isa. 50:2 & 59:1), and He can no longer see or hear or feel or be "responsible" for all these poor helpless people who you think are on a daily death march into the eternal doom of a Christian Hell? According to your absurd analogy, it takes only a few miles to disable God's ability to save."


You seem to like to lift verses out of their setting. If you were to continue reading in Isaiah 59 verses 2-21 it says


2 But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.


3 For your hands are defiled with blood And your fingers with iniquity; Your lips have spoken falsehood, Your tongue mutters wickedness.


4 No one sues righteously and no one pleads honestly. They trust in confusion and speak lies; They conceive mischief and bring forth iniquity.


5 They hatch adders' eggs and weave the spider's web; He who eats of their eggs dies, And from that which is crushed a snake breaks forth.


6 Their webs will not become clothing, Nor will they cover themselves with their works; Their works are works of iniquity, And an act of violence is in their hands.


7 Their feet run to evil, And they hasten to shed innocent blood; Their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity, Devastation and destruction are in their highways.


8 They do not know the way of peace, And there is no justice in their tracks; They have made their paths crooked, Whoever treads on them does not know peace.


9 Therefore justice is far from us, And righteousness does not overtake us; We hope for light, but behold, darkness, For brightness, but we walk in gloom.


10 We grope along the wall like blind men, We grope like those who have no eyes; We stumble at midday as in the twilight, Among those who are vigorous we are like dead men.


11 All of us growl like bears, And moan sadly like doves; We hope for justice, but there is none, For salvation, but it is far from us.


12 For our transgressions are multiplied before You, And our sins testify against us; For our transgressions are with us, And we know our iniquities:


13 Transgressing and denying the LORD, And turning away from our God, Speaking oppression and revolt, Conceiving in and uttering from the heart lying words.


14 Justice is turned back, And righteousness stands far away; For truth has stumbled in the street, And uprightness cannot enter.


15 Yes, truth is lacking; And he who turns aside from evil makes himself a prey. Now the LORD saw, And it was displeasing in His sight that there was no justice.


16 And He saw that there was no man, And was astonished that there was no one to intercede; Then His own arm brought salvation to Him, And His righteousness upheld Him.


17 He put on righteousness like a breastplate, And a helmet of salvation on His head; And He put on garments of vengeance for clothing And wrapped Himself with zeal as a mantle.


18 According to their deeds, so He will repay, Wrath to His adversaries, recompense to His enemies; To the coastlands He will make recompense.


19 So they will fear the name of the LORD from the west And His glory from the rising of the sun, For He will come like a rushing stream Which the wind of the LORD drives.


20 "A Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob," declares the LORD.


21 "As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit which is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your offspring, nor from the mouth of your offspring's offspring," says the LORD, "from now and forever." (New American Standard Bible)


Sin is what has seperated man from God. God hates sin and there are seven things in particular that God hates listed in Proverbs 6:16-19. Reading this chapter we can see that the Nation of Israel was guilty of doing 4 of those things. We also see the chapter saying that their works will not cover them. This sounds like Ephesians 2:8-9, 2Timothy 1:9, and Titus 3:5 which all say that we are saved by God's grace and not our works. God is able to redeem and save all only if all would turn from their transgression. God is limited by His Word and His Word demands repentance before redemption. This is plain from scripture.


Mark 1 (Darby Translation)
4 There came John baptising in the wilderness, and preaching [the] baptism of repentance for remission of sins.


Luke 3 (Darby Translation)
3 And he came into all the district round the Jordan, preaching [the] baptism of repentance for [the] remission of sins,


Luke 17 (Darby Translation)
3 Take heed to yourselves: if thy brother should sin, rebuke him; and if he should repent, forgive him.
4 And if he should sin against thee seven times in the day, and seven times should return to thee, saying, I repent, thou shalt forgive him.


Luke 24 (Darby Translation)
47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name to all the nations beginning at Jerusalem.


Acts 2 (Darby Translation)
38 And Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptised, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for remission of sins, and ye will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


Acts 3 (Darby Translation)
19 Repent therefore and be converted, for the blotting out of your sins, so that times of refreshing may come from [the] presence of the Lord,


Acts 8 (Darby Translation)
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and supplicate the Lord, if indeed the thought of thy heart may be forgiven thee;


Acts 17 (Darby Translation)
30 God therefore, having overlooked the times of ignorance, now enjoins men that they shall all everywhere repent,


And let us read what the Prophet Daniel had to say concerning the resurrection of the dead.


Daniel 12 (Amplified)
2And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake: some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt and abhorrence.


Some will be raised to everlasting contempt and abhorrence. Is this possible if all will be saved?


Obviously this could not happen in heaven. Those who die in their sin will eventually be raised for judgement and cast into the lake of fire, where they will spend eternity.


I will offer you the easiest and quickest explanation of God and his justice that I possibly can.


? God is Holy - Lev. 11:44-45, 19:2, 20:7; 1Pet. 1:15-16


? God is Righteous - Ex. 9:27, 2Chr. 12:6, Ezr. 9:15, Jn. 17:25


? God is Just - Isaiah 45:21, Zeph. 3:5, Acts 3:14, 7:52


? God is Judge - Gen. 18:25, Jud. 11:27, Jn. 5:22, 27, Acts 10:42, 17:31, Heb. 13:23


? Sin Separates us from God - Gen. 3:23-24, Is. 59:2, Ezk. 28:16, Matt. 7:21-23


? All have Sinned - 1Ki. 8:46, 2Chr. 6:36, Ps. 130:3, Rm. 3:9, 23


? Sinners must be Judged & Punished - Ps. 1:5-6, Is. 53, Ezk. 33:13, Rm. 1:28-32, 2Pet. 2:9, Jude 15


? The Penalty for Sin is Death - Ezk. 18:4, Rm. 5:12, 6:23, Eph. 2:1, Col. 2:13


? Animal sacrifices Covered (Atoned for) sin under Old Covenant - Ex. 29:36, 30:10, Lev. 16:3-34, 17:11, Neh. 10:33


? God is a God of Love - Ps. 119:64, Jer. 31:3, 2Cor. 13:11, 1Jn. 4:7-9


? God's Love Forgives and Redeems - Ex. 34:7, Num. 14:19, Deut. 7:8, Is. 63:9


? God doesn't want any to Perish in Hell - 2Sam. 14:14, Ezk. 33:11, Acts 17:30, Titus 2:11, 2Pet. 3:9


? God Provided the Escape - Mark 16:16, John 3:16-18, Acts 2:21, Romans 10:9-13


? Christ's Sacrifice forgives Sin under the New Covenant - Jn. 1:29, Eph 1:7, Col. 1:14, Heb. 9:12-22, 10:4-12, 1Jn 1:7, 2:2, Rev. 1:5


Now let me offer this analogy. Salvation is a free gift offered to all. If I stood in a room full of 100 people with 100 $1 dollar bills and told everyone that all they had to do to receive the $1 bill was take it...and only 50 people came and took it and the other 50 were left without the gift, Does that make me unjust or unloving? The same gift was offered to all and it was my will that all come and take it. There was enough for all to have an equal share. Only 50 chose to receive what was offered to the 100. The other 50 willfully rejected the free gift. I cannot force anyone to take it. I cannot change the will of any man. I can only offer.
 
The same is true with salvation. God has offered it to all and some willfully reject it. Because God is Holy, Righteous, and Just, He must judge sin. The penalty for sin is death. It would be unjust for God to force anyone to take something they didn't want and it would be unjust for God to let some people off the hook for what his law says must be punished. This is not the nature of God. This is God's Word and God has placed His Word above even His name - Psalm 138:2. The bottom line is that we were created with a conscience for a reason. If we don't know the law that says not to murder and we murder anyway, are we any less guilty? If you didn't realize the speed limit was 50 and you were ticketed for driving 70, is the Police Officer unjust? The best scripture to explain this is


Romans 2
12 for as many as without law did sin, without law also shall perish, and as many as did sin in law, through law shall be judged,
13 for not the hearers of the law [are] righteous before God, but the doers of the law shall be declared righteous: --
14 For, when nations that have not a law, by nature may do the things of the law, these not having a law -- to themselves are a law;
15 who do shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also witnessing with them, and between one another the thoughts accusing or else defending,


I pray that this has helped you to know the truth that is God's Word. God bless you!


To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever, Amen...


Nick


Dear Nick:


I receive a thousand emails a month, and therefore it is impossible for me to answer fully emails such as yours which would require tens of pages. I will however answer one major point you make so that you can SCRIPTURALLY see for yourself how unholy and untrue your unscriptural arguments are.


You state that I quote Jer. 50:6 "out of context," meaning that this verse pertains to Israel ONLY, and not to the "GOAT" Gentiles who have no "covenant" with God. You are wrong.


There was an "old" covenant and now there is a "new" covenant. The Gentiles were not a part of the "old" covenant unless they came into Israel and became citizens of their land and religion. And that is why there is now a "new" covenant, because God wants more than just an occasional Gentile stranger to come into His kingdom:


"Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is call the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were WITHOUT Christ, being ALIENS from the commonwealth of Israel, and STRANGERS from the COVENANTS of promise, having no hope, and without God in the worldl. But N-O-W IN CHRIST JESUS ye who sometimes were far off ARE MADE NIGHT BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST...Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained inordinances; for to make in Himself of TWAIN [Israelites AND Gentiles] ONE NEW MAN, so making peace...Now therefore ye are NO MORE strangers and foreigners, but FELLOWCITICENS with the saints, AND OF THE HOUSEHOLD OF GOD" (Eph. 2:12-19)


Did you know know that these Scriptures are found in your Bible?


Gentiles are not GOATS! Africans are not GOATS! GOATS are those who REFUSE to serve Jesus and His brethren after they are given the opportunity to do so. And so, they must be go into eonian chasitsement (Matt. 25:46).


Now then, does Jeremiah's prophecy concerning "Israel" have anything to do with us Gentiles? Or is all that suff "out of context" as you suggest? Jeremiah and the prophets preached to and fortold the future of Israel. Why whee these things written down and preserved to this day? Why? Does God tell us why? Is it all for "context, context, context--ISRAEL?" To the GENTILE Corinthians Paul wrote this:


NNow these things were OUR examples, to the intent WE should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be YE idolaters, as were some of the; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play. Neither let US comit fornication, as some of the committed and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let US tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and wee destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur YE, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto T-H-E-M for ensamples: and they were written FOR 0-U-R ['our'--GENTILES, whom you think HAVE NO COVENANT WITH GOD] admonition, upon whom the ENDS OF THE WORLD [ages] are come" (I Cor. 10:1-11).


Did you not know that these Scriptures are in your Bible? All that is said of ISRAEL and all that is said of CHRIST, is said of US [Gentiles], because WE are now the "Israel of God" (Gal. 6:16). WE are the true Jew circumcised "in spirit and heart, not in the letter" (Rom. 2:29). It is WE Gentiles, "For WE A-R-E THE CIRCUMCISION, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh" (Eph. 3:3).


And it is IN the Church of God among the Gentiles that "The SHEPHERDS ARE LEADING THE SHEEP [not the goats] ASTRAY!"


You have not a clue as to what you are talking about, and you would do well to not judge how much love you think that I have or don't have toward humanity.


May God open your blinded and arrogant mind.


God be with you,


Ray


P.S. Thank you, but no, I do not wish for you to be my "teacher."


Dear Mr. Smith,


You responded to an e-mail I sent and now I am responding back. Your comments that I quote will be in blue and mine will be in red. The quotes of mine from the original e-mail I sent will be in black. God bless!


You state that I quote Jer. 50:6 "out of context," meaning that this verse pertains to Israel ONLY, and not to the "GOAT" Gentiles who have no "covenant" with God. You are wrong.


Where did I say this? I didn't...you did. I said that all who are not in covenant with God are goats. I will quote myself from the original e-mail I sent you...


"In order to be considered one of God's sheep, you must first be in covenant with God. All those who have no covenant with God are considered goats and will be separated from the sheep."


"Once again, until you have entered into a covenant with God you are not one of His sheep. You are a goat and must be separated."


"In verse 16 of the same chapter Jesus explains that he has other sheep who are not of this fold. This is an obvious reference to the future Gentile believers. The condition for being a sheep is always being in covenant with the shepherd. To enter into covenant with God one must believe."


Now where exactly did I say what you said I said? Nowhere. And in the context of Jeremiah 50:6 The Children of Israel are the sheep. Not the Babylonians. I am fully aware that God visited the Gentiles to take out a people for his name (Acts 15:14). Did you not catch the part where I said that Jesus' "OTHER SHEEP" was an OBVIOUS reference to future GENTILE BELIEVERS? I guess not.


Gentiles are not GOATS! Africans are not GOATS! GOATS are those who REFUSE to serve Jesus and His brethren after they are given the opportunity to do so. And so, they must be go into eonian chasitsement (Matt. 25:46).


All who are not in covenant with God ARE GOATS! I made this position clear from my original e-mail. Africans, Jews, Asians, and Americans...No Jesus...No covenant! That's it! Nothing you say can change the plain truth of the scriptures. There is a saying that goes, "When the plain sense of the scripture makes sense, seek no other sense."


I also find it quite peculiar how you like to use a translation of an entire verse but then transliterate everlasting into eonian (which should have been transliterated aionian). Why do you do this? Is it because eternal punishment doesn't fit your Universalist Theology? Yes, this is the reason. Do you also transliterate that verse eonian life? I've found out that the Concordant Literal New Testament is the pet Bible of Universalists. I made the mistake of thinking you were a Jehovah's Witness before I fully read your material. I apologize. Anyway...


You went on this tirade to show that the Church of Gentiles is "the Israel of God". The truth is that the Israel of God is made up of Jews and Gentiles.  The middle wall of partition has been broken down (Eph. 2:14).  But the words of Jeremiah 50:6 are still referring to the literal, physical, children of Israel, not the church in that context. The point was, is, and always will be...that even if you apply that verse to the Church, the people who are NOT in covenant with God are STILL GOATS!!! I do not believe that replacement theology is consistent with the scriptures. Funny thing is, I don't believe that most of your teaching is consistent with the scriptures. Please do not respond by telling me to show you where. I already sent you 20 pages showing you plenty of places and all you could say was...


"I will not attempt to critique his paper--it would take weeks, and I get a thousand emails a month. He quotes me saying things that are nowhere on my site. He argues the very same things that I COVER in my papers"


Aren't I supposed to argue the unscriptural things that you cover in your papers to show you where you are in error? And yes, it would take weeks to mar the scripture far beyond recognition in an attempt to "prove" me wrong. Sufficed to say, I can be wrong, but God cannot. I study His Word and am led by the Holy Spirit in everything I write. And I never quoted you as saying anything that wasn't on your site buddy. That is a blatant lie! Everything I quoted you as saying was cut and paste directly from your site. You just can't refute truth and you hate it. But anyway...Let's get back to this e-mail...


In your letter to Dr. Kennedy, you present the argument that the shepherd leaves the 99 to look for the lost sheep. The point is the sheep had to be in covenant with God first to be considered a sheep. I believe this was presented clearly but obviously you misunderstood me. Not all Jews were in covenant with God. This was presented clearly from the scripture I cited in John 10.


I receive a thousand emails a month, and therefore it is impossible for me to answer fully emails such as yours which would require tens of pages. I will however answer one major point you make so that you can SCRIPTURALLY see for yourself how unholy and untrue your unscriptural arguments are.


I believe that you do receive thousands of e-mails a month. But is it really impossible to answer me fully? Not at all. You seem to have no problem answering fully the masses of people who seem to lack any kind of Biblical insight and knowledge at all. I do believe that it would require tens of pages to twist the Word of God to successfully attempt to deceive me into thinking that I am wrong. I presented so few arguments that completely refute your teaching, and they did not require tens of pages. Why would it take so many to refute me?
 
I'll tell you why...reading your site is like litigation in a big business lawsuit. The big company's lawyers keep things tied up in court for so long that eventually the small plaintiff runs out of resources to keep moving forward and eventually forfeits. It is not that people cannot successfully refute you...they just get so tired of reading the garbage that you write that they leave it alone. Or perhaps some people just don't read their Bible. Thank God I read mine!


You also have not shown me how unholy, unscriptural, or untrue my arguments are. In fact you only addressed one argument. And in your response to that argument you said things that were not even true. The fact is that you cannot refute my arguments with scriptures rightly divided. You can however lift verses out of their setting, transliterate a few words in an attempt to confuse me or play on my lack of understanding the Greek language. You can twist scriptures and add your own spin and interpretation to them. But you cannot take God's Word, study it prayerfully and truthfully, rightly divide it, and then use it to correct me. This sir is what I did to you. You can't refute truth with truth. But I did, can, and will continue to refute false teaching (that's your teaching) with the Word of Truth.


You then end your little twisted response by calling me blind and arrogant and tell me that you do not wish for me to be your teacher. That is LAUGHABLE! No really, I chuckled when I read it. I understand why you are arrogant but I don't have the slightest idea how you would have gotten that impression from me in the e-mail I sent. In any event, I still love you with the Lord's love and pray that you become born again one day. I invite you to ask the Holy Spirit to be your teacher. He's mine and I know my doctrine is true because it comes from the one who inspired it. In any event...stick to shooting lame ducks. I spend too much time with God and His Word for you to intimidate me with your tens of pages of answers, responses, and refutations. (Now there I sounded arrogant!) God bless buddy!


P.S. Were you planning on writing a paper about yourself since you enjoy "exposing those who contradict"?  
 

Now then, we move along to another 'fantastic' work about what is REAL baptism. Presented by... http://www.spelledsideways.com/religion/more/religion3.shtml

To illustrate how Satan is leading mankind to perdition (see "If I were Satan" elsewhere on this site), we present an exchange of eletters with one L. Ray Smith, who maintains the web site bible-truths.com. This person is spending money to advertise his web site and his web site contains many half-truths and falsehoods.

   

He answers an eletter from somone who asks him about "water" baptism. He then proceeds to spout several paragraphs of nonsense and then finishes with:

 
According to Paul, "How many baptisms are there?"

 
"There is ONE body, and ONE Spirit, even as ye are called in ONE hope of your calling; ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE BAPTISM, ONE God and Father of all, Who is above all, and through all, and in you all" (Eph. 4:4-6).

 
And from those verses he comes up with:

 
Water baptism avails us NOTHING unless we are BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST (Rom. 6:3-7) with a baptism WITHOUT HANDS--not of the letter and the flesh, but of the SPIRIT!

 
After our second eletter to him and his reply, we gave up on trying to show him what the New Testament says about baptism. He has already made up his mind with preconceived ideas clouding his perceptions.  

He has failed to understand that being immersed in water for the forgiveness of one's sins and to receive the Holy Spirit must come first. All other "baptisms", spiritual or otherwise, must come after that. And it's only by being baptized in water that our sins are forgiven and we are saved.

 

Below is our exchange of eletters:

 

From us:

 
Mr. Smith (http://bible-truths.com/),

The Bible warns us of false prophets and those who teach falsehoods. Be very careful, sir.

 
Water is indeed needed for baptism and baptism is needed to be saved. Saved from what? From hell and the lake of fire, from eternal separation from God.

 
In at least three places, the New Testament reports of at least three different persons who were baptized by water after Christ's death and resurrection.

 
1) Paul himself. "Acts 22:16: And now what you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on His name." Wash with what? A spirit, the Holy Spirit, water? My guess is the latter, water.

 
But why guess?

 
2) In Acts 8:35,36 the Ethiopian eunuch being taught by Phillip asks, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?" Why did he think that water was needed for baptism? Phillip must have told him when he "told him the good news about Jesus."

 
3) Cornelius, the first gentile converted, and the group around him. Acts 10:46 "Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water?"

 
Be very afraid, sir, when you preach and teach that immersion by water is not necessary to save one's soul.

 
Read the short article "If I Were Satan..." at http://spelledsideways.com/religion/religion.shtml. I hope that you are not one of his.

 
From L. Ray Smith:

 
It's okay that you don't understand the meaning of baptism. It took Paul awhile before he recally came to understand it also (I Cor. 1:17). If you think physical circumcisn of the flesh from the penis is absolutely necessary for salvation, then you have not a clue as to what circumcision of the spirit and heart is all about. Likewise, if you think baptism in water is absolutely necessary for salvation, then neither do you understand what baptism into the death of Jesus is all about either, for they are BOTH THE SAME THING (Col. 2:10-13).

 
And if you think that God (Who IS LOVE) will torture most of His creatures in some terrorist hellhole for all eternity, then you have not even a clue as to Who God is, and what His plan of salvation is.

 

God be with you,

 
From us:

 
I do indeed know the meaning of the word baptism. The meaning of the word baptism is immersion. And the three instances I've cited in the New Testament all refer to baptism by water.

 
I'm always astounded by those who can read those (and other) verses in the New Testament and still refuse to believe that Christ and his disciples and his apostles all taught that baptism (that is, immersion [look it up]) is absolutely necessary for the forgiveness of one's sins and is one of the steps necessary to save one's soul.

 

A great number of people asked Peter how they could be saved. And he told them to be baptized for the forgiveness of their sins and that they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Look it up. I'll give you a hint: it's in Acts, chapter 2, verse 38. Refute that, o apprentice of Satan.

 
As for the question, will God punish evildoers, will he cast non-Christians into hell: I believe that God will do what he has told us he will do. Again, look it up, it's in the Bible.

 
And again, beware, sir, when you attempt to lead the lambs astray. Jesus has told us how false prophets will be "rewarded".

 
From L. Ray Smith:

 
Don't attempt to scold me like a little school boy who hasn't a clue as to what he is talking about. I did not say that you didn't know the dictionary definition of the word "baptism." It is the doctrine of baptism and what it stands for that you still do not understand. And I do not "lead the lambs astray." Where do I lead people on our site? Where? It's all about JESUS CHRIST. I DO lead my readers into the baptism of DEATH, BURIAL, AND RESURRECTION (Rom. 6:1-12). Everybody wants to be "water baptized," but how many want to be BURIED INTO CHRIST'S DEATH? How many? People love physical rituals, but they hate DYING TO THE CARNAL MIND. As long as you continue to think PHYSICAL, you will never understand SPIRITUAL. "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in the lusts thereof."

So ladys and gentleman as you can now clearly see there will be no need to go to bibletruths.com anymore. Now you've heard the REAL TRUTH. :lol:
Peace...STeve
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SteveB

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« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2006, 02:40:22 PM »

A couple of 'select' portions that amused me.

Quote
Now let me offer this analogy. Salvation is a free gift offered to all. If I stood in a room full of 100 people with 100 $1 dollar bills and told everyone that all they had to do to receive the $1 bill was take it...and only 50 people came and took it and the other 50 were left without the gift, Does that make me unjust or unloving? The same gift was offered to all and it was my will that all come and take it. There was enough for all to have an equal share. Only 50 chose to receive what was offered to the 100. The other 50 willfully rejected the free gift. I cannot force anyone to take it. I cannot change the will of any man. I can only offer.


NOw you all know God cant make anyone do anything THEY dont want.(LOL!)


Quote
1) Paul himself. "Acts 22:16: And now what you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on His name." Wash with what? A spirit, the Holy Spirit, water? My guess is the latter, water.



Forget the holy spirit all we need to do is get h20 wet. I wont be t
o hard on them i got h20 wet myself.  

Peace...Steve
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dogcombat

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« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2006, 02:55:30 PM »

Steve,

The 2 examples you posted show a clear distinction of persons who can't discern vision from illusion, and revelation from delusion.  Because, as Ray pointed out in one of the reponses, if we don't die to the CARNAL Mind daily, we won't understand spiritual things.

I notice the second writer erroneously put words in Peter's mouth
 
"And he told them to be baptized for the forgiveness of their sins and that they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Look it up. I'll give you a hint: it's in Acts, chapter 2, verse 38. Refute that, o apprentice of Satan.

Peter said "Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins that they would recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit".    as for calling Ray "apprientice of Satan", me thinks the writer shouldn't talk about himself like that.

If the writers didn't try to assume they knew everything, they would come to understand that only the Lord can remove the veil from their eyes (II Corinthian 3).  May God have mercy on them for they know not what they do.


Ches
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ertsky

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« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2006, 02:56:16 PM »

i could almost hear these guys saying

Joh 9:29  We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence he is.

 :D
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orion77

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« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2006, 03:25:22 PM »

Whew!!  The carnally minded truly stay in the physical, don't they?  They simply have not a clue, who the beast is.  

Amazing how well meaning these kind of people can be, yet still blind.  Impossible to argue with these types, both sides are just beating their heads against a wall.

It's no wonder why God has said the carnal mind is an enemy to His truths.  When the day comes, its going to be an eye popping shocker to them.   :shock:

Still the fire of God, His Spirit will heal them and they too will come out clean.  I would rather go through His judgments during this life, than then.

God bless,

Gary
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gmik

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« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2006, 07:51:14 PM »

Wow!!  I love reading all their gobbledegook. To me when I read Ray's replies they are crystal clear.  I get it!!  Their stuff is nothing-no substance, no understanding, just anger toward someone who dare go against their pet "hell doctrine". Amazing isn't it! Your eyes aren't open until He opens them.
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SteveB

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« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2006, 08:27:11 PM »

Quote
Wow!! I love reading all their gobbledegook. To me when I read Ray's replies they are crystal clear. I get it!! Their stuff is nothing-no substance, no understanding, just anger toward someone who dare go against their pet "hell doctrine". Amazing isn't it! Your eyes aren't open until He opens them.


Yes, they are blind on our account, for our mercy. I try not to forget that. But we must expose these heretics and pray God keeps us on the path of the few.

That being said,  the devil needs to get new help, cause these people aint foolin anybody. :o
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Sorin

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« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2006, 08:42:09 PM »

Why can't these people just refute Ray with Scripture and not refer to childish namecalling? I mean how do they figure " O apprentice of Satan"? why would an "Apprentice of Satan" bother to create a site like www.bible-truths.com
,bother to write all those papers, and do it all for free? Ray (and Mike too) has nothing to sell, where does Ray ever withhold something in one of his papers and say "you can know the rest of this for only $99.99"? but when you listen to any Christian radio, or watch any Christian television show, YOU WILL ALWAYS SEE THEM TRYING TO SELL YOU SOMETHING!! and that's exactly what they do , they tell you half of something that may sound interesting, and you may think like man this guy knows what his talking about, and you want to know the rest of what he has to say,but just then you
hear that FALSEPROPHET signature"you can know the rest for only...".
In other words, you gotta buy his cd or book or whatever.
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SteveB

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« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2006, 09:05:06 PM »

Quote
Why can't these people just refute Ray with Scripture and not refer to childish namecalling? I mean how do they figure " O apprentice of Satan"? why would an "Apprentice of Satan"


Because that all they have is namecalling. And LAME names at that..."O Apprentice of Satan"LOL!! This guys been reading to much Shakesphere.

Quote

and you may think like man this guy knows what his talking about, and you want to know the rest of what he has to say,but just then you
hear that FALSEPROPHET signature"you can
know the rest for only...".

So true. And this includes 99.9% of all 'Chirstindom'. Few does indeed mean few.
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ugthemc

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« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2006, 09:25:40 PM »

I thought he had some good points

Quote from: SteveB

41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;
42 for I did hunger, and ye gave me not to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me not to drink;
43 a stranger I was, and ye did not receive me; naked, and ye put not around me; infirm, and in prison, and ye did not look after me.
44 `Then shall they answer, they also, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in prison, and we did not minister to thee?
45 `Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of these, the least, ye did [it] not to me.


In verse 41, the mathew says that the 'cursed 'would go to fire... That definitely sounds LITERAL to me...

Quote from: SteveB

And let us read what the Prophet Daniel had to say concerning the resurrection of the dead.
Daniel 12 (Amplified)
2And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake: some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt and abhorrence.

Some will be raised to everlasting contempt and abhorrence. Is this possible if all will be saved?


Obviously this could not happen in heaven. Those who die in their sin will eventually be raised for judgement and cast into the lake of fire, where they will spend eternity.


Quote from: SteveB

I also find it quite peculiar how you like to use a translation of an entire verse but then transliterate everlasting into eonian (which should have been transliterated aionian). Why do you do this? Is it because eternal punishment doesn't fit your Universalist Theology? Yes, this is the reason. Do you also transliterate that verse eonian life? I've found out that the Concordant Literal New Testament is the pet Bible of Universalists. I made the mistake of thinking you were a Jehovah's Witness before I fully read your material. I apologize. Anyway...


Quote from: SteveB

You also have not shown me how unholy, unscriptural, or untrue my arguments are. In fact you only addressed one argument. And in your response to that argument you said things that were not even true. The fact is that you cannot refute my arguments with scriptures rightly divided. You can however lift verses out of their setting, transliterate a few words in an attempt to confuse me or play on my lack of understanding the Greek language. You can twist scriptures and add your own spin and interpretation to them. But you cannot take God's Word, study it prayerfully and truthfully, rightly divide it, and then use it to correct me. This sir is what I did to you. You can't refute truth with truth. But I did, can, and will continue to refute false teaching (that's your teaching) with the Word of Truth.


I thought the top three quotes were interesting as well....  what makes the Concordand Literal New Testament bible translations the most 'correct'?? What's the 'best' translation?
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SteveB

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« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2006, 10:21:45 PM »

Quote
In verse 41, the mathew says that the 'cursed 'would go to fire... That definitely sounds LITERAL to me...


Guess what? ITS NOT LITERAL FIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Deu 4:24 seeing that as for Yahweh thy God, a consuming fire, he is,-a jealous GOD.

Heb 12:29 For, even our God, is a consuming fire.

1Jo 3:2 Beloved! now, are we, children of God; and, not yet, hath it been made manifest, what we shall be,-We know that, if it should be made manifest, like unto him, shall we be, because we shall see him, just as he is.

Jer 5:14 Therefore, Thus, saith Yahweh, God of hosts, Because ye have spoken this word,-Behold me! making my words in thy mouth to be fire, And, this people,-wood, So shall it devour them.
Quote

I thought the top three quotes were interesting as well.... what makes the Concordand Literal New Testament bible translations the most 'correct'?? What's the 'best' translation?


This isnt about the concordant literal its about the meaning of WORDS. Read this...http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm

http://www.tentmaker.org/video/givingglory/ggindex.htm (also the analytical study of words book on the same site)
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Sorin

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« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2006, 10:38:24 PM »

Literal Fire? Why would God contradict Himself by torturing most of His own creatures with "literal fire" for eternity when He inspired Paul to say "for God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness". burning people with "literal fire" for eternity is hardly what one might call an act of "kindness".  

See Romans 11:32
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Mickyd

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« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2006, 11:19:39 PM »

:lol: Always with these people it's "Context..context...context". The want everyone to read the Bible like a history book or a novel. Let him put this in his context pipe and smoke it....

"Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." 1 Corinthians 2:6-16
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Mickyd

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« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2006, 11:29:34 PM »

Quote from: Sorin
Literal Fire? Why would God contradict Himself by torturing most of His own creatures with "literal fire" for eternity when He inspired Paul to say "for God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness". burning people with "literal fire" for eternity is hardly what one might call an act of "kindness".  

See Romans 11:32


Better watch it Sorin...you're taking things out of "Context" here.....you know Paul is talking about the Jews...God's chosen people.  :wink:
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Sorin

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« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2006, 11:30:49 PM »

Quote from: Mickyd
Let him put this in his context pipe and smoke it....


Classic!! Love it! :lol: :wink:
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lilitalienboi16

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« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2006, 11:39:04 PM »

I read the article on Mike vinson website about the Apostles way of Rightly dividing the Word, and God bless him it was an eye opener like no other. I thank the Lord for revealing this too me, now i can understand so much more about the bible. How the Old testement is ALL ABOUT JESUS!

Praise God also for not keeping us Carnal, and revealing the truth to us.

Hallelujah! :)
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Sorin

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« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2006, 11:47:18 PM »

Quote from: Mickyd
Quote from: Sorin
Literal Fire? Why would God contradict Himself by torturing most of His own creatures with "literal fire" for eternity when He inspired Paul to say "for God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness". burning people with "literal fire" for eternity is hardly what one might call an act of "kindness".  

See Romans 11:32


Better watch it Sorin...you're taking things out of "Context" here.....you know Paul is talking about the Jews...God's chosen people.  :wink:


Hehe. yeah.



Ever wonder why Christians say "context, context, context"? could it be because they believe in " God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit"? Though you'll never find " God The Holy Spirit" anywhere in the Bible.
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orion77

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« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2006, 12:00:08 AM »

Ugthemc, hello, have you read the articles on bible-truths.com?  If not, please go read them with your bible handy and a humble spirit.  There is a great deal of truth taught here, if that is what you are seeking.

Planily throughout the bible, from the old to the new, is taught that there are two ways to discern the Word of God.  It takes the fire of God, which is His Spirit to make it possible to see the spiritual truths that God has kept hidden since the world began.  I am not talking about the feel good, fleshly experience we all have with the Spirit, I am talking about grace, chastisement, trials and tribulations.  This is the fire we are all put through to burn the hay, straw and stubble from us, before we see just who we really are.  

Until God drags us through these experiences, the flesh will not let go and relinquish its control over to God.  I can see from your response, it seems you have not read all the material on this site.  It will be worth your while, but note this is not for the carnally minded, they simply cannot understand these things.

God bless,

Gary
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Sorin

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« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2006, 01:01:02 AM »

Quote from: SteveB
Quote from: Sorin
Literal Fire? Why would God contradict Himself by torturing most of His own creatures with "literal fire" for eternity when He inspired Paul to say "for God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness". burning people with "literal fire" for eternity is hardly what one might call an act of "kindness".



Amen Sista!



Hey Bro, I'm a Bro too! :lol: :wink:
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theyachtman

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« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2006, 02:44:35 AM »

Mid 1800's: Firstly, I would throw out anything with the name 'Darby' on it.  John Darby was one of the founding fathers of Dispensational Theology which was based on his literal interpretation of the bible.  

Late 1800's: Darby inspired Cyrus Scofield, a felon and a man who abandoned his family to pursue his corrupt Scofield Commentary with more literal interpretation, but only commenting on parts of the bible that suited his agenda.

1900's: Dallas Theological Seminary and the budding Assemblies Of God church put their own book covers on Scofields corrupted work and look what a mess that ensued:

1.) The so called rapture of the church
2.) This so-called one man antichrist
3.) Manipulation/lapse of Daniel's 70 weeks
4.) One set tribulation period for all
5.) The rejected-by-God Jews who rejected the Son Of God the all of a sudden being a 'chosen' people again.

And so much more . . .

Not sure I want debate with you MickeyD because quite honestly YOU are where I was about 5 years ago and you must cut through all these weeds to get to the next clearing God has for you.  I look forward to that day!
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