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Author Topic: What ARE we saved from?  (Read 3998 times)

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Matt

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What ARE we saved from?
« on: April 08, 2008, 02:39:49 AM »

In one of Ray's recent emails he wrote
Quote
Surprising as it may sound, there is not one Scripture in the entirety of the Bible which states that Jesus came to "save us from HELL."  Why do you suppose that is?  Because Jesus does NOT save us from hell. Jesus saves us from such evil, and foolishness, and pride, and vanity, and evil, and pain, and suffering, and disease, and fear, and sin, and DEATH.

My wife just asked me this question this weekend!  She wondered, what are we saved from ???
Does anyone have a list of all the scriptures that say what we are saved from to go with Ray's email?
I sense that my wife is getting close to asking me all the "right" questions and I am very excited ;D

Please, nobody needs to start this from scratch, I was just checking to see if anyone did this already to give me a headstart.

Thanks in advance,
Matt
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Chris R

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Re: What ARE we saved from?
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2008, 03:12:34 AM »

Hi Matt,

One doesn't have to believe in a fabled Hell of eternal torture to realize that there is plenty to be saved from! How about saved from sin and evil? What about being saved from ourselves? What about being saved from weakness, stupidity, ignorance, foolishness and vanity? What about being saved from corruption, immorality, mortality and death? [Ray Smith]  "letter to Haggee"

Thought you might like the above quote

Chris R
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Stevernator

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Re: What ARE we saved from?
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2008, 03:18:53 AM »

Hi Matt,

Mat 1:21 Now she shall be bringing forth a Son, and you shall be calling His name Jesus, for He shall be saving His people from their sins."

1Sa 4:3 And the people comes in unto the camp, and the elders of Israel say, `Why has Yahweh smitten us to-day before the Philistines? we take unto us from Shiloh the ark of the covenant of Yahweh, and it comes into our midst, and He does save us out of the hand of our enemies.

Jdg 2:16 And Yahweh raises up judges, and they save them from the hand of their spoilers;"

1Ch 16:35 And say, Save us, O Elohim of our salvation, And gather us, and deliver us from the nations, To give thanks to Your holy name, To triumph in Your praise.

Neh 9:27 and You give them into the hand of their adversaries, and they distress them, and in the time of their distress they cry unto You, and You, from the heavens, do hear, and, according to Your abundant mercies, do give to them saviours, and they save them out of the hand of their adversaries.

Psa 37:40 And Yahweh shall help them and deliver them; He shall deliver them from the wicked and save them, For they took refuge in Him."

OT was usually about being saved from enemies but the gospel is about being saved from our sins.

Isa 1:18 Go, pray and it shall be corrected,saying is Yahweh. "If your sins are coming to be as double dipped scarlet, as snow shall they be white. If they are reddened as crimson, as wool shall they become.

Peace,
Steve

PS There are many more scriptures about being saved from enemies in the OT. Here is another interesting one.

Psa 109:31 For He is standing at the right hand of the needy one, In order to save him from those judging his soul."
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David

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Re: What ARE we saved from?
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2008, 05:16:01 AM »

I think ultimatley we are saved from death. All of the things Ray lists can be attributed to sin. Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
All of our human flaws are sin, which the bible says leads to death. 1 Cor 15:26-28  The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.”  But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be All in All.
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Dave UK

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Re: What ARE we saved from?
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2008, 06:41:06 PM »

Hi

Quote
One doesn't have to believe in a fabled Hell of eternal torture to realize that there is plenty to be saved from! How about saved from sin and evil? What about being saved from ourselves? What about being saved from weakness, stupidity, ignorance, foolishness and vanity? What about being saved from corruption, immorality, mortality and death?

Good point. I have come to the understanding that the more I learn of God's truth and the incredible demands it places on me,the more I realise that I need a saviour now. I think Paul summed it up nicely in Romans.

For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. Rom 7:18

For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Roman 7:22-23


that's me for sure

Dave
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pylady

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Re: What ARE we saved from?
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2008, 10:01:55 PM »

Hi Matt,

Funny I was just thinking on this subject of what being saved means.  I just love it when that happens!  ;) ;D ;)

My family does't like to talk about God or being saved.  It always amazes me that what I love so much is off limits to them.  My son says it all "seems silly".
Is this the damage the churches have caused even to those who do not belong to churches, by teaching that being saved means you get to float around up in heaven forever singing praises and bowing to a god who is sitting on a throne amid thunder and lightening while most of humanity are burning in an eternal fire down below?

so according to the churches our options are:
         a.  be saved and be bored
         b.  not saved and tortured

no wonder people just turn off their minds and don't even want to think about these things!

But we know the hope of being saved gives us a hope for our future - a glorious, exciting future where we are freed from all the effects of sin that bring us so much sorrow, suffering and despair right now.

What will being saved be like?

Along with the Scripture already quoted two of my favorite are:

Rev 21:4   and He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there shall no longer be any death; there shall no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."    Freedom from death, mourning, crying and pain
Is 2:4 "And He will judge between the nations, and will render decisions for many peoples; and they will hammer their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks.  Nation will not lift up sword against nation.  And never again will they learn war."

The end of war, along with nations using their resources for peaceful purposes.

I would love if you guys would share some of your favorite scriptures and ideas of what being saved means to you.  :)

Your sister in Christ,

               Cindy
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Little Joe

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Re: What ARE we saved from?
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2008, 11:30:45 AM »

The big thing for me is being saved from "myself"  ;)

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Peace and Mercy,

Joe

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KristaD

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Re: What ARE we saved from?
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2008, 05:48:12 PM »

The big thing for me is being saved from "myself"  ;)

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Peace and Mercy,

Joe



Exactly. I spent years destroying my life and I fully believe that I would not be alive now if God opened my eyes when He did. He truly saved me from myself and my desire to sin as well as my inability to do good. He made me a new person through Christ who lives in me.
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phazel

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Re: What ARE we saved from?
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2008, 10:56:45 AM »

I do not mean to sound like I am doubting salvation, but I wonder sometimes if salvation is how it appears to us.

For instance,  Christianity gives this impression that we are out here alone, then along came jesus to save us.  Like being locked in a prison by some terrorists and the Marines figured out we were in trouble and made a plan to come and rescue us.


Are we really being saved from anything?   Are we really ever lost?  Or does it only appear that we need saving, does it only appear that we are lost? 

If God is creating humanity in his image then everything is right on track and at any given time our state of being is only an illusion to the  reality of Gods plan.


If we are destined to understand and believe, then nothing else can happen no matter how it appears to us right now?   





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KristaD

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Re: What ARE we saved from?
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2008, 11:31:25 AM »

For those that have all that they want and are happy most of the time I'm sure it doesn't seem that we need saved in this life. But from someone who suffered greatly with drugs and depression I can assure you He saved me now, in this life, from my sin. Yes we are all destined for salvation eventually, but I am thankful every day that He made Himself known to me and dragged me kicking and screaming out of the hole I was in (be it real or in my mind) to life me up and give me strength and peace in the present. No, were are not really lost as He is everywhere and always with us, but when we are blind it's impossible to see Him even though He's there. Our state of mind believing that we are alone may very well be an illusion but it takes Him to overcome it, that is how He saves us from ourselves; He saves us from our minds/illusions.
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phazel

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Re: What ARE we saved from?
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2008, 11:43:30 AM »


I understand what your saying and I am far from having a life where everything goes great,  far, far from it. 


I have depression now, I have been beaten and abused and neglected in my life,  does God need to save me from it, or is it for a purpose.  I find looking back, that I was taught by what I went through rather than being saved from it. 

 Would we not find evil in someone who picked up a person and threw them against their will into a deep pit only to pull them back out and talk about how great they were for saving the person they threw into a pit?


I guess we would be glad they did not leave us in there, but my point is that salvation may be a reletive VS absolute aspect of scripture.   


We think we are being Saved,  but is a God who sets us up, worthy of worship?   We are subject to vanity unwillingly.  But are we being saved from the vanity we are subject to or being taught by it?


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KristaD

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Re: What ARE we saved from?
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2008, 12:51:08 PM »

Saving us from ourselves is not the same as saving us from a situation. He walks us through it (often drags me I feel) but doesn't immediately remove us from it. Yes it serves a purpose, or He would not cause it to happen.  God doesn't throw us into the pit, He merely lets us wander into it following our own desires; according to His purpose. Yes it is His will that we fall in, but He doesn't push us. The most accurate comparison is to a parent, which He compares Himself to. As a parent I often let my children wander into situations that I know I can save them from so that they may learn by it. For example my son likes to wander away from us in stores, so sometimes I will hide and watch him. He realizes he is alone and gets scared, then I come out. That moment of fear teaches him much more than me simply saying "don't wander off", this is what God does with us only it's more organized by Him. God's saving is not once or twice, it's daily saving from our sins from our minds our own depravity. We are saved at the same time we are being taught. Now whether or not you feel that God is worthy of worship is on you. I, for one, feel that, wholeheartedly, yes He is worthy of all of our praise. He made us how we are but He does not force us to be this way, it is still our desire. That's why I feel such humility, that I can never do right without Him, b/c I am what I am. When He made Himself known in my life He started changing me into a new creature. One that didn't cause self destruction all of the time. Yes I have some hard times, but my spirit is changed, my attitude and outlook and I can see Him with me so yes I AM SAVED ;D, praise God everyday I am saved!!!
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phazel

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Re: What ARE we saved from?
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2008, 01:22:58 PM »

I still do understand what you are saying,  but there is nothing that God did not design and plan for.

It cannot be both ways, no matter how it is explained, no matter how it is rationalized here in this forum or by Rays teachings. 

 We have nothing that is of our own,  even our own will is designed by Giod, even our carnal desires was designed by God.   Our "WILL" is only ours because it is not someone elses,  the carnal desire I might have as lust for another woman is there because God intended and designed it to be there.

The desire I had to do drugs was there because God intended and designed it to be there.    If I am constantly being Saved from something in the humanistic view of being Saved then God is a monster who is inflicting pain upon us and saving us from it and manipulating us to think that we are being saved from something that apart from God we would not be saved from it.


See, without God, we would have never existed in the first place, without God, we would have never sinned or experienced evil or pain and suffering to be saved from because it would not have existed in the first place.


We exist, experience pain, experience suffering, we inflict pain and suffering only because God purposed it.


The ABSOLUTE is that EVERYTHING is part of the process of being created into the image of GOD.    Everything else is reletive.


« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 01:24:46 PM by phazel »
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KristaD

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Re: What ARE we saved from?
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2008, 02:04:03 PM »

I still do understand what you are saying,  but there is nothing that God did not design and plan for.

It cannot be both ways, no matter how it is explained, no matter how it is rationalized here in this forum or by Rays teachings. 

 We have nothing that is of our own,  even our own will is designed by Giod, even our carnal desires was designed by God.   Our "WILL" is only ours because it is not someone elses,  the carnal desire I might have as lust for another woman is there because God intended and designed it to be there.

The desire I had to do drugs was there because God intended and designed it to be there.    If I am constantly being Saved from something in the humanistic view of being Saved then God is a monster who is inflicting pain upon us and saving us from it and manipulating us to think that we are being saved from something that apart from God we would not be saved from it.


See, without God, we would have never existed in the first place, without God, we would have never sinned or experienced evil or pain and suffering to be saved from because it would not have existed in the first place.


We exist, experience pain, experience suffering, we inflict pain and suffering only because God purposed it.


The ABSOLUTE is that EVERYTHING is part of the process of being created into the image of GOD.    Everything else is reletive.



You are right it is ALL His will. It was His will for me to do drugs, get pregnant as a teen, drink and party and lie and steal. But it was still my desire to do those things. Yes He made me to where I would desire it, but in my mind that doesn't make me less guilty of the crime of wanting/doing it. I felt just like you do at one point and said the same things. God showed me that just b/c I can't rationalize it and explain it all that doesn't mean He's wrong. He has a purpose we can not understand. In the end we must have faith that it will be worth it. It's like the saying "it's better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all", He knows something we don't (a lot things) and He has such beauty and wonder in store for us that we can't fathom it, but in the end we will look back on everything we went through and praise Him b/c it was all so worth it. This isn't something you can come to on your own, it's the faith part, the faith of Jesus that we receive from Him; and once we have His faith we are saved from our minds/sins and can overcome our situations and praise God for what we haven't seen yet.
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phazel

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Re: What ARE we saved from?
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2008, 02:19:29 PM »

Yes He made me to where I would desire it, but in my mind that doesn't make me less guilty of the crime of wanting/doing it.

We are on the same wavelength for the most part,  guilt is an issue that at least in how you explain it I must disagree.

The issue of guilt is emotion.  You are accountable and I am accountable for what we do only because WE are the ones that do it, there is really nothing more to it than that if God is in control.   Accountability does not mean guilt as we view it emotionally or even by definition.

We should not "feel" guilty if we are not responsible and couldn't do anything else other than what we have done in our lives. 


The definition of guilty

1.Responsible for or chargeable with a reprehensible act; deserving of blame; culpable: guilty of cheating; the guilty party.
 

We may be able to "say" we are guilty if we are sure we are meaning accountability.   


I say all this understanding that I feel guilt and I feel remorese when I do something that is wrong.  But many times my feelings are emotional based upon how I view the way others might see me, not always thinking i have displeased God.


I honestly do not know how to feel that I have displeased God if he is the designer and purposer of everything I do.   It is not my responsibility that I have displeased God in the first place it is his.


Now, is there any other way to be transformed into the image of God than what God has planned?   NO......


That is the difference. 



« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 02:22:31 PM by phazel »
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KristaD

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Re: What ARE we saved from?
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2008, 02:41:01 PM »

You're right we are not technically "guilty" but accountable; but my feelings are emotion and what I feel when I do wrong is guilt. And yes it is His will when we 'displease" Him, that's why we must get up, stop apologizing and move on. We are forgiven. I spent many months feeling separate from Him b/c of guilt ,so you're right it is a very important point that even our sins are His will and responsibility.
I guess I don't really see what you are talking about now, as it seems that you are just picking out words to disagree with ???
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mharrell08

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Re: What ARE we saved from?
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2008, 03:06:57 PM »

Hello KristaD & Phazel,

Here is an email from Ray regarding Accountablity and Responsibility. The reason I am posting it is because this seems to be where you 2 disagree. I could be wrong but I am only hoping that it helps. Thanks


I haven't gone to church for many years now because I didn't feel right with any of the numerous ones that I attended. What a treat it was that I happened on to your website! Now if only I could find a church who believed the same way.

There is only one thing that I cannot figure out. It has really been bothering me and I hope you dot mind me asking. Since all of the events in our life are predetermined, how is it that we can be held accountable for what we do?

Maybe I got my wires crossed while reading your website but this is the question that has stuck in my mind.

Thanks to you and your devotion to the truly good news!

Vince


[Ray Replies]

Dear Vince:

Thank you for your email and question.

There are a couple of reasons why God holds one accountable (not responsible--God takes the responsibility) for his sins even if we couldn't have done otherwise.

People who sin and have no desire to please God, do not believe in the first place that they do not have a free will regarding their sins.   They believe that they ARE in control of their own destiny. See the example of that I use of the Assyrian king in the latter part of my letter to James Kennedy.  The king took credit for conquering all the nations around him. He though HE was the mighty one. He thought HE planned and did these mighty acts by HIMSELF.  God informs us that the king was merely a pawn (or an ax) in God's own hand doing the conquering.  Our pride and vanity will be conquered by God.

We actually DO commit the sins that we commit. Whether we could have done otherwise is immaterial in as much as committing the sin makes us SINNERS.  Think of sin as DIRT.  It matters not HOW we got dirty--God is going to give EVERYONE A BATH LIKE IT OR NOT. God is God and He can and will do as HE pleases. And God pleases to put us through an experience of sin and death before He glorifies us with all the powers of the universe.

Sincerely,

Ray

« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 03:09:29 PM by mharrell08 »
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hillsbororiver

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Re: What ARE we saved from?
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2008, 03:27:55 PM »

You know if we are unaware of the plan and purpose of God then in ignorance we do what we believe is best for us at any given moment, often with a "damn the torpedoes" type of fatalistic approach. I know I did.

But once He begins to open our eyes and ears to who and what Christ actually is and our place in the scheme of things we begin to seek to do His will. That in a nutshell is what this whole experience is all about.

Learning obedience.

I believe that everyone at some point thinks they could have worked out this plan of creation (we are a work in progress) better than God, why all the pain, why all the doubts and unanswered questions, who needs these agonizing trials?

It does not seem right to us.


Pro 14:12  There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Jer 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

To our old way of thinking this world makes no sense, why does God allow so many bad things happen to "good" people? He has done things just the opposite of what we suppose we would do if we had the power. As I stated above this whole journey is about seeking and doing His will, in being obedient, so how does God accomplish this? He puts "enmity" against Him in our carnal minds! (Rom 8:17)

What is up with that?


Isa 28:21  For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.

In this creation process we must experience being disobedient first, then we come to the point of wanting to do right, to please Him but we of ourselves can't. We fail, stumble and fall but when we do there is His hand to lift us up once again, perhaps a bit stronger in spirit as we realize that only through Christ can we have victory, as His mind/Spirit increases within us our natural carnal mind decreases. (John 3:30)

Ray has written a whole lot on exactly this topic, we are here to learn obedience, that theme is throughout the bible and throughout the articles on Bible Truths.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

 

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KristaD

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Re: What ARE we saved from?
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2008, 03:44:33 PM »

Hmm I didn't think we were disagreeing on it. I had just used the wrong word. Thanks for the e-mail. I've read it before and agree ;D
Maybe I just don't explain my point well. Oh well, I was only trying to help
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