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Author Topic: A little confused  (Read 4709 times)

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Mark J.

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A little confused
« on: May 11, 2006, 05:54:56 AM »

Hi all

I need a little help with a question I have after reading some of Ray's papers.

First up, I joined this forum because I do agree with what Ray has imparted to us through  the divining God's word through His spirit. But i'm stuck on something.

I wholeheartedly agree that God will not be casting the majority of the human race into eternal torment, and that He will be saving everyone through His son Jesus Christ.

My question though is this:

What DOES occur with those who have neither heard or, have heard but reject the gospel of Jesus Christ? Probably more the latter. Those who have heard but rejected it. How will they be brought to acceptance of the gospel, particularly after death?

What will be happening to the serial killers, child molesters and mass rapists after they die in their sin having rejected the gospel of Christ?
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zander

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« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2006, 09:07:06 AM »

Hey mark.

Ray answers a lot of this in his papers.

But here a few scriptures.

Revelation 17:14 tells us exactly who the elect are:

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

This means that not only do you have to be called, you must be chosen and even then its not complete, you must be faithful to Christ's laws.  So understanding and rejecting is no use.  You are therefore not chosen to be with Christ in the next age if you do this.

Regarding "Those that have never heard" you should read Rays paper on it and then reference all his scriptures with your bibles/scriptures to make sure its correct.
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Mark J.

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« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2006, 10:00:14 AM »

Thanks Zander

But that wasn't what I was asking.

What I was asking was, if in the end the whole world is to be saved, then in a sense aren't all these sinners, and yes I know i'm one of them, kind of getting off scot free?

And before you go there, yes, I know as believers that we are under the grace of God purchased by Christs blood for all our sins.

Here's an example to try and make it clear what it is I'm actually asking:

A child molester/ axe murderer/ mass rapist , ( insert heinous crime), is later in life offered a chance to repent of his sin and accept Christ. He rejects this offer. He dies.

Then what happens to him?

He's rejected Christ, so he's without representation at judgement before the throne of God to give account for his actions. He's NOT under grace because he rejected Christ.

What is God going to do with the likes of these people?

That's what I'm asking.

I'm convinced that there is no eternal torment in Hell, but what then is  the cost of rejecting Christs salvation?

I also know that the wages of sin is death. I'm talking about the judgement. Without some sort of punishment judgement becomes kind of redundant.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

I'm just trying to understand and would appreciate some help.
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eutychus

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A little confused
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2006, 10:05:48 AM »

[img]
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Mark J.

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A little confused
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2006, 10:25:24 AM »

OK. So now we're saying there IS INDEED burning in Hell and therefore it logically follows that not everyone will be saved.

I've misunderstood what Ray was saying then. Because he was really pushing the line that Christ was the saviour of the whole world, but if there are people burning in Hell, I guess that doesn't happen. Where is the salvation for them?

Can someone please give me something definitive on this that I can wrap my head around?
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hillsbororiver

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A little confused
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2006, 11:33:32 AM »

Hello Mark,

As Bobby said it is apparent you have not read through the "Lake of Fire" series. I would suggest you study it as it should clear up the question you posed.

There is no hint in scripture (or Ray's papers) that the guilty will get off "scot free" the spiritual fire that is the Spirit of God will purge those in the 2nd resurrection of their carnal desires, it will refine them and burn away the wickedness in their heart. I do not believe they will consider it a walk in the park.



Heb 10:31  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Heb 12:29  For our God is a consuming fire.


1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This "fire" is not the fire of a ficticious hell, but the chastising (by God) of the unrepentant heart.

Joe
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SteveB

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A little confused
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2006, 11:40:27 AM »

Quote
OK. So now we're saying there IS INDEED burning in Hell and therefore it logically follows that not everyone will be saved.

I've misunderstood what Ray was saying then. Because he was really pushing the line that Christ was the saviour of the whole world, but if there are people burning in Hell, I guess that doesn't happen. Where is the salvation for them?

Can someone please give me something definitive on this that I can wrap my head around?


INDEED NOT, Mark! Hell(hades, gehenna, tartarus, sheol) are all SPIRITUAL WORDS NOT LITERAL FIRE.

Those who have never heard just like everyone pre-pentacost will be in the second resurection. And WILL GO THROUGH THE 'LAKE OF FIRE'. To be cleansed of impurity but they WILL BE SAVED YET SO AS BY (SPIRITUAL) FIRE.

They will be beaten with few stripes but the 'christians' who believe in ET will be beaten with MANY STRIPES. (not literal beatings either)

The fire is the WORD of God and i burns, let me tell ya.

GOD WILL BE ALL IN ALL, AND I CANT WAIT! :D
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Falconn003

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« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2006, 11:48:16 AM »

MARK

Go read !!!.....the articles BY Ray and Mike, whom both worked so hard on for your benefit !!!

And you will grasp a clearer answers to all your questions.


Rodger
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Mark J.

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A little confused
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2006, 12:38:04 PM »

Woah, woah, woah!!!!

Hold it!

The post I replied to was NOT bobby's. It was the one above that looks like it's since been deleted as it's not there anymore. I'd say it was deleted because it was from someone who doesn't share the beliefs of this group. So there's no need for anyone to get on the back foot here. it's a continuity problem with the thread, nothing more.

Peace!!!!!

Let's not get hot and bothered about it.

I AM currently reading the series, this is why I asked the original question in the first place. I wanted to be sure I was understanding it correctly. Nothing more.

If none of you want to, or can't help me understand it, well I can't say I'm not disappointed, but ok, I accept that.

Wow..tough room.
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eutychus

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A little confused
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2006, 12:49:32 PM »

Quote from: Mark J.
Woah, woah, woah!!!!

Hold it!

The post I replied to was NOT bobby's. It was the one above that looks like it's since been deleted as it's not there anymore. I'd say it was deleted because it was from someone who doesn't share the beliefs of this group. So there's no need for anyone to get on the back foot here. it's a continuity problem with the thread, nothing more.

Peace!!!!!

Let's not get hot and bothered about it.

I AM currently reading the series, this is why I asked the original question in the first place. I wanted to be sure I was understanding it correctly. Nothing more.

If none of you want to, or can't help me understand it, well I can't say I'm not disappointed, but ok, I accept that.

Wow..tough room.






 i deleted because it weas read right over!

i qouted:

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:



  does thi9s speak of hell? NO

when you where a kid and you got caught  remember the heat and readness that came over your face???

multiply that ,,,,,, hmmm  go figure?



 and unbeleiver one who denied Christ  would he not be tortured
in the presence of the one he denied??
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hillsbororiver

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A little confused
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2006, 12:52:13 PM »

Quote from: Mark J.
OK. So now we're saying there IS INDEED burning in Hell and therefore it logically follows that not everyone will be saved.

I've misunderstood what Ray was saying then. Because he was really pushing the line that Christ was the saviour of the whole world, but if there are people burning in Hell, I guess that doesn't happen. Where is the salvation for them?

Can someone please give me something definitive on this that I can wrap my head around?


Mark, sorry you were offended but all I can see here is a response to the the statements you posted above.

People who have read Ray's material, even a little of it know there is no such statement from him concerning anyone "burning in hell" the Lake of Fire? Yes. Spiritual Fire. Yes.

Please take these posts in the spirit they are given, and again if my post offended you, I apologize.

Joe
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hillsbororiver

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A little confused
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2006, 12:55:26 PM »

Quote from: hillsbororiver
Hello Mark,

As Bobby said it is apparent you have not read through the "Lake of Fire" series. I would suggest you study it as it should clear up the question you posed.

There is no hint in scripture (or Ray's papers) that the guilty will get off "scot free" the spiritual fire that is the Spirit of God will purge those in the 2nd resurrection of their carnal desires, it will refine them and burn away the wickedness in their heart. I do not believe they will consider it a walk in the park.



Heb 10:31  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Heb 12:29  For our God is a consuming fire.


1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This "fire" is not the fire of a ficticious hell, but the chastising (by God) of the unrepentant heart.

Joe


Mark,

Were these scriptural quotes of no use? I can supply more if you like.

I know that Ray's papers are lengthy but please take your time in reading them with your bible close by, there is no hurry, just take your time and if you have questions "fire" away!

Welcome to the Forum Brother,

Joe
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eutychus

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A little confused
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2006, 12:55:47 PM »

mark,
 another tid bit i find interesting is brimstone is a cleaning agent :wink:

 and does not fire purify?

 peace
chuckt
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Mark J.

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A little confused
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2006, 01:06:19 PM »

eutychus.

My sincerest apologies to you. I totally misinterpreted what you said before.

Quote
As Bobby said it is apparent you have not read through the "Lake of Fire" series. I would suggest you study it as it should clear up the question you posed.

There is no hint in scripture (or Ray's papers) that the guilty will get off "scot free" the spiritual fire that is the Spirit of God will purge those in the 2nd resurrection of their carnal desires, it will refine them and burn away the wickedness in their heart. I do not believe they will consider it a walk in the park.



I didn't mean in anyway to imply that I thought the guilty got off scot free. I just wanted to fully understand what happens to them, and you have answered it in a way I can understand. Thank you.

And just to reiterate, I am in the process of reading Rays papers. I just didn't think that asking a question while doing so would cause this much fuss. I will also continue to read Rays papers and save my questions till the end.
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eutychus

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A little confused
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2006, 01:09:20 PM »

Quote from: Mark J.
eutychus.

My sincerest apologies to you. I totally misinterpreted what you said before.

Quote
As Bobby said it is apparent you have not read through the "Lake of Fire" series. I would suggest you study it as it should clear up the question you posed.

There is no hint in scripture (or Ray's papers) that the guilty will get off "scot free" the spiritual fire that is the Spirit of God will purge those in the 2nd resurrection of their carnal desires, it will refine them and burn away the wickedness in their heart. I do not believe they will consider it a walk in the park.

Quote


I didn't mean in anyway to imply that I thought the guilty got off scot free. I just wanted to fully understand what happens to them, and you have answered it in a way I can understand. Thank you.

And just to reiterate, I am in the process of reading Rays papers. I just didn't think that asking a question while doing so would cause this much fuss. I will also continue to read Rays papers and save my questions till the end.





Love and Grace to you brother. :P


2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen.


euty/chuck
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shibboleth

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A little confused
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2006, 01:24:24 PM »

Fire is a symbol for Gods all-encompassing cleansing of our hearts, minds and souls. People who die without knowing Christ, will have to have their minds renewed to be in conformity to what and who Christ is. This spiritual cleansing will hurt like hell. {excuse the pun}
I believe God is a fir and just God, so His punishments are fair and just. So child molesters, murderers, thieves, liars and all other sinners will be in LOF as long as God deems it necessary to cleanse their mind of all the garbage and false teaching.
The elect and chosen are being cleansed here on earth and won't go through LOF.
I have thought about LOF and how much time should Hitler be there as compared to someone who killed one person. Over 6 million people to one? I don't have a clue how God is going to do it, but I do know my God is just, fair and merciful. And anything He does will be done with that in His mind.
I had to study LOF for 4 months straight. I woke up in the morning and read. I came home from work and I read. I read before I went to be. I was obsessed with LOF. One morning I woke up and something was missing. I wasn't obsessed anymore. God showed me what the LOF was and I was at peace with God about his punishments only being for a short time to conform man to his image.
God truly is a loving God. Just keep reading and your spiritual eyes will be opened.
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Becky

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A little confused
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2006, 01:26:28 PM »

Quote from: shibboleth
Fire is a symbol for Gods all-encompassing cleansing of our hearts, minds and souls. People who die without knowing Christ, will have to have their minds renewed to be in conformity to what and who Christ is. This spiritual cleansing will hurt like hell. {excuse the pun}
I believe God is a fir and just God, so His punishments are fair and just. So child molesters, murderers, thieves, liars and all other sinners will be in LOF as long as God deems it necessary to cleanse their mind of all the garbage and false teaching.
The elect and chosen are being cleansed here on earth and won't go through LOF.
I have thought about LOF and how much time should Hitler be there as compared to someone who killed one person. Over 6 million people to one? I don't have a clue how God is going to do it, but I do know my God is just, fair and merciful. And anything He does will be done with that in His mind.
I had to study LOF for 4 months straight. I woke up in the morning and read. I came home from work and I read. I read before I went to be. I was obsessed with LOF. One morning I woke up and something was missing. I wasn't obsessed anymore. God showed me what the LOF was and I was at peace with God about his punishments only being for a short time to conform man to his image.
God truly is a loving God. Just keep reading and your spiritual eyes will be opened.



so true!
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lilitalienboi16

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A little confused
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2006, 01:49:49 PM »

Mark it seems you are having a hard time understanding what GODS FIRE is all about. Let me try and make this understanble. Don't worry it takes time to understand this, it is not something the carnel mind can grasp. It is of the SPIRIT OF GOD. Pray for the SPIRIT to OPEN YOUR EYES, YOUR SPIRITUAL EYES AND EARS :)

Here we go, God be with me:


"For the creature [and/or creation itself] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [that’s God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!

Secondly, Jesus SPOKE ONLY IN PARABLES TO THE CROUDS. He later explained what He was teaching behind closed doors to His disciples.

ALL these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in PARABLES; and without a parable speak He NOT unto them" (Matt. 13:34).

What Jesus said has extremely deep spiritual meaning, but it is not LITERAL remember that.

"It is the SPIRIT that quickens [gives life]; the FLESH PROFITS NOTHING: the words that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are life" (John 6:63)

Perhaps this will help understand the weeping of gnashing and teeth.

"…cast into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth" (Matt. 13:42-43).

What Jesus is talking about is the SECOND DEATH. THE LAKE OF FIRE.

"…Let God be TRUE [Who says He "WILL save ALL MANKIND"], but every man a LIAR [who says He WILL NOT "save ALL MANKIND"]!

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:14-15) and "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death,[b/]" (Rev. 21:8).

So even death and hell[Hades/Shoel] will be cast into this Lake of fire. What is it? It is GOD. God is the FIRE. He will burn out all INPURITIES OUT OF EVERY SINGLE PERSON.

"Beloved, think it NOT STRANGE concerning the FIERY trial which is to try you, as though some STRANGE thing happened unto you" (I Pet. 4:12).

"I indeed baptize you with water unto REPENTANCE: but He that comes after me is mightier than I, Whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, AND WITH FIRE" (Matt. 3:11).

"For EVERY ONE [sinner and saint] shall be salted with FIRE" (Mark 9:49).

That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it [your faith] be TRIED IN THE FIRE, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ" (I Pet. 1:7).

"Every man’s work [including believers]
shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed BY FIRE, and the FIRE shall try every man’s work of what sort it is[/b]. If any man’s work abide which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE" (I Cor. 3:13-15).

"And of the angels He says, Who makes His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of FIRE"(Heb. 1:7).

"Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing you shall heap coals of FIRE on his head" (Rom. 12:20).

"But who may abide the day of His coming? And who shall stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s FIRE, and like fullers’ soap" (Malachi 3:2).

Remmember Matt, it said in the FURNACE OF FIRE there will be wailing and gnasshing of teeth. Look who is that Furnace, look at who IS THE FIRE.

"From above has He sent FIRE into my bones…" (Lamentations 1:13).

"Is not My word like as a FIRE? saith the Lord" (Jer. 23:29).

"For in My jealousy and in the FIRE of My wrath have I spoken" (Ezek. 38;19).

"…for all the earth shall be devoured with the FIRE of my jealousy" (Zeph. 3:8).

"For our God is a CONSUMING FIRE!"(Heb. 12:29)!

What is this fire, what is this furnace, who is the REFINERS FIRE? WHO PURIFIES WITH BRIMSTONE AND FIRE? OUR GOD. GOD IS THE CONSUMING FIRE.

And are these non-believers judged differently from believers who are "revealed, tried, salted and baptized IN FIRE?" Just HOW are these non-believers judged in the book of Revelation? How are the "...fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars..." JUDGED? Answer: "... In the lake WHICH BURNS WITH FIRE ..." (Rev. 21:8)!

I hope you are starting to see a deeper spiritual understanding to what Gods FIRE is really about, and what the lake WHICH BURNS WITH FIRE is all about.

"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come into the KNOWLEDGE of the truth" (I Tim. 2:4).

Jesus didn't come to save a small group of sinners,that is only a small part of it.

"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent [Gk: apostello, to send out on a mission—commission] TO BE THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD"(I John 4:14)

Maybe God doesn’t want the whole world to be saved?

"Who WILL have all men to be saved" (I Tim. 2:4).

Second witness:

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who is the Saviour of ALL MEN, especially [but not exclusively] of those who believe" (I Tim. 4:10).

Doesn’t God will that most of humanity will eternally perish in the lake of fire?

"The Lord…is NOT WILLING that ANY should perish [eternally]…" (I Peter. 3:9).

"And I, if I be lifted up [on the cross] from the earth, will draw ALL MEN UNTO ME" (John 12:32).

But doesn’t the whole world need first to have their sins atoned for?

"And He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for our’s only, but also for THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD" (I John 2:2).

Second witness:

"The next day John sees Jesus coming unto him, and says, Behold the Lamb of God, which TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD" (John 1:29).

Hasn’t the Church proven by their interpretation of the "lake of fire" that it is "impossible" to save all mankind?

"Who then CAN be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE"

But surely everyone will have to acknowledge the RISEN Jesus Christ as their Lord and their Jesus [Jehovah-SAVIOUR] before they can ever be saved, so when does that happen?

"That at the name of Jesus [Jehovah-Saviour—THEIR Saviour] EVERY knee should bow, in heaven, and in earth, and under the earth; and that EVERY tongue should confess [‘That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God has raised Him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED, Rom. 10:9)] that Jesus Christ [The Christ that God ‘raised from the dead.’ Christ was already ‘RISEN’ when this was written in Phil. 2:11] is Lord [‘Lord’ means ‘master’—acknowledging Christ as Master of their lives], to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 2:10-11).

"To wit that God was in Christ, reconciling THE WORLD unto Himself, NOT imputing [reckoning] THEIR TRESPASSES [SINS] AGAINST THEM" (II Cor. 5:19).


"For THIS is GOOD AND ACCEPTABLE in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have ALL men [What percentage? Five percent? Fifty percent?] ALL men to be saved..." (I Tim. 2:3-4).

Now you might say to yourself, Well God is just repeating this over and over because He just wishes it would happen, or He just wnats it to happen but Hes not gonna force it too happen. WRONG, HE WILL HAVE IT HAPPEN.

Remember the former things of old: for I am GOD, and there is none else; I am GOD, and there is none like Me. Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel SHALL STAND, and WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE [as in I Tim. 2:4 and everywhere else]:

Calling a ravenous bird from the east [Cyrus?], the man that executes my counsel [just as the king of Assyria] from a far country: yea, I have SPOKEN IT [as in I Tim. 2:4 and everywhere else] I WILL ALSO BRING IT TO PASS [as also in saving all mankind]; I have PURPOSED IT [as also in saving all mankind] I WILL ALSO DO IT" (Isaiah 46:9-11).

"So shall my WORD be that goes forth OUT OF MY MOUTH [just as in I Tim. 2:4 and everywhere else] it shall NOT return into me void, but it SHALL ACCOMPLISH THAT WHICH I PLEASE, and it SHALL PROSPER IN THE THING WHERETO I SENT IT" (Isaiah 55:11).

"God is NOT a man, that He should LIE [do we think God LIES when He says that He WILL save all mankind in I Tim. 2:4?]; neither the son of man, that He should repent: hath He said, and shall He not DO IT? Or has He spoken [as in I Tim. 2:4 and many other places], and shall He not MAKE IT GOOD?" (Numbers 23:19).

Well? Those of you who contend with your Maker: "Hath God SAID" in I Tim. 2:4 that He "WILL have all men to be saved?" Well then, "SHALL HE NOT DO IT?" (Num. 23:19). Has "He [God] SPOKEN" in I Tim. 2:4 and many other places, that He "…WILL have all men to be saved?" Well then, "…shall He NOT MAKE IT GOOD?" (Num. 23:19).

All these Scriptures make it sound as if the Church has many worship practices that are nothing but the philosophies, commandments, and traditions of men rather than Scripture.

"Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men…Full well you reject the commandments of God, [like: ‘LOVE YOUR ENEMIES’] that you may keep your OWN TRADITION" (Mark 7:7 & 9).


God Bless and may He open up your eyes to see.

P.S. All this can be found in your bible, or in rays articles :)
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Cy

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A little confused
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2006, 02:28:43 PM »

lilitalienboi16,

What a fabulous summary of "The Lake Of Fire" Article!!

I'd like to keep a copy for small group studies, as Ray's articles are so long they can't easily be used for that purpose, but this is a nice balance between content and length.

-Cy
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zander

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A little confused
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2006, 02:32:33 PM »

i msn'd with Mark a few hours ago and he understands this concept much more now.
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