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Author Topic: lose God  (Read 2968 times)

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ez2u

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lose God
« on: April 17, 2008, 12:52:00 AM »

can a person lose God?  peggy
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Robin

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Re: lose God
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2008, 05:39:47 AM »

I hold onto these verses.


Psalm 139
 1O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me.

 2Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.

 3Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.

 4For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.

 5Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.

 6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.

 7Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

 8If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

 9If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

 10Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

 11If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.

 12Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

 13For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

 14I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

 15My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

 16Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

 17How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

 18If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

Romans 8
35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

 36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

 37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

 38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.




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David

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Re: lose God
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2008, 08:18:50 AM »

Ray gave a Bible study on this subject not too long ago.
Here's the link http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2641.0.html
It's near the bottom of the page entitled "Can we lose Gods spirit and eonian life."
Here's the link to the transcript if you prefer to read it. http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7047.0.html

Be blessed
David.
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phazel

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Re: lose God
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2008, 10:41:52 AM »

can a person lose God?  peggy


Your question brings something to mind.   Is it within our power to keep God in the first place?

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me if ever the Father Who sends Me should not be drawing him. And I shall be raising him in the last day."


Could God one day be "all in all"  if you (Peggy) lost him? 

1Corinthians 15:28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.






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Kat

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Re: lose God
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2008, 10:57:32 AM »


Hi Peggy,  

First of all you have to know God to lose Him, and this is not even talking about the many called.  The called are not given the Holy Spirit, it is the chosen.  But of those few given His Spirit not all keep it.  Just look at the parable of the sower, it shows some of the way to lose it.

Mat 13:3  Then He spoke many things to them in parables, saying: "Behold, a sower went out to sow.
Mat 13:4  And as he sowed, some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds came and devoured them.

So here is a person that has his eyes opened, but not for long, here is the explanation of this verse.

Mat 13:19  When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.

Okay there are more that receive His Spirit.

Mat 13:5  Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth.
Mat 13:6  But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away.

And here are the verses that explain what happened to them.

Mat 13:20  But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
Mat 13:21  yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Mat 13:22  Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

Mat 13:7  And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them.

Mat 13:22  Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

Mat 13:8  But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Mat 13:23  But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."

Mat 13:9  He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"

So I would say yes you can lose God.  But understand these were never destined to be the Elect and to endure to the end.  But we don't know who will endure to the end and who won't.
Here is a excerpt from the transcript that David mentioned.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7047.0.html -------

See Paul was in the contest, then he could be rejected.

(YLT) 1 Cor 9:27  but I chastise my body, and bring it into servitude, lest by any means, having preached to others--I myself may become disapproved.

So while you are doing right you are approved, qualified, your in the race.  But if you give up or you turn or you just sin willfully, willingly, knowingly hate your brother, then it’s gone.  It can happen.  Maybe I just need to explain why is that so.

Because the flesh is weak.  Know how much spiritual stuff we know, well we are still very very weak.  If we knew we didn’t have to persevere, guess what?  Maybe most of the time or at least some of the time… we wouldn’t.  Maybe sometimes you would try to resist the temptation to go out with another woman, if you were married, but not all the time, sometimes you might give in.  So He doesn’t tell us.

That’s the thing I learned a long time ago, probably at least eight years ago.  The verse that set that off to me was where it says Christ knows those that are His.
 
John 10:14  I am the good shepherd; and I know mine own…

Well what does that mean?  Christ knows those that are His.  I get from that, that we don’t know, we don’t.
 
--------------------------------------------------
But we should not give up hope, because we could be among those few.  It is worth all the effort we put in this struggle to be one of His.
Here is another excerpt.
---------------------------------------------------

Now I have read you from Peter, which is to me, it is a very inspiring Scripture.  Because we are not left totally in the dark.  He is like, well it’s Que Sera Sera - maybe you will, maybe you won’t.  Now here are some of these promises.  Peter says;

2 Peter 1:4  Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
v. 5  And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
v. 6  And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
v. 7  And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity (love).
v. 8  For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

v. 10  Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for IF (there that little word “if” again) ye do these things (but here is the consolation, here is the inspiration, the hope and assurance…), ye shall never fall:

Now that’s pretty good.  So all these things Paul is talking about here, I bring it into subjection, I bind it, I turn myself into a slave for Christ, lest I myself should be rejected or turned away or unapproved or disqualified.  But if we “do these things.”

No matter how hard these things are they are benefits, all of this doing of this stuff is called OVERCOMING.  I have a lot of stuff to overcome yet.  

------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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indianabob

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Re: lose God
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2008, 09:32:18 AM »

I agree with all that you have written thus far Kat,

but since God is able to create circumstances that will motivate our choices and direct our path.
why aren't the ones Christ knows are his going to be elected even though they were not as eager
as others?  Isn't it still about God having the power to purify us by whatever means He chooses?

Paul said he had to beat his own body to keep it UNDER, but he also noted that God gave him a
thorn in the flesh to keep him in the frame of mind to seek strength from God and to repent often.
God wasn't going to LET Paul fail..  ?  ?  Was He?

God wasn't going to LET Jesus fail ! !

I would like some additional clarification on this aspect.

Thank you, Indianabob
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Craig

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Re: lose God
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2008, 09:55:33 AM »

Quote
God wasn't going to LET Paul fail..  ?  ?  Was He?

No he was not, but the important point is Paul did not know for sure.  He had the great hope and said he ran the good race but in the end it is in the Fathers hand and we must endure and fight the good fight to be found approved.

Craig
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indianabob

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Re: lose God
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2008, 10:37:37 AM »

Thank you Craig,

You are correct of course, but couldn't this appear like free will at work to the newbie?
Couldn't a person think that even though we don't have free will, that in the end God could just give up on us and find us not suitable to the first resurrection?
Of course God is yet sovereign and His will shall be done, but do you see where the question arises?

I'm more inclined to think that God will arrange circumstances for me as he apparently did for Paul, such that I will finish the course set before me even if he has to poke me with a stick all the way to the end.  This is not my doctrine or dogma, I'm just voicing my questions and thoughts that I have picked up from others on the forum or out of my own imagination.

Thanks for any additional comments.

Indianabob
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Kat

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Re: lose God
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2008, 12:22:28 PM »


Hi Bob,

Well what it seems to me is that there are those who are the Elect, chosen from the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4), they will not fail. 
Now there are those who will have their eyes opened to some of this truth and even be among the Elect, but they are not the Elect.  They will for many various reason fall away as in the parable, they were never going to endure to the end.  Do not we have tares that look just like the wheat?  They will be among the Elect and I they do learn the Truths, but one is not aware that they are a tare and are not the Elect and will not be in the first resurrection  :-\ 

That is why this is likened to a race, we can not rest on our laurels, we have to keep running.  And how do we know if we are one of the Elect?  If we never stop running until the end and we make it to the Finish line.  But of course we won't know for sure we will make it to the finish line until we actually do.  Paul only knew he made it right at the very end, just as he was coming to the finish line, because his death was near.

2Tim 4:6  For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand.
v. 7  I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
v. 8  Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

It is not given for us to know for sure we are the Elect, God knows human nature to good to give us that kind of knowledge.

2Peter 3:17  You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;

Heb 3:12  Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

As Paul states earlier in his ministry we must keep running the race, so that we will obtain the prize.

1Cor 9:24  Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it.
v. 25  And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown.
v. 26  Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air.
v. 27  But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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winner08

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Re: lose God
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2008, 09:59:06 PM »

Kat you mention earlyer that the elect is directed by the Holy Spirit. Are the many being called have they got the  holy spirit directing them. I thought to even understand Ray's teachings, you would have to have the Spirit directing you. You would have to have the Spirit in you in order to understand. Is this not correct?

                                                      Thank you

                                                         Darren
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Kat

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Re: lose God
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2008, 10:34:16 PM »


Hi Darren,

I think that is one of the points that Ray makes in the Bible study ' Can we lose God's Spirit and eonoian life.'  Yes God does give His Spirit to those that have their eyes open, but they can lose it, or it can leave them.   But if this happens of course it was always intended to be that way.  Because the Elect are those that endure to the end, God will make sure they do and as Jesus said no one can snatch them from Him.

John 10:27  My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
v. 28  And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
v. 29  My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

Here is an excerpt from the transcript.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7047.0.html ---------

Now here is the point I want to make, spirit is life and life is spirit.  Now back to verse 15. 

Can we lose out… well we read the Scripture that if you sin willfully - willingly there is no more sacrifice for you.  Now look at this verse, many people probably never really saw it before. 

1 John 3:15  Whosoever hates his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal (eonian or age lasting) life abiding (the Greek is “staying or “REMAINING”)  in him.

So the Greek is staying or remaining.  Now if you just read that without all the background that I’m giving you, then you get the feeling that, well he won't be given God’s abiding life.  No, he already has it.  The only way something cannot stay in you or not remain in you, is if it’s in you.  Do you follow that?  It’s in you. 

He’s not talking to Barbarians here or infidels, he’s talking to the congregation who have the spirit of God.  But he says if you hate your brother the spirit of God will no longer stay with you, it will no longer be in you.  If the Spirit of God is not in you, you are no longer His.  Then you are going to the judgment.  That’s just how simple that is.  All through these Scriptures if you read carefully, maybe it doesn’t have it just like this, but this is just a poor translation.  But if you read Concordant and Rotherham and all, they will tell you to ‘stay’ - ‘remain.’  It means to remain, but it won’t remain.  You see it’s there, but it’s coming out. 
--------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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winner08

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Re: lose God
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2008, 05:13:48 PM »

Kat: That to me has to be one of the most powerful scripture in the bible.
 John 10: 27-29. This says it all.

                                        Peace Darren
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mrl1970

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Re: lose God
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2008, 05:31:02 PM »

How would one know if the spirit of God has left them or can they?
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Kat

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Re: lose God
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2008, 07:04:53 PM »


Hi mrl1970,

I think the way you know you have His Spirit, is when the Bible opens up to you and you just can't get enough of reading and learning as He reveals this Truth to you.  Then you are the one "who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit."

Well maybe if you find that you no longer understand or believe these truths, that's when "the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart."

Or if when you read BT, you get it, but soon lose interest, wouldn't that be like "he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while."

Maybe you are too busy with "the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful."
(Matt. 13)

All these things seem like they are real life occurances that are happening now with people.

So many people come here introduce themselves and say how glad they are to fine BT and others of like mind.  But sooner or later most of them seem to drift away.  I'm sure some just quite posting and are still here.  And maybe some are still studying and growing on their own and have just lost interest in the forum.  I don't know what happens to all these people.  It just seems like to me if you have His spirit you would want to stay close to others of like mind.

But that's what I am thinking, hope it helps.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: April 20, 2008, 11:14:11 PM by Kat »
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mrl1970

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Re: lose God
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2008, 10:46:38 PM »

thanks Kat
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mrl1970

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Re: lose God
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2008, 02:46:10 AM »




So many people come here introduce themselves and say how glad they are to fine BT and others of like mind.  But sooner or later most of them seem to drift away.  I'm sure some just quite posting and are still here.  And maybe some are still studying and growing on their own and have just lost interest in the forum.  I don't know what happens to all these people.  It just seems like to me if you have His spirit you would want to stay close to others of like mind.




I know i do not post very often as I usually have very little valuable to say; also usually it is better for me to listen. I'm guessing there are others that are similar.. :)
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ez2u

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Re: lose God
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2008, 03:14:53 AM »

kat  thank you for your clarity on my question.  and the others that have answered too.  peggy
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