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Author Topic: Sons Of Thunder  (Read 6271 times)

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hillsbororiver

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Sons Of Thunder
« on: April 21, 2008, 09:54:28 PM »

It is sometimes interesting to run across our Lord's sense of humor and irony, we see it in some of the sarcasm He directs toward the religious leaders of His day and also from time to time even with His own disciples.

I came across this a little while ago and although I was familiar with these verses I had never put them together before.

Check it out;


Mar 3:17  And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder:

OK, a cool name for sure but why "sons of thunder?"

Luk 9:53  And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
 
Luk 9:54  And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire4442 to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elijah did?
 
Luk 9:55  But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
 
Luk 9:56  For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

We see in Luke 9:54 the KJV has G4442 translated as fire, as we can see from Strong's (and some other Bible translations) that lightning fits in very nicely here.


 G4442
πῦρ
pur
poor
A primary word; “fire” (literally or figuratively, specifically lightning): - fiery, fire.

So here we have Jesus naming the brothers, the sons of thunder which I am sure stayed with them all their lives, not a small reminder of their willingness even enthusiasm (as they too were not yet converted) to bring swift and sure destruction rather than mercy for those who had yet to embrace Who it was in their midst.

To me it is another glimpse into the mind and the ironic humor of our Lord who also reveals our Father.

Actually I am not really sure I even want to ponder what name He might have in store for me!

His Peace to you,

Joe


« Last Edit: April 21, 2008, 10:27:12 PM by hillsbororiver »
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mharrell08

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Re: Sons Of Thunder
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2008, 11:11:51 PM »

That's pretty good Joe. One thing I wonder about with the Lord's irony is the fact that Jesus was a carpenter. Then Paul talks about in Romans 3 about Jesus "laying the foundation". And of course we know through Jesus "by whom are all things" or basically created all. I think a carpenter was a perfect "parable" for our Lord and Savior.


P.S.  For any who may not know, I mean parable as similar or like his true self not to say he wasn't literally a carpenter.


Marques
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Little Joe

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Re: Sons Of Thunder
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2008, 11:15:31 PM »

Actually I am not really sure I even want to ponder what name He might have in store for me!


Good post Joe!  I shudder the thought myself, too!  :o
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Kat

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Re: Sons Of Thunder
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2008, 12:41:04 AM »


Hi Joe,

I'm glad you showed that, because I like to get a glimpse of Jesus' personality.  I sometimes try to think what it must have been like to know Him during His life on earth.  Like Him giving James and John that nick name, it shows His wit.

Can you imagine how much the Disciples learned from being around Him everyday.  I guess every single thing He said and did had some lesson you could learn from it. 

John 21:25  And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: April 22, 2008, 12:56:30 AM by Kat »
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Martinez

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Re: Sons Of Thunder
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2008, 02:55:03 AM »

 That's really awesome Joe, thankyou so much for sharing that with us!

It really does show just how witty Christ is, and the really cool thing is, we will be like Him!
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Sons Of Thunder
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2008, 08:49:42 AM »

That's pretty good Joe. One thing I wonder about with the Lord's irony is the fact that Jesus was a carpenter. Then Paul talks about in Romans 3 about Jesus "laying the foundation". And of course we know through Jesus "by whom are all things" or basically created all. I think a carpenter was a perfect "parable" for our Lord and Savior.


P.S.  For any who may not know, I mean parable as similar or like his true self not to say he wasn't literally a carpenter.


Marques

Thank you Marques,

I agree, the earthly trade Jesus had was a perfect type/shadow of what His Spiritual fulfillment and work is. He is our Master Builder!

Actually I am not really sure I even want to ponder what name He might have in store for me!


Good post Joe!  I shudder the thought myself, too!  :o

 ;D

Hey Joe,

Yes! It is a scary thought indeed, I am quite sure it will hit home whatever it may be.


Hi Joe,

I'm glad you showed that, because I like to get a glimpse of Jesus' personality.  I sometimes try to think what it must have been like to know Him during His life on earth.  Like Him giving James and John that nick name, it shows His wit.

Can you imagine how much the Disciples learned from being around Him everyday.  I guess every single thing He said and did had some lesson you could learn from it. 

John 21:25  And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.

mercy, peace and love
Kat



Hi Kat,

Those glimpses we get of Christ's personality and wit are real treasures aren't they? I have meditated on what it must have been like to not only hear Him teach in public or witness the miracles but even more so during the "down time" when He was just with His disciples and they were sharing quiet time away from the multitudes. I am sure John was alluding to that when he wrote the verse you quoted, one of my very favorites in the bible.

That's really awesome Joe, thankyou so much for sharing that with us!

It really does show just how witty Christ is, and the really cool thing is, we will be like Him!

Amen Martinez!

You are very welcome by the way...

Thanks for all of your responses.

His Peace to you,

Joe
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Akira329

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Re: Sons Of Thunder
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2008, 11:54:11 PM »

Thats so amazing Joe!!!!!
I think it would have been so cool to hang with Jesus.
Everything that comes out of his mouth would be a lesson to learn about yourself!!
I wonder what he would have called me?? ;D
I love thinking of him like this in such a personal way.
Its like you knew he was definitely a friend to them, like when your close friends give you nicknames,
some you would not prefer but indeed terms of endearment!!

Antaiwan
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"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
-Albert Einstein
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
- Jesus

Ray-Ray

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Re: Sons Of Thunder
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2008, 12:08:37 AM »

Hi Joe, maybe those guy,s were harley rider,s ,hope to see ya,ll in sept. peace ,Ray-Ray
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Akira329

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Re: Sons Of Thunder
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2008, 12:11:27 AM »

Hi Joe, maybe those guy,s were harley rider,s ,hope to see ya,ll in sept. peace ,Ray-Ray

Hey Ray Ray I don't know if you remember me but it would be good to see you at the conference in Sept.!!

Antaiwan
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"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
-Albert Einstein
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
- Jesus

hillsbororiver

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Re: Sons Of Thunder
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2008, 08:33:48 AM »

Thats so amazing Joe!!!!!
I think it would have been so cool to hang with Jesus.
Everything that comes out of his mouth would be a lesson to learn about yourself!!
I wonder what he would have called me?? ;D
I love thinking of him like this in such a personal way.
Its like you knew he was definitely a friend to them, like when your close friends give you nicknames,
some you would not prefer but indeed terms of endearment!!

Antaiwan


Hi Antaiwan,

Yes that is exactly what I was trying to bring out, what an incredible experience it would have been to even hear the casual remarks of our Lord and witness the humor and insights He would share with His apostles off the record so to speak.

The scripture Kat quoted earlier in the thread sums it up perfectly, it is one of my very favorite verses.

John 21:25  And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.

His Peace to you,

Joe
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Sons Of Thunder
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2008, 09:27:33 AM »

Hi Joe, maybe those guy,s were harley rider,s ,hope to see ya,ll in sept. peace ,Ray-Ray

  :D

Yes, Ray Ray, that would have worked for sure!

I will be in Nashville and am looking forward to seeing you and Antaiwan again as well as everyone else who are able to attend, the Conferences are always an incredible spiritual recharge.

Peace,

Joe
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Roy Monis

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Re: Sons Of Thunder
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2008, 04:20:16 PM »

Hi! Joe

I know or have a very good idea what He is going to name me, but I'm not goon tell you. It's not nice cause I'm still sinning you see and He doesn't like that.

Interesting thought anyway, I will try to figure it out but not with my brain the little voice within will definitely have to direct me; left, right, forward centre. I'll let you know when I get to the end.

God bless Joe

Love in Christ.

Roy
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vanityandvexation

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Re: Sons Of Thunder
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2008, 01:50:55 AM »

P.S.  For any who may not know, I mean parable as similar or like his true self not to say he wasn't literally a carpenter.


Marques


What if he were not "literally" a carpenter? What if Paul were not "literally" a tent builder?
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mharrell08

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Re: Sons Of Thunder
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2008, 01:58:56 AM »


What if he were not "literally" a carpenter? What if Paul were not "literally" a tent builder?

Mark 6:3

Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary...

Acts 18:3

And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers


Mark and Luke (author of Acts) both recognized that Jesus & Paul were a carpenter and tent maker respectively. I believe the scriptures that they both were of these crafts but also that there was a spiritual meaning to both occupations of the two. So yes, I believe they were literal.
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vanityandvexation

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Re: Sons Of Thunder
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2008, 02:12:43 AM »


What if he were not "literally" a carpenter? What if Paul were not "literally" a tent builder?

Mark 6:3

Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary...

Acts 18:3

And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers


Sure, but Jesus (the Word) only speaks in parables...right?  So what significance does any biblical man's supposed "literal" occupation have when it was meant as a spiritual allegory? And if it were meant as allegory for spiritual reasons, who is to say they really built physical buildings?
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mharrell08

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Re: Sons Of Thunder
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2008, 10:49:20 AM »

Vanityandvextation,

Forgive me, but I don't really get what you are trying to point out. Did you see this from my original post:

I think a carpenter was a perfect "parable" for our Lord and Savior.

Marques

The "significance" of understanding the literal is to understand the spiritual truth. How can you have any allegory without the symbol from which it came from?You cannot have symbolism without a symbol. That's what this thread was started from, John & James being (literally) named "sons of thunder" and the spiritual allegory of its meaning. Hope that helps.

Marques
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Sons Of Thunder
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2008, 08:08:14 PM »

Last month when I started this topic my focus was on the humorous way the Lord addressed James and John which was in a sense a two edged sword, some very cutting humor indeed, having been on the receiving end of such a (truthful) sarcasm myself I can attest to it's economical yet effective result. It can really open your eyes to your true motives and mindset, cutting through any self righteousness or justification.

As I was searching for more examples of this I came across Jonah and while it did not provoke a laugh or chuckle on my part I did see that Jonah was actually of the same (carnal) mind that James and John were guilty of, it does not say that James and/or John were angry with Jesus for calling them on their lack of compassion but it would be safe to say at the least they were embarrassed maybe ashamed, check out this chapter from the Book of Jonah;

(For more background read Chapter 3 as well)


Jonah 4

Jonah's Anger at the Lord 's Compassion

 1 But Jonah was greatly displeased and became angry. 2 He prayed to the LORD, "O LORD, is this not what I said when I was still at home? That is why I was so quick to flee to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity. 3 Now, O LORD, take away my life, for it is better for me to die than to live."
 4 But the LORD replied, "Have you any right to be angry?"

 5 Jonah went out and sat down at a place east of the city. There he made himself a shelter, sat in its shade and waited to see what would happen to the city. 6 Then the LORD God provided a vine and made it grow up over Jonah to give shade for his head to ease his discomfort, and Jonah was very happy about the vine. 7 But at dawn the next day God provided a worm, which chewed the vine so that it withered. 8 When the sun rose, God provided a scorching east wind, and the sun blazed on Jonah's head so that he grew faint. He wanted to die, and said, "It would be better for me to die than to live."

 9 But God said to Jonah, "Do you have a right to be angry about the vine?"
      "I do," he said. "I am angry enough to die."

 10 But the LORD said, "You have been concerned about this vine, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight. 11 But Nineveh has more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and many cattle as well. Should I not be concerned about that great city?"

Once again we can relate this type of attitude to the proponents of an eternal hell and the anticipation even joy some "Christians" take in the thought of their enemies being tortured and destroyed, where is the compassion? Where is the concern for humanity?

Look at how Jonah makes a shelter for himself to have a comfortable place to watch the city be destroyed, God even makes it even more accommodating by this vine He grows to provide more shade, but as the day approaches this vine is attacked and overcome by a worm (serpent?) Jonah's comfort level is severely reduced to the point of wanting to die. Can we see any connection to what some believe awaits most of humanity? Even taking a morbid and perverted pleasure in the idea?

Perhaps we can even take this a step further and ask ourselves if we relish the idea of the Lake Of Fire as being the place where "God will get them." Would God find this sentiment pleasing to Him?

If we search the scriptures we find throughout His Word that He is indeed a merciful God desiring (and creating) merciful Sons and Daughters, He will not fail.


Hosea 6:6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings

Micah 7:18 Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy.

Zechariah 7:9 This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another.'

Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.

James 2:12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom,13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

Peace,

Joe
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Stevernator

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Re: Sons Of Thunder
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2008, 09:27:43 PM »

Excellent post Joe. The vengeful attitude of those you mentioned is also similar to the elder brother in the parable of the prodigal son, the people who chose Barabas over Jesus and the servant whose large debt was forgiven but who punished his debtor.

     "But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

 21"The son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.[a]'

 22"But the father said to his servants, 'Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let's have a feast and celebrate. 24For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.

 25"Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. 26So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. 27'Your brother has come,' he replied, 'and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.'

 28"The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29But he answered his father, 'Look! All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!'

 31" 'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' "
Luke 15:11-32

What a wonderful illustration of the character of God.
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ez2u

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Re: Sons Of Thunder
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2008, 09:56:15 PM »

Joe  we are blind and deaf  Jonah was a advance man in the Lord Look what God had given him the ability to go to a city and speak the Word of the Lord and still the carnal nature pops its ugly head up.  I know a little about that.  Earlier on  I was going to a pretty active church  for a few months  and I attended the ladies meeting.  Which there was an encouragement to bring all the money you could into the store house, which their church was assigned to be the place to do so.  I was at the meeting and we were singing and praises  Jesus  my hands lifted up and my voice when the Spirit of the Lord spoke to me to speak and tell them not to do this.  I said no Lord  if I do this they will kick me out of this church, and just then it was like God left me and I had no reason to raise my hands to the Lord.  I felt empty.  So I sat down and thought for a minute about this situation and decided  to do what I was told.  I stood up and spoke the Words the Lord Jesus  Christ gave me and all knew it was God.  Every one rushed to the front and repented and declared God had spoken.  About a week later I was asked to find a different church.  Peggy
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Sons Of Thunder
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2008, 10:03:42 AM »

Hi Steve,

That was a great observation on the Prodigal Son, his brother had no mercy nor did he have any joy in the fact that his younger brother was not only alive but restored, we do see this theme intertwined though the bible, those who recognize the errors being made by those around them and pray (or hope) for their destruction and then we have others (Abraham & Moses come to mind) who pray and even contend with God for their (the people) deliverence.

I believe we know what God prefers and rewards.

Peace,

Joe
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