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Author Topic: Spiritual Truth #8  (Read 2593 times)

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mharrell08

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Spiritual Truth #8
« on: April 22, 2008, 02:59:23 PM »

Hello All:

This post is in regards to probably my favorite paper from Ray: 12 God-Given Truths to Understand His Word (http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm)

I wanted to discuss truth #8. It is basically about the Old Testament or Old Covenant was for "our admonition". This one sentence has been steady in my head:  "If you cannot identify yourself, personally, with all the stories and accounts in the Old Testament, then you have not even begun to overcome all the carnality that you are." My first thought was WOW! I have not read the entire Old Testament only from Genesis to 2 Chronicles with Job, Isaiah, Malachi, and some Proverbs & Psalms thrown in. Would anyone like to share how they have seen themselves in the different stories and accounts from the OT?

I'll start first since it is my post. From studying the scriptures and from Ray's teaching, I know that if I were in Adam's place, I would have done the exact same thing. Adam was "yet carnal" and as we all know from scripture that is one that cannot be subject to His law (Rom 8:7). I could not have overcome in that same situation as Adam could not either with a carnal mind. Also with Eve, even though I am a man, I can identify with her because I was once deceived by Satan (following the church instead of God) and also I have and continue to struggle with "lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life (1 John 2:16).

Well, I don't want to be long-winded...does anyone else have anything? I believe this can help all of us as our different accounts can help others understand and see themselves in the OT. Thanks
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UncleBeau

  • Guest
Re: Spiritual Truth #8
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2008, 04:20:15 PM »

Hmm....I'll tell you one person in the OT I know I could have identified with all too well....Abram's (Abraham) wife, Sarai (Sarah) When she was told she would conceive a child and she just flat out didn't believe God. What was odd was that she DID believe that Abraham would be the Father of many nations (or at least she followed her husband that far), but then she started using her "common" sense, her foolish carnal wisdom. Before I was drawn out (or as I'd like to put it, "spanked on the rear end by God and dragged out kicking and screaming") I could believe things that "made sense" to me, but how much more? But why stop there so to make myself seem like I'm not a sinning machine and I just lacked faith.
The ONLY reasons why I haven't done so many more horrific things than mass murderers and rapists, torturing, mutilating, and utterly evil people...is lack of opportunity. I wasn't given the circumstances to make me live or think that way. If I had, I'd love it. That's why people that do such evil do it, because they love it, whether or not they care to admit it. Not only that, it's EASY! It's just so easy to just do whatever you want, especially for those who think they have a "free will". When you're your own god, who's gonna stop you? You're calling the shots.
That's how I sympathise with the OT sinners. I didn't fear God, not one bit. As a christian, I had no wisdom at all. Only just for a year or so have I truly known what it is to fear God and what He must do with the stubborn children's circumstances.
But why I'm blessed is this: Everything anyone in the Scriptures has sinned against God with is for MY admonition, MY benefit, MY fear of God. Just think how those people will be blessed at the resurrection to know that the chosen of God learned from THEIR mistakes.
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Vangie

  • Guest
Re: Spiritual Truth #8
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2008, 04:29:36 PM »

That last statement--WOW--how profound Beau!  Thank you so much!

In Christ,
Vangie
« Last Edit: April 22, 2008, 04:31:11 PM by Vangie »
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winner08

  • Guest
Re: Spiritual Truth #8
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2008, 04:46:22 PM »

unfortunately I never read the whole OT or the NT. For 20yr I have gotten my teachings through others. This does not mean I haven't read some of the Bible. Since I have been reading Ray's teachings, I have been reading alot more of the Bible. I started at Gen. but then I get distracted. I would pick up latter and start on the NT but the same thing would happen. This is something I'm working on. I do have alot of discussions on the Bible with a close friend of mine. I do look up alot of scripture. But I can not quote one chapter and verse. Except (nope) not even that one!! :( :-\ Man that's sad.

                                                  Peace to you and yours


                                                         Darren
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Martinez

  • Guest
Re: Spiritual Truth #8
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2008, 07:03:37 PM »

unfortunately I never read the whole OT or the NT. For 20yr I have gotten my teachings through others. This does not mean I haven't read some of the Bible. Since I have been reading Ray's teachings, I have been reading alot more of the Bible. I started at Gen. but then I get distracted. I would pick up latter and start on the NT but the same thing would happen. This is something I'm working on. I do have alot of discussions on the Bible with a close friend of mine. I do look up alot of scripture. But I can not quote one chapter and verse. Except (nope) not even that one!! :( :-\ Man that's sad.

                                                  Peace to you and yours


                                                         Darren


Yeah Darren, I can realate to that.

I haven't read the bible right the way through. I've tried, but I always got angry or fearful or confused so I would give up for a while, plus I never knew where to start, it's not exactly a small book, and plus it's three times thicker than it's mass!

Just remember Darren, God is sovereign, and you have read exactly as much of His word as He wants you to have at this time and the same goes for me and for everyone!

It's not how much you have been given that counts, it's what you do with what you have been given.
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Spiritual Truth #8
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2008, 07:49:28 PM »

A lovely thread mharrell08

I certainly can relate to the more infamous characters so I am most thankful that at least or should I say AT MOST, I have the same name thankfully, as one of the more knoble of women of the OT :-\ and the other with the same name was most simple.

Peace to you

Arcturus/Deborah
« Last Edit: April 22, 2008, 07:51:58 PM by Arcturus »
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rjsurfs

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Re: Spiritual Truth #8
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2008, 10:07:24 PM »

Hi mharrell08,

I agree with Arc... great thread.

I at first mused at you stating that "12 God-Given Truths to Understand His Word" was your favorite paper by Ray.  I remember the entire first year, at least, that I was reading Bible-Truths that this paper was very difficult for me to understand... so I'm glad to see it is your favorite!  I do really enjoy this paper now too.

Coincidentally, I have started to share this paper with my eighty-plus year old parents... we are going over Truth #1 now but I connect much of what you say about #8 and the OT with Truth #1... in that first comes the physical... and then the spiritual. 

Elsewhere Ray has stated:
"We are all born with a physical [carnal] mind.  It is possible to keep physical [carnal] laws with a physical carnal mind (Paul did it to near perfection when he was Saul!).  But one CANNOT keep Godís spiritual laws with a physical carnal mind!

"Because the carnal [natural physical] mind is enmity [deep seated HATRED] AGAINST God; for it is NOT subject to the [spiritual] law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom. 8:7).

"For to be carnally minded is DEATH; but to be spiritually minded is LIFE and peace" (Rom. 8:6)."

So to your original topic.. what does all of this mean to me?  For me, this has so much to do with "the beast within".  Ray goes into this in detail in the "Myth of Freewill" but quoting from part XIV of the Lake of Fire:
"God has always allowed men to believe that they are able of and by themselves (by their supposed phantom "free" will) to love God and be obedient to His laws. Despite Godís plethora of testimonies to the contrary, theologians and philosophers alike have taught mankind that they are indeed ABLE TO CHOOSE and, ABLE TO DO and to carry out that choice, because they have the "free will" within them to do so. What they have within them is a "beast" that is no more able to choose and obey God than any literal beast of the field."

So, in countless place throughout the OT I see this truth given to us.  Now this is just what I am connecting with in regards to the quote you pointed out... there is much more to it and I know others see things just as powerful for them... but reading through the OT I connect with the lives of Pharaoh, Joseph and his brothers, Job, the entire nation of Israel, etc... in that these are stories that show us God is all in all... and all men experience this physical first, and then the spiritual.  Few will experience it in this life... but eventually all will, in the second death.

I don't think you have to read the entire OT... I certainly encourage anyone to do so... but it is all pointing in the same direction.  No matter where you look it says the same thing.  God is all in all.

Bobby
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carol v

  • Guest
Re: Spiritual Truth #8
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2008, 12:13:48 AM »

Great thread. Darren and Martinez -- you might consider getting a "read the Bible in a year" schedule and following that. I divides it up in small amounts that won't overwhelm you. There are plenty on the internet for free and there is even a Bible organized that way. And if you skip some days, don't worry.

JUDGES -- I just went through Judges and related to every tale. I am the Israelites. I have made the same mistakes over and over again. God has to chastise me. Send me into slavery in some way. Then He gives me some relief. Then we start all over.

Things have gotten better since I saw God's truths but when I look back on my life, this is how I see it. I have quit repeating some of my mistakes but others just want to hang on..uh,oh...here come da judge!

Carol
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Martinez

  • Guest
Re: Spiritual Truth #8
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2008, 02:20:43 AM »


Ha LOL Carol!

I don't have that problem anymore since I have started to understand what it says a lot more now, in fact just try and keep me out of that book now!

Actually, I wouldn't mind getting an audio bible so that I can keep listening after I get to tired to focus anymore.
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kweli

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Re: Spiritual Truth #8
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2008, 09:06:32 AM »

I can identify with Jonah. Much as I try and try to do my thing and go my way, He always sends a huge (sea) monster to gobble me up and keep me on track His Will. I'm done trying to free will my way out of the monster. I only hope my three days in there arent but 3 000 years :-[ :-[ :-[
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ciy

  • Guest
Re: Spiritual Truth #8
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2008, 07:46:01 PM »

I know all truths are important, but this is a truth that really stays front and center with me.  After many years of studying and buying books on the physical finds of biblical historic proofs in the form of relics and archaelogical digs, I now have come to the point that I realize that whether anything in the OT actually happened in the flesh or not is irrevelant to me.

It all happened for my admonition.

For me to see the spiritual significance and realizing in my being that I am being called by God and given a rare ability to see what is unseen.  To realize this bible or scriptures are given to us to deceive the world in its carnality and to bring to truth those who are given spiritual eyes and ears to see the Words that Daniel could not see.  To be able to compare spiritual with spiritual.  To understand that "the Words that Christ is speaking to us are spirit and life"  When we know that they are spirit then and only then can we have life.
 
Now I see that I am Adam, Eve, Abram, Abraham, Issac, Ishmael, Jacob, Essau, Joseph, Joseph's brothers, Moses, Aaron, Korah, King Saul, David, Judas, Peter, John the Baptist, etc. All the way to Jesus, realizing that it is Christ in me that is the hope of glory.

Jesus is the first fruit of all who are called, chosen, and faithful, and I know that I cannot be faithful unless I can wear that coat of many colors which is being able to realize that I am seeking that mark set before me which is the anointing of Christ in me.  As long as I continue to study that physical Jesus that walked the earth 2000 years ago, I will always keep Christ separate from me.  I will have the idol in my mind of a physical man whether he is handsome or ugly it is an idol of the heart that must go before I can attain to the truth of Christ in me not out there.

God is working his plan to work out the exact way he desires for it to work out, but the little twists and turns of the journey are all for your sakes.  For my sake.  Personally.  When you realize that He is speaking directly to you. Showing you who you are and what you must go through to graduate first in this age.  Just like Robert De Niro in Taxi when he says "Are you talking to me?"  The answer is yes.  He is talking to you about you.

Be encouraged.  It is all about you and it is all working to your good.
CIY
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Spiritual Truth #8
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2008, 09:02:00 AM »

Hey CIY

Great thoughts. Here is what stands out for me and pardon me if I can just share with you a re-ordering of how I hear what you have shared...here it is quoting your observations but reassembled so to speak!, :..... I cannot be faithful unless I can wear that coat of many colors....Adam, Eve, Abram, Abraham, Issac, Ishmael, Jacob, Essau, Joseph, Joseph's brothers, Moses, Aaron, Korah, King Saul, David, Judas, Peter, John the Baptist, etc. All the way to Jesus,.... that whether anything in the OT actually happened in the flesh or not is irrevelant....

It all happened for my admonition.....He is speaking directly..yes.  He is talking"


I hear Him CIY. I hear Him. Thanks for sharing!

Peace to you
Arc :)
« Last Edit: April 27, 2008, 09:03:45 AM by Arcturus »
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ciy

  • Guest
Re: Spiritual Truth #8
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2008, 12:11:38 PM »

You got it good Arcturus.

CIY
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Roy Monis

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Re: Spiritual Truth #8
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2008, 01:25:30 PM »

Hi! "mharrell08"

Yes I would love to share with you how I see myself in OT stories but it has gotten me into a lot of trouble on this forum with sisters Arcturus and Karen. Unfortunately I saw myself in Ezekiel 3 especially. I still follow though with what I sincerely believe to be proof of my love of God in obeying His command, but I'm reluctant to share it less it causes me any more trouble.

Dreadful how misinterpreted words can lead to alienation.

I'm sorry though I'd love to share it.

God bless.

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy.
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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: Spiritual Truth #8
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2008, 02:46:54 PM »

Hello Roy,

I believe I know what you are referring to with the Ezekiel 3 reference and the original thread you started a while back. I looked back at it and can understand what you as well as the others are saying. Let's look at these scriptures:

Matt. 7:5

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye

Luke 6:42

...Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye

Matt. 5:14

Ye are the light of the world...

Matt 5:13

Ye are the salt of the earth...


I'm sorry that you took offense to "hypocrite" but I believe the others were only going off these scriptures. This was not a personal attack on you, but rather our Lord's words to each and every one of us. The most important aspect of these verses is not the use of "hypocrite" but rather casting the beam out of our own eyes and then "we shall see clearly" to cast out of our brother's eye. The most important thing is to "see clearly" which includes repentance and overcoming. This is a life long endeavor that even Ray himself is still going through. Upon the first resurrection will the "elect" be able to "clearly see" and then with Christ to lead the rest of humanity to "see clearly" through judgement. But as of now we are salt & the light of the world. Neither of these qualities makes a lot of noise if you catch my drift.  ;)

Remember all the OT scriptures are for our admonition but also have been fulfilled in Christ.

Luke 24:44-45

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures


It may be a good question to ask Ray if you require further understanding. But to get back to the original Spiritual Truth#8 thread, I do see how Ezekiel is applied to one's life so you make an excellent observation. And maybe "how" it is applied to your life is where you can seek His guidance. Hope this helps and if not, PM me and we can talk some more.


Marques
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