John the Baptist Offended?

[Matt]

 Matthew 11:3 states when John was in prison, he sent two of his disciples to Jesus with this question,
" Are thou he that should come, or do we look for another?"

Was he being sarcastic?  He, of all people knew who Jesus was (even when he was in the womb).

4Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
5The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
6And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

Was John offended at Jesus?

Matt

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Matthew,

Perhaps John did not really know what Christ's mission really was, could it be that he also thought Jesus was going to set up a physical earthly kingdom rather than a heavenly spiritual kingdom?

Was John disappointed, confused, upset, even angry at Jesus as he sat in prison? I think we sometimes think these men we read about in the scriptures were on some totally higher spiritual plane than we are, that they of themselves were able to overcome the natural, carnal emotional thinking that plague us so consistantly.

Of course the apostles reached unique spiritual heights after Pentecost and no sacrifice was too big even up to martyrdom, but the OT prophets and John the Baptist were not of the promise, they were all of the Old Covenant, the physical, ritualistic Covenant rather than the New (spiritual) Covenant.

So in light of all that in my opinion, yes, I can see that John at that point had some real doubts (as we all have suffered) and confusion about Jesus and what He was really accomplishing in His earthly ministry.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe 

[Kat]

Hi Matt,

Matthew 11:3 states when John was in prison, he sent two of his disciples to Jesus with this question,
" Are thou he that should come, or do we look for another?"

Was he being sarcastic?

Was John doubting?  Maybe.
But John had seen the Spirit of God descending on Him at His baptism, heard a voice from heaven, declaring Him the Son of God (Matt. 3:16).  John had pointed Him out to others as the Lamb of God (John 1:29).  So I wonder if it was a question John needed to hear answered so much as his disciples did.

So John sent his disciples to Jesus, didn't ask for Jesus to come to him at this grave situation he was in.  If John wasconsidering that he was about to die, maybe he was sending his disciples to Jesus with this question, so that they may be brought to assurance that Jesus was really the Messiah.  Maybe John's disciples had not been around Jesus much and upon his death John wanted his disciples to have faith in Jesus.  So John knew their seeing first hand the miracles of Jesus, v. 4 "Go and show John again those things which ye do hear and see," would have been proof enough for them.

Luke 7:23 And, happy, is he, whosoever shall not find occasion of stumbling in me! (Rotherham)

I wonder if this verse was not directed to these disciples' of John as well. Because surely Jesus was aware of what was about to happen to John and how it would effect John's disciples, who were no doubt his friends also.  They could have thought Jesus was able to save John and this could become a stumbling block for them.  But when John was killed, what did his disciples do?

Mat 14:12  Then his disciples came and took away the body and buried it, and went and told Jesus.

They went to the Jesus, I think just what John wanted them to do.

Just what I was thinking, a perspective to consider 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[chuckt]

Was John disappointed, confused, upset, even angry at Jesus as he sat in prison? I think we sometimes think these men we read about in the scriptures were on some totally higher spiritual plane than we are, that they of themselves were able to overcome the natural, carnal emotional thinking that plague us so consistantly.

This is so true!!! great reminder to all of us.

also the word ""offended""

Skandalizo 7:339,1036
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
skan-dal-id'-zo      Verb 

Definition
to put a stumbling block or impediment in the way, upon which another may trip and fall, metaph. to offend
to entice to sin to cause a person to begin to distrust and desert one whom he ought to trust and obey
to cause to fall away to be offended in one, i.e. to see in another what I disapprove of and what hinders me from acknowledging his authority to cause one to judge unfavourably or unjustly of another since one who stumbles or whose foot gets entangled feels annoyed
to cause one displeasure at a thing to make indignant to be displeased, indignant 




blessings
chuckt

[UncleBeau]

Matthew 3:11-12
11.) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12.) Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

When we look at Matthew, apparently he DID know what Jesus was to do ultimately, but as we learned from Ray, NONE of the prophets (John the Baptist was the last of the law and the prophets) understood the scriptures, and it looks like he didn't know WHEN Jesus would accomplish these things. So did Jesus spiritually baptize anyone with the Holy Ghost and with fire during the three and a half years of his ministry? Time was running short for John the Baptist's head on the chopping block and Jesus had still not fulfilled his prophecy.

After John's death and after Jesus' death and resurrection, John's prophecy still wasn't fulfilled; but it was about to be:

Acts 1:4-6
4.)And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5.)For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

As you can see, Jesus didn't baptize anyone during his life on earth.

John 4:2
2(Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

[ciy]

John 4:2
2(Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

Is this saying that Jesus baptised his disciples only?  Something to ponder.

On the John the Baptist subject, I go back to Ray's Spiritual Truth #8 and realize John is me.  The process of being saved, that Ray states is "the hardest thing we will ever do in this age", has the phase in it where you are still in bondage to the ruler of this world.  You think you have found Jesus and everything is going to be great from that moment on and every day seems to be worst than the day before.  You get to thinking is this really the truth?  Is this the true Christ?  When this happens you need encouragement and a reminder that Christ coming is spiritual food.  Christ's coming is not meat and potatoes and every comfort of this world.  The world stays the same your perspective of the world changes, but it is a process and will not be complete until you have had your head cut off so that you can then have the mind of Christ.   And this will happen over and over until the end comes.

Remember Christ is crucified in Golgotha, in the skull, which is in your head.  He is raised in a garden which again is the garden of your mind where the first Adam was created.  That naked first Adam is no longer in the garden, but the risen Christ who is now the gardener of the garden and is clothed in white linen.

Sorry for the rambling which is probably not important to anyone but it is the direction my mind goes when I ponder such things.
CIY

[chuckt]

Remember Christ is crucified in Golgotha, in the skull, which is in your head.  He is raised in a garden which again is the garden of your mind where the first Adam was created.  That naked first Adam is no longer in the garden, but the risen Christ who is now the gardener of the garden and is clothed in white linen.

greetings.

i like that anology. woot woot 



chuckt

[eggi]

Hi Matthew,

Perhaps John did not really know what Christ's mission really was, could it be that he also thought Jesus was going to set up a physical earthly kingdom rather than a heavenly spiritual kingdom?

Was John disappointed, confused, upset, even angry at Jesus as he sat in prison? I think we sometimes think these men we read about in the scriptures were on some totally higher spiritual plane than we are, that they of themselves were able to overcome the natural, carnal emotional thinking that plague us so consistantly.

Of course the apostles reached unique spiritual heights after Pentecost and no sacrifice was too big even up to martyrdom, but the OT prophets and John the Baptist were not of the promise, they were all of the Old Covenant, the physical, ritualistic Covenant rather than the New (spiritual) Covenant.

So in light of all that in my opinion, yes, I can see that John at that point had some real doubts (as we all have suffered) and confusion about Jesus and what He was really accomplishing in His earthly ministry.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe 

Yeah, I too think John had doubts. he wanted a clear answer. For sure all people knew about Jesus' miracles, but perhaps John didn't expect to end up in jail, maybe he had hopes that Jesus would kick out the Romans. There were many Jewish leaders who had a militaristic approach in those days... when would Jesus do this? Must have been very hard for John.

[chuckt]

Im thinking John knew exactly that Jesus was the Christ, and im thinking he sent his men to ask Jesus the question
not for him but thinking Jesus needed to be reminded John was in prison and like come on man come and get me out of here. you didnt forget me did you? i know you have power.....whatcha waiting for,......

so yup i think you guys are right about the carnal thing and poor johns false expectations...

yall have a good weekend and be safe.

peace
chuckt

[sansmile]

Hi all,
What comes to mind here is that John  at this point was NOT converted. As Uncle Beau said, they had not yet been baptised of the Holy Spirit.

(Luk 22:32)  But I have prayed for you, that your faith fail not. And when you are converted, strengthen your brothers.

and what did peter say:

(Luk 22:33)  And he said to Him, Lord, I am ready to go with You, both into prison and into death.
 
and yet shortly after Peter denied Him 2 times.
All the apostles were still carnally minded  until they were converted,,then the spirit of Christ the parakletos entered their heart,

God Bless
Sansmile

[Martinez]

John 4:2
2(Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

Is this saying that Jesus baptised his disciples only?  Something to ponder.

On the John the Baptist subject, I go back to Ray's Spiritual Truth #8 and realize John is me.  The process of being saved, that Ray states is "the hardest thing we will ever do in this age", has the phase in it where you are still in bondage to the ruler of this world.  You think you have found Jesus and everything is going to be great from that moment on and every day seems to be worst than the day before.  You get to thinking is this really the truth?  Is this the true Christ?  When this happens you need encouragement and a reminder that Christ coming is spiritual food.  Christ's coming is not meat and potatoes and every comfort of this world.  The world stays the same your perspective of the world changes, but it is a process and will not be complete until you have had your head cut off so that you can then have the mind of Christ.   And this will happen over and over until the end comes.

Remember Christ is crucified in Golgotha, in the skull, which is in your head.  He is raised in a garden which again is the garden of your mind where the first Adam was created.  That naked first Adam is no longer in the garden, but the risen Christ who is now the gardener of the garden and is clothed in white linen.

Sorry for the rambling which is probably not important to anyone but it is the direction my mind goes when I ponder such things.
CIY

Hey there CIY,

This is a great post!

[Matt]

Thanks all! 
I have read over these verses so many times without realizing any of this.
I guess I still have Hollywood's interpretation of many biblical people in my head
It is great to be able to come here without fear of ridicule or rejection

Matt

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Matt,

I agree. many fine responses here in this thread. The bottom line is that there was no one at all who understood what the mission of Christ would ultimately be, it is quite apparent that the disciples and multitudes that followed Him believed He was here to establish an earthly kingdom.

There is nothing that I can see where John knew or believed any differently, even Peter did not know what the Lord's true mission was, he (Peter) was blinded by the conventional wisdom of the day where the reward/kingdom was in the flesh here on the physical earth (kind of like what many churches promote).

Coincidently (?) we have this shown in the Book of Matthew;

Mat 16:21  From that time forth began Jesus to show unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Mat 16:22  Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

Mat 16:23  But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offense unto me: for thou savorest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

His Peace to you,

Joe

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hey Joe

That caution to NOT savour the things, thoughts, conclusions, ideas, interpretations and beliefs of mankind, which are manifestations of Satans personality.....well THAT is very important and the visual evidence of this manifested approval based society, is all around us.

I notice that your posts number 3010 as do mine at this posting. Just an observation....no competition, not a prediction and no imaginations but maybe this is a time and date....Will have to see...The Kingdom of God is at hand

Peace to you Brother
Arc

[mharrell08]

Hello All:

The one thing I did not see within anyone's post was a spiritual match! From Spiritual Truth #7 of the 12 God-given truths to understanding His Word is to "compare spiritual with spiritual". But when looking through scriptures for a match as "no scripture is of its own interpetation", this scripture goes hand and hand with what most of you posted anyways.

Matt. 13:21

Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended

I was thinking this is a great thread but the thought came to me yesterday that there was not a scriptural & spiritual match posted. I think everyone's response though lined up with this scriptural truth nonetheless. If I am off based and just missed the match please forgive me "for I know not what I do" 


Marques

[vanityandvexation]

John 4:2
2(Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

Is this saying that Jesus baptised his disciples only?  Something to ponder.

On the John the Baptist subject, I go back to Ray's Spiritual Truth #8 and realize John is me.  The process of being saved, that Ray states is "the hardest thing we will ever do in this age", has the phase in it where you are still in bondage to the ruler of this world.  You think you have found Jesus and everything is going to be great from that moment on and every day seems to be worst than the day before.  You get to thinking is this really the truth?  Is this the true Christ?  When this happens you need encouragement and a reminder that Christ coming is spiritual food.  Christ's coming is not meat and potatoes and every comfort of this world.  The world stays the same your perspective of the world changes, but it is a process and will not be complete until you have had your head cut off so that you can then have the mind of Christ.   And this will happen over and over until the end comes.

Remember Christ is crucified in Golgotha, in the skull, which is in your head.  He is raised in a garden which again is the garden of your mind where the first Adam was created.  That naked first Adam is no longer in the garden, but the risen Christ who is now the gardener of the garden and is clothed in white linen.

Sorry for the rambling which is probably not important to anyone but it is the direction my mind goes when I ponder such things.
CIY

CIY,

You're view is interesting...I think I understand. It seems as though you and Roy were not offended, or "caused to stumble," as Jesus warns in this passage.

You seem to have the prison figured out, as well as the question. I'm curious as to who the two disciples are? I'm also curious as to the spiritual significance of Jesus' answer?

[psalmsinger]

Marques,

Thanks fro bringing that scripture to my attention!  I think it is in times of trouble that we are most likely to stumble in disbelief (disobedience).  John's disciples were most likely going through a period of unbelief seeing their spiritual leader in such a predicament. John was wise for pointing them to Jesus Christ at him impending death and Jesus was kind and wise when he sent news of His miracles to give hope and comfort.  He certainly didn't treat the repentant believers like he did the scribes and pharisees who asked for a "sign".   When we are looking through the veil of tribulation and persecution in this life it is hard to see that God is working Good in us.  It is good to stay in the Light where we truly love God and our brothers where it is much, much harder to stumble at the Word.  Thanks to all for a good thread.

1 Pet 2:6-8
6   Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7   Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8   And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
(KJV)


I Jn 2:10
10   He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.


Rest in the Lord,
Barbara






Hello All:

The one thing I did not see within anyone's post was a spiritual match! From Spiritual Truth #7 of the 12 God-given truths to understanding His Word is to "compare spiritual with spiritual". But when looking through scriptures for a match as "no scripture is of its own interpetation", this scripture goes hand and hand with what most of you posted anyways.

Matt. 13:21

Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended

I was thinking this is a great thread but the thought came to me yesterday that there was not a scriptural & spiritual match posted. I think everyone's response though lined up with this scriptural truth nonetheless. If I am off based and just missed the match please forgive me "for I know not what I do" 


Marques

[ciy]

V and V

I am not teaching.  I am only discussing what this says to me. 

Matthew 11:3 states when John was in prison, he sent two of his disciples to Jesus with this question,
" Are thou he that should come, or do we look for another?"
4Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
5The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
6And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

We are all in spiritual bondage to the world system of this age or bablyon.  The 2 disciples are 2 witnesses to prove who Jesus is, and His reply is in reference to spiritually blind, deaf, sick, dead, etc people who are being shown the truth of the gospel. 

John is that flesh man that is still looking for a physical kingdom and wanting out of a physical prison.  He must decrease and the the spiritual man of Jesus must increase so that the truth will grow.

CIY

[Roy Monis]

UncleBeau I believe you have hit the nail right on the head and I think it has gone right home and fixed the problem.

God bless

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy

[vanityandvexation]

V and V

I am not teaching.  I am only discussing what this says to me. 

Matthew 11:3 states when John was in prison, he sent two of his disciples to Jesus with this question,
" Are thou he that should come, or do we look for another?"
4Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
5The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
6And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

We are all in spiritual bondage to the world system of this age or bablyon.  The 2 disciples are 2 witnesses to prove who Jesus is, and His reply is in reference to spiritually blind, deaf, sick, dead, etc people who are being shown the truth of the gospel. 

John is that flesh man that is still looking for a physical kingdom and wanting out of a physical prison.  He must decrease and the the spiritual man of Jesus must increase so that the truth will grow.

CIY

CIY,

Thank you for that reply. It is really enlightening. I haven't read all the other posts completely, but yours is the only one that actually makes sense to me. I don't feel like there is any other explanation here that matters other than the allegory of our own journey from carnality to being like-minded, if you will.

What is wrong with being a teacher? You are really knowledgable.